Auction: Full Skill Respec Stone

[old.Ragnorak]

Dissapointed

Sorry Tzee,
I had the most respect for you,
but this act of yours makes you out to be a hypocrite and I like u no more.

You pride yourself on your raids being no preclaim, and all loot being distributed fairly.

You getting 1 stone for organising was not part of the raid rules. If you wanted to keep a stone you should have announced it at the start.

Yes I agree you did a lot of work, and tbh I would have no problem with this had u announced this before the raid, but keeping a stone for yourself like this after the raid is dubious, hypocritical and a clear double standard.

What should be done with left over stones? The same thing that was done on the raid organised by Janious.

After the raid the spare stones were distributed by /random lotto amonst those who hadn't joined a cg for any other lotto yet. It was fair and it worked.

Sure you spent time organising the raid etc. but everyone put in work into the raid and deserve a fair chance at the stone.

You yourself would not attend raids that are preclaimed, yet you are happy to change the rules after the fact?

As for saying "if u don't like the rules u can make your own raid" thats just spin on the bullshit. Nowhere before the raid did you say ANYTHING about keeping a stone for yourself. I'm sure many people may not have participated had you said this. So its not about not liking the rules, its about you taking unfair advantage of your position as a raid leader after the fact, and if you have any integrity you will call off this sham and distribute the loot fairly.

To which SEVERAL good suggestions have been posted, namely.

1) lotto the stones amongst people in the next dragon raid.

2) let people post if they have a gimped spec with screen shots and most gimped person gets the stone.

3) Auction the stone but for RDRF

but I guess none of these allow you personal gain does it?


Stick to your own declarations Tzee, or you have no honor.


edit - i'd love to know what happend to the other 3 stones. For all we know you have kept them for yourself or given them to your friends. Until those other 3 stones are accounted for it seems more like you have kept 4 stones for yourself not 1.

this is a sad day that I thought I'd never see,
i've lost my faith in Tzee

 

[Alkoran]

Edit -- Deleted -- Ragnorak's post is better.

 

[censi]

well fuck that if theres 4 of them knocking around you can give one to me!

 

[Novamir]

ragnorok: why would you deny him some personal gain ?

 

[old.Ragnorak]

because

Nova - because...

1) the raid was specifically announced as NO PRECLAIM.

2) He himself made a rule saying that its bad to sell stones and that people would be banned from his raids if they sell them, yet he PURPOSEFULLY places a loophole in that rule, and then breaks his own rule before it even comes into effect?

I mean if its OKAY to sell stones, then there should be no rule against it.

If its NOT okay to sell stones, then there should be a rule against it.

Tzee HIMSELF declared quite emphatically how much he is against it. Yet he uses this whole 25th of May loophole bullshit to get around his own self declared rule?

Maybe I should rephrase myself....

I have no problem with Tzee getting personal gain. I have no problem with him getting personal gain from a raid he organised for his personal gain...

what i do have a problem with is the hypocritical way in which he has acted here in order to achive his personal gain,
where firstly, he keeps the item from the raid he declared to be no preclaim. and secondly breaks his own rule about not selling stones before the rule even comes into effect so to speak.

I mean if he thinks its so wrong to sell stones and is making a rule against it why is he selling it? How the hell can he expect or demand of people to follow such a rule that he blatently disregards for his personal gain?

Practise what you preach, by Mahatma Gandhi comes to mind IMO.

 

[wid_caedes]

Some valid points Rag, but still think he deserves it. Perhaps he did screw up a bit, and perhaps he did go against his own rules, but is it really that big of a deal? He said himself that he's going to use it for SCing (which imo is a gain to the realm as well), and I sure think that he will also.

I'm not saying your points are faulty Rag, and as I said I do agree with them, but not enough to actually deny him some personal gain, and even less to start disliking the lad :-/
After all, if we want fairness the rest of us hibbies have some pretty deep cash stacks to give to Saad for all he's put down to Hibernia.

Just let this one slip mates, it's obviously not going to happen again seeing how you flamed him for it. Not a big deal imo.

Cheers

 

[old.Cher]

Rag u seem to be talking too much sense in this thead..... as someone looking in from prydwen, i think its out of order, i have no bias towards anyone in this thread, but i think it really is pathetic to sell a respec stone after clearly stating he's against it.

its like a vegetarian owning a slaughter house

 

[Hestetun]

one rule do the things u accpect others to do, if u sell the stone dont denie the others to do it either.

 

[old.Ragnorak]

"Some valid points Rag, but still think he deserves it. Perhaps he did screw up a bit, and perhaps he did go against his own rules, but is it really that big of a deal? He said himself that he's going to use it for SCing (which imo is a gain to the realm as well), and I sure think that he will also.

I'm not saying your points are faulty Rag, and as I said I do agree with them, but not enough to actually deny him some personal gain, and even less to start disliking the lad :-/
After all, if we want fairness the rest of us hibbies have some pretty deep cash stacks to give to Saad for all he's put down to Hibernia.

Just let this one slip mates, it's obviously not going to happen again seeing how you flamed him for it. Not a big deal imo.
"

deserve it? well had he said he was going to keep the stone before the raid, I would have been the FIRST to defend him from any whines. I think he would deserve a stone,
but not by deciveing people and saying its all fair, and not by breaking his own rules
and certialny not by breaking his own so called principles.

And where does it end? So is it okay if all raid leaders do this from now on? Annoucne no pre-claim b4 raid then keep stones afterwards? Either its okay or its not when it comes to this kind of thing.... I still feel sorry for the many many players who have gimped their charecters and gone on every single raid but still no stone because of bad luck on /random... yet he has a stone, didn't win by lotto, on a non-preclaim raid, that is being sold to highest bidder for most profit?

As for this doing stuff for the realm, thats complete BS, there are LOTS of ppl who have done LOTS for the realm, this shouldn't make them above the rules that apply to us all, and most certainly not above the rules that they wish to apply to us

i honestly found this a hard pill to swallow that saadyst could do something like this... always thought him to be a man of principle,
but its a commodity in short supply these days I guess.

 

[Xray]

Well i think this is clearly a case of the:

Magic 49 Rule

I still dont understand it. I think it also goes by the name of Catch 22. Maybe i'm wrong.

But i must say that as far as left over stones are concerned, I had always assumed (like many other people) that they would be lotto'ed along with all the other loot.

I don't think any of us can deny the fact that Saad, or even anyone else that organises Raids on the scale that he does, actually deserves a stone or two or something for their time and effort. I know that personally i could never organise a Raid. But that's not the point.

These Free For All Raids have certain rules and if the Raid Leader can't stick to his own rules, then what's the point in making them in the first place.

 

[deygos]

OBJECTION YOUR HONOR!





....OVERRULED

 

[inuyasha]

Re: Dissapointed

Originally posted by old.Ragnorak
2) let people post if they have a gimped spec with screen shots and most gimped person gets the stone.

edit - i'd love to know what happend to the other 3 stones. For all we know you have kept them for yourself or given them to your friends. Until those other 3 stones are accounted for it seems more like you have kept 4 stones for yourself not 1.

Read what you said, and watch for a post named: gimp idol mkay?
This IS what hes using the leftover stones for afaik.

And as for this one, let it go or whine so more. I dont say he earned it more then others or anything, but it dont rightfully belong to anyone at all, so what are you whining about? He didnt cheat ANYONE, no one would give a jackshit if it was preclaim or not, case everyone was in a group, and every group got 2 stones.

He have already clearly stated that:
FROM NOW ON people who sell lottoed drops might or will be banned from raids.
This stone was from before this rule.
It was no lotto among this stone what so ever, so it do not come under the jurisdiction of "lottoed drop"

He have not broken his own rule, he have not stolen the stone from anyone (no one had any claim of it), and hes sharing ALL other stones that is spare of hes own free will through the gimp idol competition afaik.

So, if you loose your respec to tzees endless hours of planning, organizing and taking/defending from shit like this, case of this one stone, id say you waste your time.

 

[old.Tzeentch]

I'll skip the attacks on my character for now.

Ok, lot to cover here, excuse me if i miss anything.

You may not sell loot you win by lottoing - if you find that you don't actually need an item you've won, return it to the raid leader. If you opt to sell it you will be banned from future raids.

Ok, there is always loot left over, meaning as the raid leader, I have it on my character.

I've heard many ideas on what to do with it, salvage for the rdrf, auction for the rdrf, lotto amongst the raiders of the day, lotto for the next raiders and so on and so forth.

Every single option presented to me, I didn't like the idea of.

Salvaging items that although they aren't uber, could be used perfectly for low level people, as opposed to auctioning/salvaging for about 800g or so for the RDRF <talking about the items here, not the stones>.

Auctioning stones for the RDRF, meaning we're now limiting stones to the richest of the rich, or the people with friends with the cash.

Lotto-ing amongst the raiders of the day - right... spend another few hours lotto-ing amongst 100+ people ?

Lotto or put it in for the groups for the next raid - why? Everyone got the stones promised to them, why should I put more stones to a particular raid based on the work of the previous raiders?

So, I set about 'holding' the stones/loot at the end of raids - I even asked here for ideas on what do with them.

The one result from that is - the Gimp Idol thread.

As for public accounting of the stones <everyone wants names, for what reason, I do not know, I sincerely hope the people will not be harassed or such in any form>:

Skill stone : Temperance
Skill stone : Danya
Skill stone : Kama
Skill stone : Gimp Idol

RA stone : Tdaer
RA stone : Dark Order
RA stone : Dark Order

I'd like for anyone to point out the 'personal gain' in giving out these stones to these people.


I'm assuming you would be happier for me to just hold on to the stones and not give them out at all? Since that IS the fairest thing you know.. at least the stones are getting out to people who need them.

Seems a fine compromise by my, by attending the raid and accepting I will hold ALL the loot, and have the final word on any lotto discrepancies, you also put your faith in me to be fair and honest, and I have been, I seriously don't see it the way you guys are.

The thing about the announcing an auction and putting the rules up was not planned the way it came out to you, the rules were in their entirety taken from The Last Watch, and I agreed with them totally, the auction was happening regardless, MANY people knew that I had the stones, indeed the Gimp Idol and the 'what shall i do with the stones' thread should really have made that clear, so saying that you weren't aware I find hard to believe.

I pride my raids on being, fast, efficient, fair, the final word being me, as I strongly believe I am a fair guy, and I'm sick to death of hearing of lotto abuses.

FYI: I have been making more rules after each raid, the first was incredibly lax, the second had a few more rules in, the third some more, and the next, the 4th, will have a lot more, I never had a plan on what to do with the stones, and again, I never hid or concealed that I had them, or what I did with them, this is why they never went to any lotto after the raids, because in all the raids I did so far, I _never_ made it you could only lotto for one item (as stupid as that may sound).

I'm not naive, I'm fully aware putting stones into a FFA lotto amongst 150+ people will result in entire guilds pitching in, you want to be the one to explain why it is fair that the most powerful/populous guild has a larger chance of getting the stones?

It already happens now with select items, the abuse of common decency for these stones would be tenfold.

The rules were not changed at all, I have not gone back on my word - there IS no pre-claim (if anything, at the most its a post-claim), and everyone will STILL receive the stones they were promised.

 

[old.Cher]

Originally posted by old.Tzeentch

Auctioning stones for the RDRF, meaning we're now limiting stones to the richest of the rich, or the people with friends with the cash.

hmmm so whats the difference mate? u are auctioning it to the richest, but thats okay because its for personal gain and not RDRF?

 

[inuyasha]

Its ok case its 1 and not a system.

 

[-Dreama-]

I of ALL people understand how it is to do multiple raids and develope the rules along the way. You can never start out on the 1st raid with the perfect set of rules, and there will ALWAYS be someone who is not happy. I think Saady is doing a bang up job on these hunts, no one was 'cheated' out of a drop per say because all grps got 2 stones.
In a technical way, these were left overs in Saady's deffinition. Some of us would ahve done it differently, but some of us didn't spend fking hell of a lot of time/energy doing a DR.

 

[Xray]

Originally posted by old.Tzeentch
As for public accounting of the stones <everyone wants names, for what reason, I do not know, I sincerely hope the people will not be harassed or such in any form>:

The reason why, is everyone assumed that left over loot/stones would be lotto'ed. And if not, then most guessed that you'd probably just give to your friends or guild m8s.

But who gives a fuck anyway. As many people have said already u deserve the stones yourself.

Just put it in your rules that you reserve the right to do whatever you want with any drops

And stop being such a hypocrite about selling lotto'ed loot.

 

[old.Tzeentch]

Stop being so bitter Xray, not good for you.
Might also want to edit the part about 'lotto'ed loot', to just 'loot', cant have you looking a schmuck, can we?


Cher, because the RDRF runs every month, and gets quite a few plat every month.. and we've only been attacked once or so for the previous months, dont think it's in any dire need of funds, it's just a huge bank.

 

[Xray]

Originally posted by old.Tzeentch
Stop being so bitter Xray, not good for you.
Might also want to edit the part about 'lotto'ed loot', to just 'loot', cant have you looking a schmuck, can we?

Not much point in doing that, since i can't edit your quote. And that could leave you looking like a schmuck. I hope you get my point tho.

Not allowing people to sell loot that they lotto'ed for, when you yourself are selling loot that should have been lotto'ed is bullshit.

And just to let you know i'm not bitter, if i ever get around to making an MP RF vest i'll give it to you. You deserve it m8.

 

[old.Tzeentch]

I'm not naive, I'm fully aware putting stones into a FFA lotto amongst 150+ people will result in entire guilds pitching in, you want to be the one to explain why it is fair that the most powerful/populous guild has a larger chance of getting the stones?

It already happens now with select items, the abuse of common decency for these stones would be tenfold.

Its all nice to think we live in a fairytale realm where everyone is decent, however I'm sorry to disappoint you, the processes people are suggesting, that sure enough sound ideal, would be abused heavily.

You're very wrong to believe that it would be otherwise, and I'm not even gonna do it that way, I care how the lotto's are done, it's a part of the raid overall that reflects on me as a raid leader, and I'm not gonna humour some childish fantasy that it would have been better to leave it to the 'good, kind, loving people of hibernia' to decide amongst themselves. Sorry to say that someone needs to just get things done, and I've given so far quite a few people fun with their classes again, directly and indirectly, I've taken the last few stones and I'm giving them all out bar one, which I am auctioning, this, in my opinion, is the best option, EVERY stone which comes in my possession goes to someone that needs it, bar ONE, which is this one, and I take it for myself.

Your point?

 

[fade-]

Originally posted by old.Tzeentch
all the rules are visible to everyone, there is no 'pre-claim', i dont decide how many people show up, i dont decide that one day i will keep such and such item.

isn't that 2 stones u've used for ur self now?

I have no problem with it, u put in a lot of hard work and deserve something just looks like saying 1 thing and doing another...

 

[old.Tzeentch]

one stone, auction.

all other stones - other people that needed them

but like i said - i didnt make the rules right from the start, they've been made after each raid, and coming across the ones in place now, they seem fine.

 

[Ravenbourne]

Originally posted by Kobold
to those who flame Tzee:

fyi. don't you think he deserves that for arranging several dragon raid? It's require lots of a person to do that. And if he said that he would take one of eatch of the 25 stones himself and lottoed out the rest, that would be fair imo. I mean he could just go farm cash in the time instead and gain the money, but then would be no dragon raid for us. I think you should thank him instead of flame him.

WTG Tzee ...and to you flamers stfu n00bs



this is imo..

agreed

All this fuss for 1 respec stone. Tzee deserves something from the raids ffs, i doubt we would of taken the dragon down as many times as we have if it wasnt for him. Who else would put up with people not listening or following simple instructions.

 

[finbahr]

Originally posted by Amadon
pffffffffft

wtf's the problem with tzee selling a stone?

i mean he had 4 skill respec stones left over, so that means he at least gave away 3 of them, and possibly he's selling a stone he won through a lotto, which many many people have already done

in addition, he's selling a stone from a previous dragon raid done before he posted his rules, and he made this thread before posting his rules too, so htf can you hold him to a set of rules posted at a later time?

and considering how much money he's spent for the realm (like on wood for repairing doors of keeps that weren't claimed by his guild, or siege weapons - which are cheap admittedly, but it adds up), I don't see why he can't sell a stone

he made the rules he should live by them so he done shit load for the realm so have others but would they be banned from future raids.

the rules were set out before the dragon raids started .


not saying he is doing wrong just can't stop anyone else doing the same thing

 

[Ziva]

Changing the rules for loot of leftover loot (what we talking about here) in the middle or after any raid is not done imho and it will usually only piss people off.

The way i see it is this, when i join a raid i check rules for lotto before joining (it's like an agreement before accepting). For me it's very important things are fair and everyone gets an equal chance cause nothing can piss me off more then a nice and fun raid and whole bunch of whining and moaning on a lotto after. Things like that can bascially ruin my entire evening so to prevent myself from getting pissed off i hardly join raids with lottorules that can result in these events.

I don't think the issue here is "Does Tzee deserve a respec stone or not" cause most people (like me) think he really deserves one or two or a drop for himself for all the work he puts into making a dragon raid. I think the issue here is "changing the rules middle/after a raid". I personally thought all leftover stones were lottoed like any other loot after the raid meaning people could lotto for a drop or for a stone. But maybe i misread or misunderstood the lottorules so then it's my fault basically.

I hope the rules will be clear for everyone in future raids cause that will benefit both raidleader and the people joining.

 

[Sol-]

stop flaming elf man tzee11!! he deserves a break after organising all of the raids and stuff.

 

[old.Tzeentch]

Thing is Ziva, I never thought I would have stones left over, only after when I realised I would start having quite a bit after the raid left, did I start to think of what to do.

 

[old.Niljindil]

FAO: Anyone that cant read(which seems to be most people in this thread flaming tzee).

Q:In the rules, it said that all loot should be handed over to tzee, right?

A: Yes it did, and joining the raid you agreed with it.

Q: In the rules, it said that each group would get 2 stones(one RA and one skill) and the "drops" would be lottoed for people interested in the drops, right?

A: Yes it did, and by joining the raid you agreed to that.

Conclusion: You agreed(although indirectly) that tzee could keep anything not included in those rules for himself. If you dont agree with that, you should not, and i repeat, SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE ON THE FUCKING RAID IN THE FIRST PLACE YOU ANALPHABETIC MORONS!

Sorry for the use of bad language and caps, i just had to let that come out....

Edit: If you still feel like saying "this is wrong" then please say it so that i can flame you a second time.

Edit2: Oh and FYI, the "new rules" he posted is just that, NEW, for FUTURE raids, check what the word means and then try and come back saying he is breaking against his own rules.

 

[old.Laryssa]

can't we just all be friends ?

/grouphug

 

[old.Niljindil]

Originally posted by old.Laryssa
can't we just all be friends ?

/grouphug

Would love to, but i just cant stand when people pick on my friends even tho they are wrong or have crappy reasons