Are Friar unbalanced? (Little whine :)

[Frair]

After talk with my friend who plays friar and looking what they can do, i'm starting to thing that friars are maybe little unbalanced.

Let's looks what they can do:

They can spec in Rejuv, Enhance, Staff, Parry.

They can wear leather
They gets Evade 5 at lvl 33.

Now the whine

By using staff i was told they can do 200-300 dmg quite fast. And they are healers..

They can wear lether and gets evade 5 - this is ok, since they use leather they need some more defence, though lvl 5 evade is maybe little much.

Absorb buffs + 5, 10 or 15% buffs - isn't that little much? They have leather - 10%, +15% from buff = 25%! Hmm, let's see, scale/chain have 27% absorb - isn't something wrong here? And they have evade 5 - I would like to have evade 5 too while wearing scale.

Parry - Ok, so they have evade 5, 25% absorb and parry? Hmm, arent' they little too much defensive? But ok, if they are defensive chars, how can they do such dmg with theirs staff?

Enhance line of spell:
Another AF buff - Heh.. I don't know if it stacks with baseline AF, but if so, they have defence now anyone can only dream about with high dmg output.

End regen and end style cost reduction buff - well those spells are nice generaly, but while Friar are so defensive and offensive at same time, this gives them even more offensive power.

Self attack speed buff - well, it's usefull but since it is 30sec every 3 minutes, i think this is well designed spell for Friars.. maybe only one well designed.

resistance buffs - since they have allready good chance against melee classes, why they got chance against many casters as well? Heat and Cold and Matter - since most Friars are going for high enhance, they usualy have 24% buff, making themself hard targets for casters.

dex/qui self buff - they are using staffs, that are dex based so yes, additional dex buff is still ok. But why quick as well? This only helps them evade more and swing faster - it's hard to kill them in melee in first place.

Overall - often Friars are going high weapon and enhancement, something in parry and rejuv. This makes them 2handed fighters in chain with evade 5 and parry - high dmg, very high defence that can heal poison/disease as well as himself after fight. I can't help myself but think that someone wasn't thinking while designed this class.

From my point of view, it's not neccessary to nerft them too bad. But putting one or two spells from enhance to rejuv (end reduction buff, absorb?) as well as taking away parry (only healer that have parry and high evade, hell, even hunter/ranger/NS/INF/SB doesn't have parry (ok, they have range or stealth) will maybe makes them fighting healer, not tank killer.

But maybe i'm wrong and it's not so bad, this is only impression i got from reading class description. Would like to discuss it here.

 

[klavrynd]

maybe they are overpowered, but then again you don't see too many of em on the battlefields (at least not on pryd), or maybe they're balance and the other classes aren't...

 

[Frair]

I think only reason why not many friars are at battlefield is that it is probably harder to lvl if you are tank in leather armor with bad healing

 

[matax]

Originally posted by Frair
I think only reason why not many friars are at battlefield is that it is probably harder to lvl if you are tank in leather armor with bad healing

But isn't that better than tank with average armour with no healing ?

 

[whirling1]

i had to laugh at this post.

Ive had 2 friars now..and would not consider myself over-powered.

Healing for a friar is at best equal to a cleric half youre level (thats if you spec rejuv) at worst its a joke..and totally unpredictable.

Dex buffs ,well we really need those as our weapon is 100% dex based and dex is NOT one of our prime attributes..i.e it doesnt get higher as we level.

Damage well I'm lvl25 at the mo specced 22 in staff and using a staff that adds 3 to this skill , and cons yellow to me with a dps of 9 and spd of 2.8....The best I have ever hit for using my best style against a yellow mob is 90-100...sometimes youre lucky and get critical .

Armour well you don't get the absorb buffs unless you spec in enhance...and if you specc heavy in enhance then you loose out in staff ( which means most friars don't get the highest absorb buff till late on in levels..and we are described as a mini tank I think we kinda need the buff).........as for parry well an average friar will probably get that to 18 maybe 20 spec at lvl 50 ..which gives a 15% chance of parrying I think..

Evade well unless I'm wrong (and I could be) we get lvl 4 not 5

I am in no way saying friars are under-powered but don't start shouting HE's UBER GIMP HIM....before youve tried the character yourself . imho friars , with the onset of patch 1.52 will be nicely balanced and GOA should go balance other classes and leave us alone.....

 

[old.Bubble]

hehe at lvl 25 sorry but you aren't a RvR friar yet

at lvl 50 a friar is like a armsman with a 2.5 sec attack speed polearm

they have a 9 sec stun chain(if they choose to use that chain) and alot of use antime styles
with a cleric quick/dex buff they are insane

sorry i've seen them in action beat up a lvl 50 skald with no real effort (i believe the 4 shouts did all the damage)

 

[old.chesnor]

Reading Frairs post its easy to think Friars may be overpowered as a healing class. But when you look at the utility a friar brings to a group against every other healer class in the game, I don;t think they are overpowered.

Bottom line is a Friar who specs staff/enhance/parry (as rejuv is undoubtedly terrible) will be a great soloer (especially after the taunt pull spell comes in patch 1.53?), but brings very little to any group in PvE or RvR. After the smite nerf, most clerics will spec rejuv and or enhance. Cleric buffs are much better than friars (most good friar buffs are self only) and clerics heal far better than friars. Friars have good dmg output, but no protect/guard and no shield. Middy healers and hib bards get CC, druids get great buffs and great healing, wardens get bubble, shaman get great buffs, friggs, good ranged dmg, some CC. Friars get a big stick, and thats it.

 

[liste]

Friars are cool. they look cool, they can do cool stuff, and when they fight, they look cool.

But they are not over powered, no. when they get the range pull, i'd go as far as call it a finnished class. well ballanced.

 

[Blood]

friars would be overpowered if they had 2.5x spec points, but at 1.5x friars have to make tough choices.. they cant spec all those nice things at once

 

[robillard]

it would be nice to see a few more friars out there, all the ones I know seem to do pretty well in RvR

 

[Ottar]

> but at 1.5x friars have to make tough choices..

Not really. Well.. they get the same number of specpoints as skalds do and 1.5x more than shamen. If one does not spec in rejuv, then..

Playing around with char builder:

45 enchance
7 rejuv
44 staves
18 parry

The heals would be only be useful out of battle of course but such a friar would have the stun chain, all top buffs except resists and the last of melee speed. Fighting friars are known to be on par with berzerkers in melee.

Dunno how thy fare against assassin classes but I definitely wouldn’t want to mistake one for a caster with my skald in solo.

Ottar

 

[kr0n]

Actually Friar can wear shields... but not spec in it.

 

[Solid]

Ottar that spec you mentioned is my PvP Friar spec, 100% decided ages ago that me and a few other larger than life Prydwen chars gonan go this root Will be so much fun

 

[Garnet]

My friar only hits for 150 Is she gimped?

 

[GReaper]

Overpowered - never! Balanced, probably.

It is one of the most fun melee classes I've had the chance to play. Not running out of end during any long fight is great.

Some negative points:

Low hitpoints: Against a pure tank, you're at a disadvantage here. They're going to survive more of a beating than you.

Crush only: While this used to be great, there were no penalties on anything. Next patch, scale will resist it, while reinforced and hib leather are vulnerable. This means we get bonuses on 2 hib classes, and a penalty on any hib with the highest armour.

Our armour vulnerability: Currently we are vulnerable to slash, however next patch it changes so that slash is neutral, thrust is resisted while crush is vulnerable.

Oh look, its a caster, WHACK: A robe and a staff can make you a bit of a target to take out first. This can be nice if you can hit them back, but if you've got more than one person hitting you thinking that you give Free Realm points In A Robe, you're going to die anyway.

No range: Absolutely no range to stop any enemy in RvR, all we'll get next patch is a taunt which can knock you out of speed. Don't think about sprinting away though, with end regen and some long wind we can easily get you once you run out of end - and fight you with styles.

Staves are pure dex: But we don't even get dex as a primary, secondary or tertiary stat! Just imagine a caster who never gets intelligence as one of their stats, they'd be losing out on over 40 int. We need to spec into enhancements just to get some dex back.


Friar is quite balanced and fun. They never deal out as much damage as a buffed pure tank, but we are an always fully buffed hybrid - just something which gives us an advantage when it comes to fighting someone unbuffed.

 

[Happlo]

Originally posted by Ottar
> but at 1.5x friars have to make tough choices..

Dunno how thy fare against assassin classes but I definitely wouldn’t want to mistake one for a caster with my skald in solo.

Ottar

To be honest with you i'll go for any yellow con or sometimes orange con classes out there and give it a bash, but when i see that quarter stave i usualy think twice

They wear the same armour as myself but with better absorbsion bonus, get a 25% chance to evade and even with only 10 spec points a 30% chance to parry (yeah, not too good in RvR at the moment but still there ). They hit harder than me and almost as fast.

I dont recon they should be nerfed but I would say i'd put my money on a friar in a 1on1 melee fight against most other classes available.

Not bad for a hybrid healer/melee class

 

[Gabrial]

I had a friar and deleted him. In groups peeps see you as a healer (well, at lower levels anyway). So i created a tank and a cleric instead

I wouldnt say they are overbalanced though.

 

[Piper]

Also to get the good absorb, the attack speed, the endurance-regen etc, they have to stop and re-buff annoyingly regularly. Plus their spec is kind of decided by the fact that most of the original fixes for the class came in the enhancement spec line.

 

[whirling1]

Originally posted by old.Bubble
hehe at lvl 25 sorry but you aren't a RvR friar yet

at lvl 50 a friar is like a armsman with a 2.5 sec attack speed polearm

they have a 9 sec stun chain(if they choose to use that chain) and alot of use antime styles
with a cleric quick/dex buff they are insane

sorry i've seen them in action beat up a lvl 50 skald with no real effort (i believe the 4 shouts did all the damage)

Hmmm i don't belive the original post mentioned RvR just Friars in general...and i did also say this is my second friar

 

[whirling1]

Originally posted by gilthanis


They wear the same armour as myself but with better absorbsion bonus, get a 25% chance to evade and even with only 10 spec points a 30% chance to parry

Dont think 10 spec gives you 30% chance m8..think its more 10%

 

[Ragnarok1978]

Given, my Friar is only lvl 31, but I'll add mine.

I find Friars to be fun, I would not call them overpowered as they won't be able to solo very well and be group friendly at the same time.

Main problem lies in the 1.5 specpoints/lvl, if w had 2/lvl I would go as far as to call us overpowered. You can aim for a high staff and a semi-high rejuv to make a decent backup healer in groups and still pack a punch with your stick, but then you neglect enhancement and without enhancement you will hurt in PvE if you are unable to find a group.

With the added respecs comming at level 20 and 40 + the full respec at 50 does however give Friars an advantage. A very high rejuv makes you a decent healer, not even close to a celric, but still good enough to be a healer part of a group.

Friars are one of the classes that in my book, with the comming changes in 1.52 are as good as done. You have the ability to play either a hardhitting melee'er or a healer, and you can do both pretty well.

 

[-faith-]

Originally posted by Frair

By using staff i was told they can do 200-300 dmg quite fast. And they are healers..

This sort of dmg is only achievable with a slowish staff I'm afraid, like a 4.0,4.5,5.0, on no terms can my 3.0 staff dish out more than 170 dmg, 140 being average. With haste its marginally fast, for 30 secs, thats like 3-4 hits at best. And the disadvantage with haste is that it "changes" your weapon stats, so its like your using a faster weapon which means yes you are hitting faster but you also get a dmg penalty.

They can wear lether and gets evade 5 - this is ok, since they use leather they need some more defence, though lvl 5 evade is maybe little much.

Too high evade compared to who? Well lets take the evade that stealthers get, which is 2 lvls above friars and believe me its noticeable! With a one on one fight I would consider myself lucky to evade once.

Absorb buffs + 5, 10 or 15% buffs - isn't that little much? They have leather - 10%, +15% from buff = 25%! Hmm, let's see, scale/chain have 27% absorb - isn't something wrong here? And they have evade 5 - I would like to have evade 5 too while wearing scale.

Having 15% ab buff does in no way constitute turning our leather into chain/scale. The text below is borrowed from drunken.friar.com but it puts things into perpective nicely.

We have an absorption buff, which increases our armor's absorption. Casting classes have these buffs as well. If the Friar specializes to at least 44 in Enhancement, then he/she will gain 15% absorption in addition to the 10% base absorption of leather armor. This does not give us chain armor. We can have 25% damage absorption, but we still have the penalties of leather armor.

The current AF Cap for Chain Armor is 500 * 1.27, which is 635 AF. On the flipside, since Friars still have the leather armor, regardless of the absorption spells, our AF cap for Leather Armor is 500 * 1.1, which is 550 AF. In other words, absorption is nice, but we still have lower AF and the penalties that come with Leather Armor.

Parry - Ok, so they have evade 5, 25% absorb and parry? Hmm, arent' they little too much defensive? But ok, if they are defensive chars, how can they do such dmg with theirs staff?/B]

Parry is a spec line, most friars ignore/ignored this line as the others deemed more worthy. In 1.53 its worth putting points into but as it stands its broken as it is for all 2 hand weapon users in RvR.

Enhance line of spell:
Another AF buff - Heh.. I don't know if it stacks with baseline AF, but if so, they have defence now anyone can only dream about with high dmg output.

End regen and end style cost reduction buff - well those spells are nice generaly, but while Friar are so defensive and offensive at same time, this gives them even more offensive power.

resistance buffs - since they have allready good chance against melee classes, why they got chance against many casters as well? Heat and Cold and Matter - since most Friars are going for high enhance, they usualy have 24% buff, making themself hard targets for casters.

dex/qui self buff - they are using staffs, that are dex based so yes, additional dex buff is still ok. But why quick as well? This only helps them evade more and swing faster - it's hard to kill them in melee in first place.

All of the above are class fixes and only added on recently. Friars were a gimped class to begin with, I know as I have been playing friars since beta and they have come a long way since. Before these vital class fixes we were nothing more than gimps with sticks. I think friars are one of the most balanced classes there is, we can hold our own but we too have our penalties. We cant for instance choose a weapon dmg like all tanks, and if you look at the dmg tables coming soon crush is at a serious disadvantage, but unlike most weapon specced characters who can and will use respecs, we have no choice. Hold my own againts any hib/mid pure tank ... its a joke and if you actually played this character you would realise that.

What I find unbelievable is that you would call nerfs on a friend. Friars are fine the way they are, just because you dont find friars bitching about how crap they are does not make them invinceable, its just happens we started off crap and we have improved and are grateful for it. For once mythic came through.

If you want to learn more about friars instead of mouthing off about classes you really cant begin to understand as you have no first hand experience relevant to start moaning then visit Drunken Friar and go calling for nerf calls. Be sure to notify a loved one so they can haul out your smoking carcass once they finish ripping you apart

 

[Atomi]

Well I know we are not owerpovered, because I play a friar(sometimes, if I want to die in RvR, or found some PvE event)

The most powerful classes in PvE, the most popular classes: cleric, armsman, paladin, wizard, skald, thane, healer, runemaster, hero, eldritch, enchanter, bard, druid, champion, warden

The most powerful classes in RvR, the classes with most rp's:
stealthers, DW-ers, casters, tanks, everything what can kill quick, or have enough HP/armor to survive long enough and harvest rp's what do thier groupmembers.

Friars on the bottom of both the lists.

As a friar I see, in PvE we not too popular. We not as good tank as an armsman or a paladin, and not as good healer as a cleric. Well we can tank and heal both, but not same time(maybe can, but not easy)

In RvR when only 1 tank hit me, I can win(maybe if he have no buffs, and stun style, and FA, IP...) But most of the times I die by nukes, or stuned then gang banged, and these situations I have just low HP and low AF, and die as quick as a caster Sometimes I feel myself a caster without ranged attack and CC
We are good against lonley, unbuffed, hybrid classes without speed, debuff, instaCC. Plz tell me where can I harvest them

 

[Happlo]

Originally posted by whirling1



Dont think 10 spec gives you 30% chance m8..think its more 10%

Aye, you are right on that one mate. For some reason thought it was a base chance on 25% there.......Doh!!!!

But still, couple that with 25% evade chance and a decent armour self buff, well solo they would be hard to take out

Good fun to play i bet though

 

[whirling1]

Yes they are fun to play..but grouping can be a problem sometimes.....*others who have never been or worked with a friar ..see Res and heal only..so they take you in if they can't find a cleric.....this can lead to some idiots getting anoyed when you dont heal like a cleric.
Other groups see you for what you are a semi-tank semi-healer.....Ive been primary tank in groups, but find even with all our buffs we still loose HP very quickly..and parry and evade don't detract that much from the onslaught of angry mobs, that because of our highish damage output are virtually impossible to pull from us.(that said I love my friar and wouldnt wanna change him...even if i was offered a lvl50 armsman for free)

*BUT---this seems to be improving as more and more players get used to what we can and can't do

 

[old.chesnor]

Re: Re: Are Friar unbalanced? (Little whine

Originally posted by -faith-
What I find unbelievable is that you would call nerfs on a friend. Friars are fine the way they are, just because you dont find friars bitching about how crap they are does not make them invinceable, its just happens we started off crap and we have improved and are grateful for it. For once mythic came through.

If you want to learn more about friars instead of mouthing off about classes you really cant begin to understand as you have no first hand experience relevant to start moaning then visit Drunken Friar and go calling for nerf calls. Be sure to notify a loved one so they can haul out your smoking carcass once they finish ripping you apart

Sigh.

Why do you have a go at Frair for posting this, like its some personal attack on you. This thread was a half decent discussion on friars, please don't turn it into a flamefest.

You have detailed why Friars are not overpowered in your opinion, leave it at that. I for one know people who happen to think they are overpowered, and others (like me) who think they are one of daocs better balanced classes. Don't rally against those who call for nerfs, educate them

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by Ragnarok1978
With the added respecs comming at level 20 and 40 + the full respec at 50 does however give Friars an advantage. A very high rejuv makes you a decent healer, not even close to a celric, but still good enough to be a healer part of a group.

There is no level 50 full respec.
The full respec is a 1.52 patch bonus, not a level 50 one.

 

[SFXman]

By using staff i was told they can do 200-300 dmg quite fast. And they are healers..

No they are not healers
Heals are pretty much useless except for yourself.

One thing before you judge... SURE they are good at soloing mobs, I'll give you that but look at the RP tables? How many friars do see in the top... none? Really now...
Apparently friars aren't too good in RvR but I am not 100% sure on that since everyone insists you level before you go RvR
I am only L43 so don't RvR.

Getting groups isn't even close to as easy as it is for minstrels, clerics, pure tanks, theugists, wizards.... sigh.
I spent a load of time soloing until I hit tangs which is just about the only place where my heals are sufficient.

Since the main point of the game is RvR, game mechanics and history (as in the past we have experienced ) wise, friars are not overpowered. Period.

So what if we can solo our earlier levels fast... soloing at 40+ is pretty damn slow so it really doesn't help much.

 

[Sharma]

WE ARE NOT OVERPOWERED

i have experiance against other classes in RvR, we dont stand a chance against a warrior, i swear.

we are not the best of healers, sure we can heal, not very well though.

or buffs arent marvelous, the effects they have are minimal.

sure we can to 200-300 damage in a short time, its called a short attack speed buff which only last about 30secs.

we cannot tank very weel, we have only leather, BUT we make up for this by evade. we will never be as good as an infil or scout for evading. we dont evade a terrible amount.

we can solo, but our downtime is large, we need to get health,mana AND endurance. tanks only need health and endurance, casters only need mana and health, whereas we need all three.

we do not get crush style, we can only have style in staff.
tanks get much more styles than us, thus having more variety.

we our dex/qui buff is ONLY self and last about 10 mins, its not conc based. our endurance regen suck our mana, the endurance redusce thing doesnt have a massive effect, and out shield buff sucks, max you get is 57AF. wizzie get a AF buff of something like 100 or more.

we are a mix, we do not excel in melee or healing, our heals drain power like nobodys biz, i can only heal a short time before i run outta mana.

i hope ive made my point. we are not overpowered.

PERIOD

 

[SFXman]

Originally posted by whirling1 i had to laugh at this post.

Ive had 2 friars now..and would not consider myself over-powered.

Healing for a friar is at best equal to a cleric half youre level (thats if you spec rejuv) at worst its a joke..and totally unpredictable.

On the heals I agree with you, especially since barely any friars spec high in rejuv.

Damage well I'm lvl25 at the mo specced 22 in staff and using a staff that adds 3 to this skill , and cons yellow to me with a dps of 9 and spd of 2.8....The best I have ever hit for using my best style against a yellow mob is 90-100...sometimes youre lucky and get critical .

Mm, not that bad for a L25 is it now or for a 2.8 spd staff... the higher the speed the larger the damage..
Here are some examples of my fights:
First here is an exceptional hit on a blue con deamhaness, not tha common (staff is 3.0 spd L40 epic one, dps 14.1):

Here is a way rarer nice hit on a yellow con rocot, I linked it because the picture is so large res:

http://sivut.koti.soon.fi/lecklin/lowrocot.jpg

Finally here is a fairly good fight summary, yellow con rocot again:

Anyway, those were times when I had good luck, usually my HP's on a yellow rocot get to around half maybe...

Armour well you don't get the absorb buffs unless you spec in enhance...and if you specc heavy in enhance then you loose out in staff ( which means most friars don't get the highest absorb buff till late on in levels..and we are described as a mini tank I think we kinda need the buff).........as for parry well an average friar will probably get that to 18 maybe 20 spec at lvl 50 ..which gives a 15% chance of parrying I think..

True in a sense and then again I don't think so.
47 enh, 39 staff, 20 parrry and 15 rej gives you last the haste (38%) and of course the absorb buffs. 39 is sufficient staff and like you said the parry is around 20 which is not that muched, still bugged in RvR anyway.

Evade well unless I'm wrong (and I could be) we get lvl 4 not 5

5, at least I have Evade 5

I am in no way saying friars are under-powered but don't start shouting HE's UBER GIMP HIM....before youve tried the character yourself . imho friars , with the onset of patch 1.52 will be nicely balanced and GOA should go balance other classes and leave us alone.....

I think that there is absolutely NO NEED for nerfing friars. To make it simple:
We are good at soloing mobs, fair enough. I mean we have virtually no downtime with end regen and heals... BUT it doesn't help much later on... soloing becomes too slow.
We have bad heals unless some crazy loony goes for high rejuv which is pointless unless you do that to help you level and the respec the line.
RvR... well look at the RP tables in the US and you'll see what I mean.
Sure all classes can get RPs if they group a lot but nothing like infils for example...