BD FG movie!
- Thread starter Bonehead
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First - Really great movie Bone. Had a blast watching it. As others have said, its nice to see a different setup now and again. And the "w000t how many people is that" effect you get from 15 skellies goes a long way in those oh so important first 3 sec's of a fight.
Seems like it has the power to be a viable alt. to the regular tank/ma or PB setup you see these days. (wont mention the "take what you can at TK" setup you also see)
Second - Riv, really nice post.
Third - never heard anyone whine over BD's before. Funny how it only takes 1 movie to get the comunity going. Im sure someone could make a movie with a case of really rare Thane fg's totally pwning some other group and people would go "WTF Thane's need n3rfzz like now or i cancel my sup!!1!1"
New patch is here - savages got hit, styles got changed, classes got lubbing. Give it at least a month to see how it affects the day to day emain setup.
Then you can whine.
Seems like it has the power to be a viable alt. to the regular tank/ma or PB setup you see these days. (wont mention the "take what you can at TK" setup you also see)
Second - Riv, really nice post.
Third - never heard anyone whine over BD's before. Funny how it only takes 1 movie to get the comunity going. Im sure someone could make a movie with a case of really rare Thane fg's totally pwning some other group and people would go "WTF Thane's need n3rfzz like now or i cancel my sup!!1!1"
New patch is here - savages got hit, styles got changed, classes got lubbing. Give it at least a month to see how it affects the day to day emain setup.
Then you can whine.
Bonehead
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Kami said:
I don't understand why you people are still talking about "kill the pets, and the BD are dead". Our group use the pets only for one thing and one thing alone. Interupting healers, like any other realm does. The healer pets heals is ~10% each 5 sec or something. It sure make a diffrence in 1vs1, but means nothing in FGvsFG...
We met a FG of albs in Odin's last night. They sure tried something new. Their MA and assist train started / tried to kill our pets, thinking about the same way you do. "If pets dies, we will win". They managed to kill 1 commander until all tanks was dead, leaving their clerics all by them self = free rp.
If was efficiant in one way tho. I laughed so much irl that i almost missed my one button LT...
rivan
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A few points:
If I've overstated the Enchanter class, I apologise, I've usually only been on the recieveing end that the dealing end of that particulat hibby. When making these comparrisons I was trying to do so without including RAs of such utility as MoC and BAoD etc, because they throw such imballance into the equation its almost impossible to rationalise an outcome. I didn't even include the Underhill in my overview of the fight either, of which the BD has no way of controlling- if he takes his attention away from the Enchanter for a split second he will end up dead.
I would say though, that and Enchanter isn't really a solo class? Correct me if i'm wrong, I've had more experience playing Mids and Albs than Hibs. It would be more common to see an Enchanter running as part of a group, i think, since they have a lot to offer with their PBAoE, their Speed, their Debuffs, and their Stun and to a lesser extent their nukes (which would often be baseline, so not that potent unless debuffed for), and their pet is not to be underestimated either with its ranged damage and interrupt potential, and of course they have the option to bring BAoD to the group.
I've not run into many solo Enchanters (to be honest I've not run into many solo players of any class), and the stark reality of the RvR situation at the moment is that most Bonedaners have to solo since they being almost nothing to a standard group. As someone said already in this thread, most players who play a Bonedancer would love to see changes made to the class that tone down our solo ability and rank up our groupability, but at the moment thats really not going to happen, no matter what we say to Mythic via the TLs.
If a class is going to be forced to solo, it needs to be equipped to solo, which the Bonedancer is, to an extent. Groups like the one shown in this video are effective, but are still extremly weak against CC. There's no Det with a group of Casters, no group purge, no BAoD, and no pet resists (and thus no healer pets.. which addmittedly isn't such a kick in the nuts with a few healers). They can 'wtfpwn' you, indeed they can, but they can get ripped to pieces too. People who scream 'nerf' after watching one video and perhaps a few encounters need to get some perspective and experience of the class in my humble opinion.
In the grande scheme of things you cannot define a class by a 3 second lifetap insta. The greater part of a Bonedancer's self-utility lies in his pets (which can be mezzed with great ease), so one insta-mez, or bolt range mez and the Bonedancer loses half his interrupt potential, a portion of his damage dealing potential, and a lot of his survivability; what remains in this situation is a cloth wearing Caster (who will have burned purge) who has a 3s Lifetap with a Body Debuff, and a massively unspecced baseline nuke.
The 3s Lifetap does NOT return enough HP to the Caster to keep him alive vs most melee damage (I don't mean a Fire Wizzy tapping you with his stick) against cloth armour, and certainly not against spec nukes.
Just to illustrate a point about the effects CC can have on a Bonedancer; I was running in Emain last night in a normal group. I suppose I was filling a spot that would usually be filled by a Savage.
We ran into a group of Albs not far from MTK, so it was a nice 8v8 scrap. Trying to fulfill my roll as interrupter, once I'd assessed the situation, I sent my Commander [who takes the healers with him, doh!] to interrupt an Alb caster (i'm not sure exactly what kind he was, but he heas an AoE root). The fight continued with me trying to keep Casters interrupted. The Caster that my Commander was hitting (for like no damage i might add), QC-AoE Rooted, so stuck my pets to the spot. The fight was over pretty soon after, as we polished off the remaining tanks, quickly rebuffed and headed towards the mile gate.
Ofc I then found myself unaffected by Skald speed, nor could I use MCL, getting the 'You are still in combat' message. Irritatingly I hadn't noticed my commander and healers were still rooted to the spot, and thus considered in combat. I had to wait the duration of the full root (with combat rate mana regen, and unable to mcl) to get them back, not having the power to summon and buff three more pets. Luck would have it they were back by the time we were zerged by 2fg Albs
Thats the kind of thing i meant when I said that the pets were a great strength and an extraordinary weakness.
I guess what all this gumf is trying to say, is that a Bonedancer can be a great soloer, can be useful in a group, but like most classes has its achillies heel. Take away from it, and you will have a class that offers nothing to a group, and loses a lot of its solo potential. In otherwords, another Midcaster in mothballs.
-riv
If I've overstated the Enchanter class, I apologise, I've usually only been on the recieveing end that the dealing end of that particulat hibby. When making these comparrisons I was trying to do so without including RAs of such utility as MoC and BAoD etc, because they throw such imballance into the equation its almost impossible to rationalise an outcome. I didn't even include the Underhill in my overview of the fight either, of which the BD has no way of controlling- if he takes his attention away from the Enchanter for a split second he will end up dead.
I would say though, that and Enchanter isn't really a solo class? Correct me if i'm wrong, I've had more experience playing Mids and Albs than Hibs. It would be more common to see an Enchanter running as part of a group, i think, since they have a lot to offer with their PBAoE, their Speed, their Debuffs, and their Stun and to a lesser extent their nukes (which would often be baseline, so not that potent unless debuffed for), and their pet is not to be underestimated either with its ranged damage and interrupt potential, and of course they have the option to bring BAoD to the group.
I've not run into many solo Enchanters (to be honest I've not run into many solo players of any class), and the stark reality of the RvR situation at the moment is that most Bonedaners have to solo since they being almost nothing to a standard group. As someone said already in this thread, most players who play a Bonedancer would love to see changes made to the class that tone down our solo ability and rank up our groupability, but at the moment thats really not going to happen, no matter what we say to Mythic via the TLs.
If a class is going to be forced to solo, it needs to be equipped to solo, which the Bonedancer is, to an extent. Groups like the one shown in this video are effective, but are still extremly weak against CC. There's no Det with a group of Casters, no group purge, no BAoD, and no pet resists (and thus no healer pets.. which addmittedly isn't such a kick in the nuts with a few healers). They can 'wtfpwn' you, indeed they can, but they can get ripped to pieces too. People who scream 'nerf' after watching one video and perhaps a few encounters need to get some perspective and experience of the class in my humble opinion.
In the grande scheme of things you cannot define a class by a 3 second lifetap insta. The greater part of a Bonedancer's self-utility lies in his pets (which can be mezzed with great ease), so one insta-mez, or bolt range mez and the Bonedancer loses half his interrupt potential, a portion of his damage dealing potential, and a lot of his survivability; what remains in this situation is a cloth wearing Caster (who will have burned purge) who has a 3s Lifetap with a Body Debuff, and a massively unspecced baseline nuke.
The 3s Lifetap does NOT return enough HP to the Caster to keep him alive vs most melee damage (I don't mean a Fire Wizzy tapping you with his stick) against cloth armour, and certainly not against spec nukes.
Just to illustrate a point about the effects CC can have on a Bonedancer; I was running in Emain last night in a normal group. I suppose I was filling a spot that would usually be filled by a Savage.
We ran into a group of Albs not far from MTK, so it was a nice 8v8 scrap. Trying to fulfill my roll as interrupter, once I'd assessed the situation, I sent my Commander [who takes the healers with him, doh!] to interrupt an Alb caster (i'm not sure exactly what kind he was, but he heas an AoE root). The fight continued with me trying to keep Casters interrupted. The Caster that my Commander was hitting (for like no damage i might add), QC-AoE Rooted, so stuck my pets to the spot. The fight was over pretty soon after, as we polished off the remaining tanks, quickly rebuffed and headed towards the mile gate.
Ofc I then found myself unaffected by Skald speed, nor could I use MCL, getting the 'You are still in combat' message. Irritatingly I hadn't noticed my commander and healers were still rooted to the spot, and thus considered in combat. I had to wait the duration of the full root (with combat rate mana regen, and unable to mcl) to get them back, not having the power to summon and buff three more pets. Luck would have it they were back by the time we were zerged by 2fg Albs
Thats the kind of thing i meant when I said that the pets were a great strength and an extraordinary weakness.
I guess what all this gumf is trying to say, is that a Bonedancer can be a great soloer, can be useful in a group, but like most classes has its achillies heel. Take away from it, and you will have a class that offers nothing to a group, and loses a lot of its solo potential. In otherwords, another Midcaster in mothballs.
-riv
Bonehead
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U have written something wrong over and over again, and i feel its time to correct you. The LT is on 4 sec timer, not 3. Same goes for the body debuff.rivan said:
And i don't know how u play your BD. I've dueled every fighter class (melee) in our realm, and won over all of them except savages, without my pets. I would probebly loose vs infils without pet, cos of their debuffs. Maybe it's cos of my high RR and RAs, maybe not. My point is, my LT keep me alive, not my pets. They are just a boost.
And one more thing ...
You should never interupt CASTERS with your pets. Every caster have some sort of CC. Well.. maybe not Crowd controll, but target controll!rivan said:
. One QC root/mess, and your pet is no longer in use. You interupt casters with your LT or Debuff. Keep your pets on supportclasses like Clerics and Druids etc...
swords
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Bonehead said:
The idea was to remove a few of the commanders as fast as possible to free up our support.
as it stands you have an insane amount of interupt ability.
Im not sure what to say about the ''laughing irl'' comment, if you dont try something you'll never know.
Either way be glad you met a FG of Albs tbh
rivan
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the timer isn't really the issue is it?, but duely noted
i've duelled, and i depend a great deal on my healer pets. i cannot get enough returns from my lifetap to keep myself alive, so i'll assume the large realm rank difference is why you can and i can't. its not going to be down to pressing the button better, is it?
out of interest, what realm abilities did you go for? i've tried to go for damage inc ones, MoM, WP, AugAcuIII etc.
with regards to the fight, we'd decided that because we didn't have a pac healer, several of us should run interrupt. it was either join in on a target already under control at the expense of ignoring a caster, or go for that nasty mage who was nuking our aug/mend. besides, if he's ccing my pets, he's not ccing anyone more vital to the group (which wasn't a fotm group, or anywhere close to it), including me, and he's out of a QC for a bit. it was a situational descision, and the right one at the time we whiped the floor with them
i'll see if my opinions have changed when i'm rr 10
i've duelled, and i depend a great deal on my healer pets. i cannot get enough returns from my lifetap to keep myself alive, so i'll assume the large realm rank difference is why you can and i can't. its not going to be down to pressing the button better, is it?
out of interest, what realm abilities did you go for? i've tried to go for damage inc ones, MoM, WP, AugAcuIII etc.
with regards to the fight, we'd decided that because we didn't have a pac healer, several of us should run interrupt. it was either join in on a target already under control at the expense of ignoring a caster, or go for that nasty mage who was nuking our aug/mend. besides, if he's ccing my pets, he's not ccing anyone more vital to the group (which wasn't a fotm group, or anywhere close to it), including me, and he's out of a QC for a bit. it was a situational descision, and the right one at the time
we whiped the floor with them i'll see if my opinions have changed when i'm rr 10
Spamb0t
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Hulbur said:
lolz? never heard any whine over BDs before? haaha ;DD
its about as much whine about BDs as savages ;O
the only reason theres not that much bd whines on EXCAL forum is because theres been close to ZERO active BDs playing.. thats not the case on pryd however.. where amg used to be camped by 3+ bd's 24/7 killing like everything ;D~~
Bonehead
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I'm a glad person! xDswords said:The idea was to remove a few of the commanders as fast as possible to free up our support.
as it stands you have an insane amount of interupt ability.
Im not sure what to say about the ''laughing irl'' comment, if you dont try something you'll never know.
Either way be glad you met a FG of Albs tbh
Tareregion
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Fluid said:
very enjoyable movie, definitely shows the potential of such a group
Do agree though that if ur group gets mezzed ur in for a tough ride, as are all caster groups i guess.
Bonehead
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Intro: Megadeth - Onethingmond said:
First and second fight: Titan AE - Splashdown, Karma Slave
Third fight: Marily Manson - Rock is dead
Last fight: Pet shop boys - Go West
Ending: Deftones - My own Summer
ps: omg ... ~6.400 views on this post!
