Bittorrent under attack

[Trem]

Well yeah, apparently there is a new form of copy protection on its way. I would be interested for your dad to give some comments actually Nath, that is something I would be very interested in.

It only takes one bloke to crack it though and they can't copy protect some geezer in the cinema with a camcorder.


Jesus, my fingers are gonna start bleeding at this rate.

 

[nath]

Actually it's nothing to do with copy protection - it's to do with shipping, though I've been sworn to secrecy about it - nothing is patented yet, so I can't really say much more than that.

 

[Ch3tan]

Not a games company Tom, but I deal with all the entertainment stuff, so it does annoy me when a customer doesnt want to buy something because they openly admit to having downloaded it or have bought a pirated version. Yeah, not always the same quality Nath, but good enough for Joe public.

Cutting off the options people have to download things themselves will lead to more of them buying illegal copies, and hopefully that will become the next thing that is tackled.

 

[Louster]

So you don't think that alot of the stuff on car boots comes from Suprnova then Louster?

Not so much, no. It was mostly videos from America being taken to fucked up foreign countries, mass duplicated, and imported into the UK (as Tom and nath have both said.)

Another aspect of the problem is the unwillingness of all the big-time corporations to adapt to the Internet. It's only just beginning now, and the systems set up are still generally utterly primitive. Using Internet file-sharing as a scapegoat is pretty silly. I do actually believe that if a convenient and worthwhile (in terms of cost to the customer) legal alternative was made available over the Internet, most people would happily switch, and end up with better quality stuff and no moral qualms. It would certainly leave the customer much better off than if they'd spent money on a pirate copy.

 

[Tom]

All I can say is this Tom - how would you feel if the people that hire you were to hire some bloke and his camcorder instead?

This happens more often than you would think. Watch daytime telly. Fortunately though, the bloke with the camcorder can't possibly compete with the work that I do, and he never shall. Next Jan I'm off to Valencia to film a formula one car using a 1000mm + lens, and a super slo mo video camera. That takes a bit of skill

 

[Trem]

Not so much, no. It was mostly videos from America being taken to fucked up foreign countries, mass duplicated, and imported into the UK (as Tom and nath have both said.)

Another aspect of the problem is the unwillingness of all the big-time corporations to adapt to the Internet. It's only just beginning now, and the systems set up are still generally utterly primitive. Using Internet file-sharing as a scapegoat is pretty silly. I do actually believe that if a convenient and worthwhile (in terms of cost to the customer) legal alternative was made available over the Internet, most people would happily switch, and end up with better quality stuff and no moral qualms. It would certainly leave the customer much better off than if they'd spent money on a pirate copy.

I could do you a list of real customers who come into my shop and say "I don't want that, I got it off Suprnova weeks ago"

I could name 20 right now off the top of my head.

Like I said I guess you have to be there to realise.

 

[Trem]

This happens more often than you would think. Watch daytime telly. Fortunately though, the bloke with the camcorder can't possibly compete with the work that I do, and he never shall. Next Jan I'm off to Valencia to film a formula one car using a 1000mm + lens, and a super slo mo video camera. That takes a bit of skill

But thats my point luv, your work is better quality as are the tools, but what I'm saying is if the BBC went all joe public and decided that they would rather pay slightly less for worse quality.

 

[Tom]

Well that happens now, just watch any daytime tv program, most of it will be shot on a PD170, the rest on a DSR-500. Nearly all my camerawork is for sport, and you just can't undercut and get away with it when it comes to sport, its not possible.

I do about 150 days a year, probably 50-60 of those are camerawork, the rest sound. The sound is getting more and more difficult, its developing into a niche, mainly because producers don't understand the difference between clipping a lapel mic onto an interviewee and plugging it into the back of the camera, or paying several hundred quid for me to turn up with tens of thousands of pounds of gear and a pair of ears that knows what sounds right and what sounds crap. Thats probably the best parallel I could draw between professional and consumer standards, the main difference being that I have pretty much a guaranteed job, because I just follow the niche route for sound, and sport will always be on telly.

I guess what I'm saying is that people will always watch movies on telly, its just how they get hold of them that changes. The video industry needs to adapt to this, unfortunately the smaller trader such as yourself Trem won't be able to take part of this, as you don't own a broadcasting network :/

 

[Cyfr]

Cyfr - Your attitude is the same as alot of peoples. You ARE stealing.

No, I am not.

 

[Tom]

So what are you doing Cyfr? At least I own up to it.

 

[nath]

As someone has said before, stealing is taking away from someone, speaking personally - that's not what I'm doing. However, I never have and never will claim that I'm in the right, I just don't see it as a big deal - because it's not. However I'm not saying all piracy is not a big deal.

 

[kingcon]

I don't agree with this in the slightest. My shop is selling the double Harry Potter 3 dvd for £8.99......extortionate?

I meant when DVDs first came out etc, prices wouldn’t have fallen so much to today’s levels without the “big boys” being forced to by external factors.

 

[Cyfr]

So what are you doing Cyfr? At least I own up to it.

Breaking copyright law, it's not stealing. If I was stealing i'd be making the company lose money. Don't get me wrong, i'm still in the wrong, it's just not stealing.

 

[Tom]

Breaking copyright law, it's not stealing. If I was stealing i'd be making the company lose money. Don't get me wrong, i'm still in the wrong, it's just not stealing.

So just how many films have you watched and thought "fuck me thats ace" and gone out and bought?

Copyright infringement may be the technical term, but if I caught you in my house watching my tv, but doing no harm, do you think I wouldn't be justified to take a bat to your head?

 

[nath]

Oh come on, it's a little different. And the question is not whether he thought it was ace after watching it, it's if he didn't have the opportunity to download it, would he have bought it.

 

[Cyfr]

Well yes infact Tom, I have just asked for LOTR trilogy dvd after watching 2 in cinema and 1 at home. I bought Fahrenheit 9/11 for my grandma after I watched it and thought it was good (however I guess that don't count as Moore encouraged people to pirate it )
Some recent games i bought include Doom3, Battlefield vietnam, Dawn of war, LOTR battle for middle earth, I played nearly all of these before buying them to see if they were any good.

 

[Trem]

No, I am not.

Well if you say you aren't stealing then I guess you aren't. Wow I didn't know the law worked like that, it will be a whole new era for burglars and muggers.

"I wasn't stealing officer because I say I aren't"

"ok sonny off you go then"

At least give a decent answer Cyfr. I have never had a go at you before I have never jumped on the anti Cyfr bandwagon, but now I can see what annoyed people so much about you. Isn't there a teen forum you can go to. Maybe one that talks about voices breaking and strange hairs growing around genitals.

 

[DaGaffer]

Breaking copyright law, it's not stealing. If I was stealing i'd be making the company lose money. Don't get me wrong, i'm still in the wrong, it's just not stealing.

No, breaking copyright law is stealing. And you are denying the company you infringe content from the ability to sell it to you legitimately. You may say, "well, I wouldn't buy it anyway", but that's irrelevant, you've denied them the opportunity, and you've taken something without their permission, which is by definition, theft.

 

[nath]

To take would suggest that they don't have it anymore - that's not the case. If you weren't going to buy it anyway then it's a valid point. No one is suggesting that software pirates are on the right side of the law, but as far as I'm concerned it's a far less offensive crime than actual stealing. I mean come on, tell me you've never copied an audio tape off a mate back in the day, everyone did. It's about as bad as that, if you ask me (i.e. not very bad at all).

 

[Cyfr]

Well if you say you aren't stealing then I guess you aren't. Wow I didn't know the law worked like that, it will be a whole new era for burglars and muggers.

"I wasn't stealing officer because I say I aren't"

"ok sonny off you go then"

At least give a decent answer Cyfr. I have never had a go at you before I have never jumped on the anti Cyfr bandwagon, but now I can see what annoyed people so much about you. Isn't there a teen forum you can go to. Maybe one that talks about voices breaking and strange hairs growing around genitals.

and I always respected you for not jumping on the cyfr bandwagon, but I don't agree with you on this particular subject, i'm sorry trem.
I don't belive it's stealing, your opinions are different I guess, I just am not prepared to pay for things which may well turn out to be a load of crap, which a lot of films/games seem to be now. If I enjoy the film/game i'm happy to support the developers (£40 is a bit steep I still think, but thats what they are asking and if I enjoy their product im happy to pay it).

I'm truly sorry if your rental shop is not doing as well as it used to, I don't know what prices you use, but I know BB charge something like £4-5 for 2 nights, as someone mentioned you can buy it for not much more..
Thats the reason I stoped getting things from rental places, i stoped going to them way before I found out you could download things from the net, hell I didn't even have a PC then.

I've repeated myself I don't know how many times in this post and this thread, i've explained why I don't think it's stealing so i think thats a decent answer enough for you trem, even if you can't agree with it..

 

[AcesHigh]

Something for nothing

Well seeing as its alright to put rental stores out of business lets see if there are any mechanics,painters & decorators,or builders on the site.
If there are I buys the bricks paint ect & you can all build me a house..seeing as you all see the entertainment industry & everything it produces for free.How about all you freeloaders work for free for 6 months & then sit back & watch me make a good size wedge of cash for renting out the house you built.Did not think you were so eager on that one...must be the territory of the internet a mass of freeloading sad fucks who contribute fuck all to the business...lets see how you feel when you need an operation & because of a short fall in taxes due to many business' going under & not paying business rates where that leaves you
THINK ABOUT IT ....MOVIES ARE NOT FOR FREE!!!! uke:

 

[Trem]

Yes a better answer.

Was all I wanted.

I fear your way of thinking is the same as many peoples.

 

[Trem]

Oooh ay up Aces

Feels good to swear don't it chum.

 

[Falcon]

Stealing is removing one object from it's owner, pirating is completely different to stealing in that you're duplicating not removing. Stealing causes loss to someone but ironically, in pirating something from the net the only loss is the time it takes the pirate to download and any bandwidth costs on both the host and the downloader. You cannot put stealing and pirating in the same boat, they're two completely different animals.

Now onto my personal opinion on piracy. When I was younger I used to pirate and I had no income to buy games and CDs, now that I'm a bit older and working I buy quality games and DVDs, I do however still pirate. However, the situations I pirate under, whilst admittedly not legal are, in my personal opinion justified:
- Situation 1: I don't agree with the gap between US and UK DVD/film releases, I'll therefore download a copy of a film until the DVD is released in the UK at which point I'll buy it, this goes for games too.
- Situation 2: Quite frankly, some films are complete and utter shite. I downloaded I,Robot for example and thought it was absolutely brilliant, I then immediately went to play.com and got it ordered. On the other hand there have been some films that have been utter shite and I've said to myself "Thank god I didn't waste any money on that", I don't see why I should be tricked into buying a film only to find it's complete and utter crap, trailers are 100% hype and don't give a good idea and a lot of reviews are questionable to say the least. Being tricked into buying something that really wasn't worth it is arguably more harmful to me than me downloading it to try it first is to them.
- Situation 3: The odd film, usually made for TV stuff has never been released in a digital format, if someone's put it into digital format I'll download it, if it's good and ever comes out on DVD then sure of course I'll buy it.

I'm paid pretty well so I've spent a lot on films, games, books and music despite still pirating some stuff, I don't feel that I don't give the media industries my fair share of cash, I most certainly do, probably more than a lot of people with around £3,000 worth of books and another £5,000 of DVDs in my house.

Piracy being to blame for the fall of video rental shops is a joke quite frankly, whilst I'm not denying they have some blame it sure as hell can't even be half blamed on that. Video rental costs what, £3 or something to rent for a night, maybe a bit less. If I wait 6months after release for a film I can pick it up and keep it forever for £4 more than that, if I want it earlier sure I might have to pay up to £14 but again, at least I can keep it forever and watch it as many times as I want to for that. I like going to the cinema but again, if I take a girl to the cinema with me or something it costs more to watch it that once than it costs to watch a DVD.

Fact is, for someone like me who likes to watch a lot of films and likes to watch them a few times over too, video rental shops are just an absolute rip off and the cinema is even worse, at least with the cinema you get a nice big screen, a decent sound system and decent refreshments.

Kids get paid for going to college in the UK now, lots have part time jobs too, if games, videos, books, music, rental wasn't such a rip off more people would buy it not pirate it and the industry would STILL make a profit, it just wouldn't be quite as big and it's that that upsets the fatcats and prevents it happening. Hell, drop films down some and even the shite ones that I think "Thank god I didn't pay for that" I wouldn't be so fussed about splashing out a few quid on.

 

[Ch3tan]

No Cyfr, your still missing the point. You are justifying downloading because you want to know what you are going to be paying for. Well, funnily enough thats what the cinema and rental shops are generally for, and game demo's. Freeloading **** is the only way you should be describing yourself, and thats not an insult thats just the way I see it.

I'm sure everyone has had the odd copied game or watched a copied movie and had mp3's they didnt own. Me included, but the fact that their is a whole culture of people who would quite happily never pay for anything is really shocking.

 

[AcesHigh]

Falcon
Points for you,your actually teling us you cant wait 4 - 6 weeks after the US releases..whats wrong you got something terminal.???
Secondly £ 3 for a movie thats going to entertain you for at least 2 Hrs compare that to a Big Mac meal which will cost you £3.79 & last 5 mins tops!!
Say your a Bond,Star Trek,Star Wars fan if the investors suddenly start to see slashing $100 + for a movie & getting back hardly anything do you think they will be arsed to carry on making those movies...no they will push for more lucrative cash making ventures such as 24Hr casinos where no one can fuck with there investments!!
...& what will you be left with ..a simple choice Coranation St,Eastendsers,or Emmerdale
Tell me what you can actually get these days for £3?? A pint & a packet of crisps if your lucky.

 

[DaGaffer]

To take would suggest that they don't have it anymore - that's not the case. If you weren't going to buy it anyway then it's a valid point. No one is suggesting that software pirates are on the right side of the law, but as far as I'm concerned it's a far less offensive crime than actual stealing. I mean come on, tell me you've never copied an audio tape off a mate back in the day, everyone did. It's about as bad as that, if you ask me (i.e. not very bad at all).

No, to take it away doesn't suggest they don't have it any more. Read what I said; What's been taken away is the opportunity to sell to the person whose downloaded it. That's the whole point of Intellectual Property and all the laws that go with it. This whole legal framework was set up precisely to say, "yes, using this IP without the owner's consent is theft". You may not agree with this, thinking "information wants to be free" or some such techno-utopian bollocks, but the reason IP laws were created was to give currency to ideas and creative works. End of story.

 

[nath]

You seem to be suggesting that I'm claiming that it's ok and shouldn't be illegal to download movies and pirate stuff. I'm not, it is wrong. The fact is though, it's not black and white - travelling at 71mph on a motorway is also breaking the law, do you get quite so angry about that?

 

[Falcon]

Falcon
Points for you,your actually teling us you cant wait 4 - 6 weeks after the US releases..whats wrong you got something terminal.???
Secondly £ 3 for a movie thats going to entertain you for at least 2 Hrs compare that to a Big Mac meal which will cost you £3.79 & last 5 mins tops!!
Say your a Bond,Star Trek,Star Wars fan if the investors suddenly start to see slashing $100 + for a movie & getting back hardly anything do you think they will be arsed to carry on making those movies...no they will push for more lucrative cash making ventures such as 24Hr casinos where no one can fuck with there investments!!
...& what will you be left with ..a simple choice Coranation St,Eastendsers,or Emmerdale
Tell me what you can actually get these days for £3?? A pint & a packet of crisps if your lucky.

Some films are much more than 4 - 6 weeks. I was in California back in March and watched Walking Tall at the cinema there, it's not due out in the UK until January the 17th, that's closer to 10months, and that's a hell of a lot more than the 4 - 6 weeks you're claiming.

Say your a Bond,Star Trek,Star Wars fan if the investors suddenly start to see slashing $100 + for a movie & getting back hardly anything do you think they will be arsed to carry on making those movies...no they will push for more lucrative cash making ventures such as 24Hr casinos where no one can fuck with there investments!!

If you beleive that you're naive and living in an absolute dreamworld, Hollywood's profits are actually up despite the supposed heavy increase in piracy of films. You seem like one of those people who's been horribly brainwashed by the media propaganda and have lost the ability to be able to make up your own mind. The facts and figures are out there, go see for yourself, despite the increases in piracy Hollywood is making more profit than ever before.

I suppose you're someone who also beleives Manhunt was the cause of that recent UK murder also because the media said so?

 

[Trem]

Actually falcon, Aces is a video dealer like me.

When you are in the business then you can pass such opinions imo of course. It makes me laugh how you know so much about what does and what doesn't affect my business. Own a video shop do you?