Bittorrent under attack

[Tom]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4096013.stm

Cocklords. Sorry if I'm swearing lots recently, but it seems that common sense has totally left the building.

If they want to sort the problem out, they should fuckoff to SE Asia and the Baltic states, and make some noise there. Not try to prosecute a few thousand computer geeks and the related websites who know how to download over BT.

 

[Cask]

They're definitely having an impact. sharereactor which was one of the major edonkey sites is now offline with the owner pending investigation. After that went down a lot of the community started using shareconnector which is now also offline due to their server being seized.

They can't possibly hope to stop illegal filesharing as the communities can just scale back, filtering back to smaller sites, FTPs and IRC but they can drive it back underground a bit more. To be fair those warez megasites are taking the piss a bit sticking a nice friendly GUI on pirating stuff.

/has spent £75 on DVDs this christmas.

 

[oblimov]

they cant stop bittorrent as its a technology thats being "abused" by people, also its used for a lot of legitimate things such as the World Of Warcraft files

 

[Cask]

I'd imagine that they're aware of that which is why they are targeting websites that publish the links.

 

[Cyfr]

Was on Newsnight a few days ago, was such bullcrap, they were crying about how much money they were losing, because everyone who downloads illegal files would buy them if they didn't download!

I admit I download stuff, i'm 16 and simply can't afford to splash out £30-40 for a game/movie I might not even like, i'll try the product first, if I like it i'll buy it (even tho I still think £40 is extreamly expensive for what games are these days)

They had the creator of BT on, he basicly said theres nothing they can do really, new sites will always open and protection can always be broken because at one point it has to be decrypted so the legit end user can view the product..

 

[Brynn]

I download some tracks too - however if i like the tune i downloaded i would go out and buy the album.

Hoever some of my mates go overboard with like 6 gig of downloaded stuff.

 

[oblimov]

i rarely turn my pc off and dload on average bout 5gb a week of random movies, tv shows, games, mp3s etc

If there was anything i really liked i would go buy it but the majority of it doesnt warrant the cash it would cost me

Its interesting why they think that all these people would do the downloads rather than go to the cinema etc, i would much rather see a film in the cinema than at home, i think its just a way film makers can justify why their films appear shite when looking at the takings

 

[Whipped]

I primarily use BitTorrent to download the latest tv shows from the states. Smallville, Lost, Enterprise, etc. I don't see a problem with this at all. I'll no doubt watch them again when Sky One shows them and I'll usually by the DVD box sets if there's some good extras on there.

 

[Trem]

I own a film rental shop(previously called a video shop).

All I can say is ABOUT FUCKING TIME

Oh yeah, before you all start having ago at me I would like you to actually think about the impact on my business that piracy is having, I am in a UK video dealers forum and there isn't many left there as they have all had to close down primarily due to piracy.

The problem is that people will buy/download any shit quality film just so they can say "already seen that" because they think that makes their cocks bigger or their birds uber sexy.

Seriously people will squint their way through a film....often wondering if it really is Jebus on the cross or Bill Odie in pants in the film about Christ that they are watching, just so they can say "I've seen that".

If anyone has a problem with my point of view on this then tough fucking tits.

Put yourself in my position, FACT are prosecuting rental dealers because they are renting retail versions of films rather than vastly dearer rental copies that are released on the same day as the retail version.

While at every car boot sale in the country there is at least 3 stalls selling pirate films. But get this, as tax payers all us dealers are paying for FACT to prosecute us and do nothing about piracy......NOTHING

 

[Tom]

In all seriousness Trem, can you attribute the fall in business at video shops purely to illegal downloading?

There has been a massive rise in cinema audiences over the last 10 years, add to that Sky Movies, freeview, and there aren't really that many more reasons to go to a video shop anymore. You can already download films legally in the states, it won't be long before you can do the same here, and with media centres being linked directly into the television, the only reason you'd need a video shop is to buy some popcorn.

The market stall holders are just lazy fuckwits, but they would use the same excuses 'too expensive, mortgage to pay etc'. Not lumping them into the same category, because in my original post its clear that they're the ones causing the loss in revenue to the film companies (nowhere more so than in SE Asia).

I sympathise with your position, but my concience is clear (looking at the 100+ DVDs on my shelf), video shops have only been around since the advent of the home VCR. Now that there are many more choices, its not surprising that they're dying out.

 

[Trem]

You would be surprised how many people don't pay for Sky movies due to the constant repeats thats on there. I have had many customers return saying that they have cancelled their subscription.

To be totally and completely honest here Tom, I can yes I can attribute the fall of business to piracy. The drop in the takings came when the dvd-r media dropped in price, if you were to look at my books its all too obvious.

Also the birth of dvd players contributes greatly to it. There was always pirate vhs but it was such a ballache most normal people just didn't bother.

Honestly, I'm not bleeting here, it's piracy thats fucking us up.

 

[FuzzyLogic]

There's also the glut of online DVD rental sites that have been popping up for the last year or so. I know I stopped going to the local vid shop altogether when I subscribed to Tescos own.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

One thing you're forgetting is cost Trem. How much does it cost to rent a movie for 2 nights, close to a fiver I imagine?

Now, spend 10 minutes on the internet and you can buy a legit DVD of it for a tenner. Which is then yours for life.

Renting's not a bad idea, but it's so ridiculously overpriced it's not even worth considering. People are beginning to realise this massive waste of money. Most people I know would spend a fiver more on a DVD and own it and run the risk of it being a bit rubbish and later sell it on than spend a fiver on watching a film once and returning it straight away. There's no sense of value. The cinema is a couple of quid more than a rental but you get a top quality big screen, huge impressive sound etc.

Rental just holds no value for money any more, that coupled with people's willingness to put up with dire quality screeners is doing it IMO Trem, there's a lot more in play than just piracy.

 

[harebear]

With the rise in high speed internet connections in the future I bet most media rental will be done online.

 

[kingcon]

I really don’t think illegal downloading has had that much of a financial impact on the music and film industry! Aren’t sales for CDs actually UP this year?? So what? That leaves their total profits for the year at only £900 Gagilion? Boo-hoo.

Prices for DVDs etc have been completely unjustifiably high over the past few years. With the creation of companies like play.com and cd-wow etc. prices have fallen. This wouldn’t of happened without illegal downloads as their would be no incentive for companies to try and entice the buyer back / change their pricing. Without p2p file sharing we as consumers would have no choice but to sit back and accept what the industry charge for their goods.

 

[DaGaffer]

i
If there was anything i really liked i would go buy it but the majority of it doesnt warrant the cash it would cost me

That just about sums it up - the doublethink of illegal downloaders never ceases to amaze me; it "doesn't warrant the cash" but you still downloaded and watched it; can't you see the flaw in your logic?

I admit I download stuff, i'm 16 and simply can't afford to splash out £30-40 for a game/movie I might not even like, i'll try the product first, if I like it i'll buy it (even tho I still think £40 is extreamly expensive for what games are these days)

Yeah, well the choice is not buy something if you can't afford it. It's like you all think you have a 'right' to be entertained for nowt.

If you saw a chav sticking DVDs up his shellsuit in woolies you'd be appalled, but because you're cleverer than a chav and know how to use a PC, then pinching stuff is OK...

 

[kingcon]

You make for a strong argument DaGaffer and i would like to subscribe to your news letter... hehe sorry. Yeah i agree with what you said but don’t you feel these retailers etc. have been taking us for chumps for years and years? I’m not saying stealing through pc or as a chav is right, but what else could you do apart from not buy it? Or did i just answer my own question... hmmm ill have to go away now and think about that

 

[Cyfr]

If you saw a chav sticking DVDs up his shellsuit in woolies you'd be appalled, but because you're cleverer than a chav and know how to use a PC, then pinching stuff is OK...

I am not stealing, i'm breaching copyright. The shop loses no money. If I like the video/game whatever, i'll go buy it, so the shop profits, but it never loses money because I simply won't pay silly money for something that I may not even like.

Where as a chav stealing the actual product from a shop, makes the shop lose money because they can no longer sell the product, and they have paid for it. Thats the difference.

 

[Ch3tan]

Good, piracy is theft, no matter how you try to justify it.

And Cyfr, if you cant afford something you shouldnt get to have it. Money is spent and made producing these things, we live in a commercial world, nothing is free -and people have a right to protect their investments.

 

[Trem]

I really don’t think illegal downloading has had that much of a financial impact on the music and film industry! Aren’t sales for CDs actually UP this year?? So what? That leaves their total profits for the year at only £900 Gagilion? Boo-hoo.

Prices for DVDs etc have been completely unjustifiably high over the past few years. With the creation of companies like play.com and cd-wow etc. prices have fallen. This wouldn’t of happened without illegal downloads as their would be no incentive for companies to try and entice the buyer back / change their pricing. Without p2p file sharing we as consumers would have no choice but to sit back and accept what the industry charge for their goods.

I don't agree with this in the slightest. My shop is selling the double Harry Potter 3 dvd for £8.99......extortionate?

Play.com and Cd Wow do not pay VAT, that is why they can do stuff cheaper. It is all controlled by the studios and suppliers, you want to know how I know this.....because I can go and buy a new release dvd from Asda for less than I get them trade. You see the studios do the big boys stuff a shitload cheaper. Now you may say thats because they buy so many, but I fucking well would buy a shitload more stuff if I got it the prices they do.

Oh and Blockbuster get their stuff on revenue share, which means that they pay a tiny amount for a product then they return it after a period, this used to be available to all rental shops but the studios and wholesalers decided that they would keep it just for BB. That is why BB have so many copies of stuff on their shelves and that is why if they don't have what you want you get it free, because basically they ain't paying nowt for that film.

All this is really interesting, it gives me a customers view on things.

I know all my customers think I'm loaded....think again, I probably take home less than my staff and I am counting the days until Samm goes back to work.

Personally I don't think that online rental damages me, half my customers struggle to tie their shoelaces.

Piracy is harming trade. I bought 3 SHrek 2 dvds when it was released, I bought 3 Finding Nemo when it was released, I bought 4 Thunderbirds. The first shrek we bought 30 copies, first Toy Story(comparing to FN) we bought 30 copies and so on. Shrek 2 has not rented at all yet Scooby Doo 2(not a good pirate available)has flown off the shelves.

I guess you need to be there to realise what piracy is doing.

 

[Trem]

Cyfr - Your attitude is the same as alot of peoples. You ARE stealing.

 

[nath]

But it's not as simple as lumping together breach of copyright and theft.

If I want to watch an movie that I don't want to pay for, they're not losing money by me downloading it. If I didn't have the opportunity to watch it for free I decide not to pay for it and thus not watch it, no one is actually losing money. The MPAA and the RIAA always say "XXXbn$ losses due to piracy!! " but they're calculating how much money they've lost based on the assumption that without the chance to download it the "pirates" would buy it instead, that's simply absolutely bollocks.

I'm sorry, but I've no sympathy for the MPAA or the RIAA - if they want their business back they can fuckingwell make it worth buying their product rather than downloading it. As it was said before - Albums sales are higher than they've ever been, they're losing money on single sales and tbh imo that's just because people have worked out they're shit value.

 

[Louster]

It's not a black-and-white issue. Nothing ever is, and seeing it as one is being utterly and pointlessly blinkered.
My dad runs a small-time music promotion and distribution business, and a friend of his, living with us at the moment, is (or was, in the 70s/80s) a pretty well known music photographer, who's fallen on hard times recently because of the state of the industry. Conversations about this kind of thing, mainly in context of music piracy, come up all the time.

Part of the problem is that corporations have systematically fucked up the industry in pursuit of profit. They spend the biggest chunk of their capital "creating" and marketing endless streams of "fashionable" bands, with no real merit or talent, most of whom will flop - but the few that succeed easily make up for all the cost. It leaves very little room for anything risky (AKA imaginative/unusual/worthwhile) and hence lots of people don't give a crap about "causing" them to lose money, even if they enjoy what's produced. Plus, the reliance of this system on costly studio productions, rather than making money by actually performing, doesn't help - you can't really pirate the atmosphere of a performance.

Also, it's almost impossible for small-time/independent musicians to be harmed by piracy anyhow, as mostly only the famous bands are distributed illegally. In fact, it can be beneficial to an extent for the smaller bands, as a kind of free advertising - a "better quality" word of mouth. Since radio is massively controlled by corporations anyhow, all with their own interests naturally at heart, one of the best ways of increasing musicians' fame has all but disappeared.

Breach of copyright isn't literally the same as theft - if it was, we'd be using the same words for both of them. It's a law created to protect artists' interests, and sure, it should definitely be adhered to. However, nothing is ever black and white, and the people complaining the loudest about piracy - the corporations funding the periodic waves of lawsuits - really aren't entirely blameless.

 

[Ch3tan]

Your not actually hurting them though Nath, it's this attitude that everyone has a right to "preview" anything they want that is wrong. Trem hits the nail on the head. Real people, not your internet geeks, but the majority can get DVD's in most carparks and markets before they are released (in the case of Shrek 2, since before its cinema release). A lot of people are profiting from piracy, and a lto of epople who would have bought a film from a shop can quite easily buy or download it themselves for next to nothing.

My company sold shitloads of Shrek 1, more than anyone else (in the world I believe). When trying to drive pre-order sales for Shrek 2 on DVD, the majority of people said that they already had a copy - Fuck the MPAA and the RIAA, the loss of sales affects UK buisnesses more than it does them.

 

[Trem]

But it's not as simple as lumping together breach of copyright and theft.

If I want to watch an movie that I don't want to pay for, they're not losing money by me downloading it. If I didn't have the opportunity to watch it for free I decide not to pay for it and thus not watch it, no one is actually losing money. The MPAA and the RIAA always say "XXXbn$ losses due to piracy!! " but they're calculating how much money they've lost based on the assumption that without the chance to download it the "pirates" would buy it instead, that's simply absolutely bollocks.

You are normally spot on Nathz0r......but you are waaaaaay off here.

We are not talking about you or me, we are talking about Dave and Sharon who used to rent off me but now they just buy their films from the car boot every Sunday, they then lend those films to their mates who copies it and so on.

 

[Louster]

The context of the thread is mainly BitTorrent, though - not dodgy carboot copies, which are obviously going to be shit and are obviously losing people money, seeing as how money is being made by people other than the artists and producers.

 

[Tom]

I know its an emotive subject for you Trem, and I agree with what you're saying to a point. I just don't believe that people downloading films for their own entertainment are the root of the problem. Like you said, its the wanky market traders who flog pirate DVDs that are the real problem.

I use the local Global Video (I refuse to use BB) shop when I want to watch a film. Its borderline though, because there are films I rent that I missed at the pictures, but there are also the films that have token value only (Van Helsing and such) that I won't pay a penny to watch.

I seriously think that the idea of owning something tangible like a DVD or a CD is on its way out. Market forces will one day create a system whereby you can sit in your front room and choose from tens of thousands of films/programmes/etc, and pay a pound or two for the privilege.

 

[Ch3tan]

Shit? Most of the movies flying around are rips of the DVD, they are the same quality. The people that are selling these copies are the same people that think it's alright to download what they like, and they have the same mentality as those that run filesharing networks and sites knowing full well what they are making avialable.

 

[Trem]

So you don't think that alot of the stuff on car boots comes from Suprnova then Louster?

I'm serious when I say this, but if business carries on like this then I will be closing down mid next year.

Rental does have a limited life, I know this, but it would be a lot longer life without piracy, Bit torrent, eDonkey etc.

I'm done, I can say no more.

Looks like me and Ch3t(who works for a game company), are gonna have to stand alone on this.

All I can say is this Tom - how would you feel if the people that hire you were to hire some bloke and his camcorder instead?

 

[nath]

We are not talking about you or me, we are talking about Dave and Sharon who used to rent off me but now they just buy their films from the car boot every Sunday, they then lend those films to their mates who copies it and so on.

Right fair enough, but how do we know it's internet piracy that's causing that so much. My dad is/was working on a solution (well, something to help combat at least) the problem of mass produced pirate media. He did some research and found out that that's really the big one, shedloads is lost because these mass produced dvd's/cd's that come over from asia (as Tom said) are sold dirt cheap over here. That has very little to do with the net.

Anyway, I think perhaps we're arguing different points here - I don't disagree that your average joe buying dvd's at carboot sales could be harming business, but we don't know that BT etc. has anything to do with that.

Shit? Most of the movies flying around are rips of the DVD, they are the same quality.

Actually more often than not they're downsampled to fit on DVD5 media, though your generally average joe won't notice the difference. </pedant>