anyone think pure tanks are gonna be TOO invincible?! caster nerfs ahead :(

[old.Charonel]

ok, anyone think that the 1.53 tank changes are a little over the top? not all just a couple, but, it seems to me that for some reason, mythic have decided that pure tanks should be invincible...

mythic guy 1: how do we address the fact that tanks can't allways kill running targets?

mythic guy 2: dunno, any ideas?

small child: i know! give them every possible ra under the sun that will enable them to get resists so damn high that they will be almost immune to all forms of CC and nukes, and let them hit in meelee that can't be interupted for more than mages can nuke for, nerf all mage damage so that they can shrug off huge numbers of DD's, break most/all casters in the game, give them ALL 100% insta incombat heals, make it so that even if they do get CC'd they can just switch the CC off at will, give them the ability to proc a snare 30% of hits that snare's for utterly stupid amounts so there is NO escape, allow them all to run at higher speed than anyone else exept speed classes, and give them this for almost no realm points at all!, then let's add SC making it soooo easy to cap all magic resists in the game so the tanks can't get hit for pretty much anything anymore, then add alchemy etc... so that we can even give them another ton of special abilities!

mythic guy 1: OMG! that child! he's a PRODIGY!!!!

mythic guy 2: woah kid! come work for our dev team! your vision of a balanced game is wonderous to behold! all bow to the new messaih!

let me put it another way, a little story

lvl 50 P0W4H 1V13444R armsman with 2 days played steps into emain ready to be uber, he has NO realm points because his powerlvl'd 1337ness woudlnt allow the time off from the mobs, he finds a mile gate stand off (ooooh something unusual ) and the hibs decide to make a charge, so mr know it all armsman decides to stand on the hill and draws his xbow ready for some UB3R D4M4G3 PH4RM1NG!!!111

You shoot Hib Ranger for 57 (-12) damage!

uber tank now runs away from the hib zerg and goes back to hpk feeling rather proud of the stunning ownage he displayed, he is, for want of a better word "smug" .

a few minuits later the ranger get's killed by the alb 37fg's counter zerg and the uber tank recieves a whopping 26 realm points (his first ever) and 3 bounty points, mr uber tank can now afford PURGE!!!

does the simple phrase "OMFG!!" mean anything here? , i mean yes, changes DID need to be made, tanks needed helping out a bit but GOD! isn't it enough that CC get's nerfed anyway? why THIS?!

 

[Tesla Monkor]

The answer is simple. You lot (damage-dealing casters) do so much damage that the tanks actually need it to get to you.

If you see a tank charging you, and noone is there to defend you, you should die. Splat. Roadkill. Strength comes in numbers (But not too many, as noone likes zergs.

The solution is as easy. Make sure you don't get anywhere near the tanks. They hit very hard, but they have no ranged attacks at all. (Or the damage they do at range is a joke. Use that against them.

 

[recontour]

Muuuuuuuust make Crossbow specced Armsman.. Sooo leewt!..

Actully the changes arnt that bad at all, i can still rape pure tanks with my theugist. And they just nerfed First Aid so u cant use it in combat at all, before u just had to take off auto attack and wiat 2 seconds then use firstaid, now u have to take auto attack off and wait like 8 seconds and in that time ur dead, so they only really have Ignore Pain now, witch of cause is ubar and they get it cheep, but still its only once every 30mins so heck...

Quit bitching, make up some strats and get to work.

 

[Flimgoblin]

tanks will be able to compete for 30 seconds every 30 minutes...

zerging around an open field where range isn't such an issue then tanks will be quite scary...

fighting at a milegate or a keep where you can keep them at range? they'll not bother you.

whereas a patch ago it didn't matter where you fought - a tank was free RP (admittedly taking 3 or 4 nukes to get RP, but still no danger...)

 

[Danya]

*Rolls a tank*

 

[Flimgoblin]

charonel - roll a tank get it to a decent level and go slaughter all those casters...

I can promise you it won't be that easy. certainly going to be a far cry from pet+stun+nukes

 

[bishibosh]

damn, tanks might actually reach casters? surely its fair that they can be mezzed, stunned, nuked over and over until they die...

 

[Rasp]

The new changes in 1.53 are not what casters should be worried about. WIth spellcrafting in 1.54, tanks will have nicely tailored resists to go with their cheap realm abilities.

It's the melee hybrids like me that get stuffed when the changes for block and parry go in. I'm not complaining as the tanks did need some loving anyway.

 

[Fafnir]

When are they gonna fix thoose underhills, that nuke thru solid stone? Had two green con underhills on me in bled i was at lord, and got nuked i looked around, the ran down stair and they where standing just where the stair begin nuking me. Had to relog to make the hibs loose target on me.

Could this not be considerd bug abuse? Well spirits run up to the target and starts to bash, underhills just hide and nuke thru stone.

 

[Shike]

actually, in 1.54 casters in US reports that they get resisted a lot more than before, so we have:

Increased resists
Cheap RA's
Increased Blocking and Parrying in RvR
Alchemy to put reactive proccs on every armorpart
Spellcrafting to make some really really sweet gear

umm, I am definetely gonna work on a shield/Blunt hero soonish. Tanks will finally be tanks as I see it, assassins wont kill them as easy, casters will have to nuke a lot more on them, RA's so cheap that you can afford them early.

Tanks is gonna rock in 1.54

 

[noob_pride]

Tanks have been gimped from the start of the game and your MOANING? stfu

 

[Kagato.]

anyone think pure tanks are gonna be TOO invincible?!

Oh I do hope so,

but seriously, come on be realistic, the RA changes arn't that big

It used to cost 23 Realm Levels to buy Ignore Pain, and any class could, for pure tanks we can now buy it for 17 Realm Levels, thats hardly mega ownage, we get 6 levels back to buy a little aug strength or something. Its not going to turn the tides now.

And it still costs 4 levels for Purge, which on a 30 minute timer isn't that great I personally prefer Detirmination but each to there own.

Tanks were nothing but cannon fodder for casters in the past, now we have a slightly better chances in RvR your whining about it. Your just going to have to think on your feet for a change in the frontiers now when dealing with tanks.

To be quite honest though I don't think these changes are enough to have a significant impact on a tanks life out there. Just another budget fix by mythic to stop the complaining.

 

[old.Charonel]

with all due respect a pure tank should NOT be able to kill casters when starting the fight from max range, casters are supposed to own max range, if constantly nuking/CCing etc... from max range all the way to meelee can't bloody kill one then what's the point in even trying?

about purge, yes just checked and on herald it says 4 points, but every ra calculator i've ever seen says it's changed to 2 points, so dont really know what's going on with that one, but purge for a mere 350 rp's is still a bit over the top.

if a tank get's into meelee for what ever reason with me, yes i expect to die and accept it as what SHOULD happen, they're supposed to rule close combat, i am supposed to rule ranged combat (as you may well expect as a caster), yet with all what's coming with the future patches there is NO WAY IN HELL that a caster can kill a pure tank from max range if that tank actually knows what the hell he's doing, you dont hit for even nearly enough, they're almost entirely un CC'able etc... you can't even get away with the speed increases and snare's that they're getting, a caster should never be at max range against a lone target and be in the position of having the ONLY possible outcome of the battle be the dead caster, NOT FROM MAX RANGE.

if the casters been stupid enough to let the tank get close first then sure, but not max range...

 

[klavrynd]

looking at your siggie , you don't seem to have a clue what's it like to play a pure tank.

True, you have quite some hp, true you hit for quite some damage if you actually get close, but even though we got all the "uber loving" and have resists changing your damage and cc duration a bit, but usually being a tank is pure frustration.

there's the money issue, which is a real problem at low levels, especially when you're new to a server. Playing a tank is 40* as expensive as playing a caster.

Casters dont need armor, your AF buff allows you to run around in grey gear, and base armor is only usefull for stats, so drops > crafted in 99% of the drops. Buying a full set of new armor costs alot of money and you have to choose between either some nice extra stats or the added value from high quality crafted gear.

In most cases tanks carry 2 weapons, either s&b, 1 and two hander or two onehanders for dual wielding, which is alot more expensive then a staff. Again, qua doesnt matter for staves so basically dropped staves (staffs?) > crafted-storebought ones.

For pure tanks there's the pulling issue. Even though most (if not all) pure melee classes have some sort of pulling (some better then others *cough*nerf x-bow*cough*) pulling costs money, and bodypulling gives quite a risk on adds whereas casters can just nuke from safe distance, have some form of CC ready or can just run away when they see the fight will be a bit dangerous.

RvRwise casters can farm everywhere.from pks, mgs and keeps, you can allways nuke someone whereas pure tanks rely on the fact that invaders get in the keep or storm the lord (that is if they're not dead by then).

Casters have reigned the battlefield from day one and now you're whining because they maybe might get actually get close enough, hit more then one time because your bladeturn absorbs the first hit, and maybe even kill you....

do keep in mind that the tanks on your side get that love as well, and they're keeping your pansy nuking ass alive

 

[Archeon]

Originally posted by old.Charonel
with all due respect a pure tank should NOT be able to kill casters when starting the fight from max range, casters are supposed to own max range, if constantly nuking/CCing etc... from max range all the way to meelee can't bloody kill one then what's the point in even trying?

So according to you, a pure tank should stand no chance against a pure caster?... right

Anyway, moving on to sane conversation. The fact is that i'd rather play in a game where a battle isn't determined by the number of casters a group has. its true in all games casters have a distinct advantage over any other class due to the fact they can attack from a distance.

And i know a lot of tanks who started/gave up on their tank because they were constantly being owned by casters. Give tanks a break, they diserve to have an increase.

As you say, its PURE tanks only. thats

Warriors
Armsmen
and Guardians (Or hero's? i'm not totally sure)

I'm not sure if Zerka's are regarded as pure tanks, but who honestly cares. Midgard is the melee realm it makes sense we have an advantage in this area.

I could go on and on about this and that but i really can't be bothered, its a fairly stupid thing to complain about. I suggest you roll a pure tank for your realm before this patch get him to lvl50 and come back telling us that they don't diserve an advantage to make up for their short-falling.

I'm using the midgard 'Warrior' as my basis for this argument, you know the class with no defining feature? you'l probably see a lot of them in future and its a damn good think. more guard/prot for me

 

[old.Glendower]

A good candidate for the nerf bat

You want to talk what needs nerfing? How about that BS DoT Lance Spirit???

I think a chain-castable, ranged DoT that doesnt take a line of sight and does 170-240 pts a tick(for 6-7 ticks!), interrupts spellcasting, which resists dont decrease the damage of, and for which there is no counter (other than the once a moon GP, only to be redotted instantly) like a nice group cure disease spell, and you have an unbalancing mess.

This is BS right there.

 

[Meatballs]

Originally posted by bishibosh
damn, tanks might actually reach casters? surely its fair that they can be mezzed, stunned, nuked over and over until they die...

yeah and casters cant be mezzed or nuked or stunned!

 

[Meatballs]

Originally posted by klavrynd
do keep in mind that the tanks on your side get that love as well, and they're keeping your pansy nuking ass alive

and how do they do that? Unless they slam and I run, 1 tank cant defend me versus another tank before that other tank kills me. Hell 1 tank can kill me with 4-5 tanks beating on him nowadays :\

 

[Archeon]

Originally posted by Meatballs


yeah and casters cant be mezzed or nuked or stunned!

Mezzed = All Classes Stuck
Stun = Short Dura Stuck

Root = tank is forced to stand stikk taking pot shots any anyone that comes close enough, casters can still cast and it usually doesn't do anything but inturupt them. i don't profess to being a great and mightly lvl 50 uber l33t runemaster, but the time i placed my dark spec SM (before the PBAE patch, after which i deleted him) i didn't do much moving while i was involved in a siege at the tower exept to occasionally get behind some cover when an arrow removed my self-BT

Nuked = a caster has his QC trump which can allow him to interupt the other nuker indefinatly (assuming he's already used his QC) a tank can... urmm... well move back and hope to get out of range before he dies or run into the enemy zerg (don't act like you sit on the front lines trying to melee tanks) and try to take you out before the 7-8 tanks take him.


As it was already said, casters have a natural advantage due to range. Giving pure tanks a little somthing that will prodominatly help them in fights against Hybrid tanks is hardly somthing for you to worry about, i think you must be slightly worried because your a hib and thus your not a naturally strong tank realm. Don't worry just do a /relic and take a deep breath, that'l prove just how l33t you are

 

[Meatballs]

I agree that tanks *did* have problems versus casters, but I still fail to see how anyone cannot realise that a full 100% instacast heal which is unaffected by disease is a stupid idea? Its on a 30 min timer I hear you say! I have MoC its on a 30 minute timer, and its back for most of the times I really want/need it although its usually wasted by being mezzed/stunned straight after.

"Nuked = a caster has his QC trump which can allow him to interupt the other nuker indefinatly (assuming he's already used his QC) a tank can... urmm... well move back and hope to get out of range before he dies or run into the enemy zerg (don't act like you sit on the front lines trying to melee tanks) and try to take you out before the 7-8 tanks take him."

Yeah great you can interrupt that caster which is great seen as we can kill each other in 2 nukes, that gives us lots of time to find them, retarget, q/c nuke ;d

The tank can - a) ip b) FA2 c) (if one of a few classes) use insta (ie flurry) d) get healing support class to heal (casters can do this too but healers find it very hard to keep up with casters dieing).

When FA2 gets fixed that'll be quite a big help to casters, but atm \/ to all you exploiting cunts

If you ever fight outside a zerg, you'll never have 7-8 tanks attacking your aggressor, you're lucky if you get maybe 2, and even luckier if they have slam.

And if you never moved around at a keep then you obviously never got out of thidranki with your SM, you stick still on battlements and assasin will climb up and punish you. Standing still on battlefield doesn't have its advantages either, assasins again get time to attack you, other tanks move towards you, you stay in range of other casters.

Oh and erm, if a caster get stunned they can never survive the duration if they have anyone on them, and if a caster gets mezzed, they usually die soon after it is broken by an aggressor without much of a chance to fight back.

 

[klavrynd]

and how do they do that? Unless they slam and I run, 1 tank cant defend me versus another tank before that other tank kills me. Hell 1 tank can kill me with 4-5 tanks beating on him nowadays :\

Nothing more annoying then a caster being guarded by some dexmonster with a shield. and if one tank can kill you with 4 or 5 tanks on him your party-colleague rvr'ers need some training

Ignore Skills has nothing to do with it. Realm abilities were put into the game to make up for shoddy class design and clever marketing guys turned it into a nice extra.

Don't get me wrong, you're allowed to do shedloads of damage, but expect that when you're targetted you go down rather quickly.

 

[Tranquil-]

Re: A good candidate for the nerf bat

Originally posted by old.Glendower
You want to talk what needs nerfing? How about that BS DoT Lance Spirit???

I think a chain-castable, ranged DoT that doesnt take a line of sight and does 170-240 pts a tick(for 6-7 ticks!), interrupts spellcasting, which resists dont decrease the damage of

That AEdot only does that damage if he gets a good crit on it. To get a crit on dots you also need to buy the RA Wild Arcana. The damage is without a crit between 100-130 iirc and lasts 6 ticks. Also, it only interrupts on the first tick, just as any dot. Resists do decrease DoT damage. Get some matter resists.

 

[Kagato.]

about purge, yes just checked and on herald it says 4 points, but every ra calculator i've ever seen says it's changed to 2 points

It was going to be 2 points at first when they tested the patch then they took it back up to 4 instead, its is quite specifically 4 now.

And so what, we get IP slightly, ever so slightly cheaper then the other classes get it for, which might just let us get close to the caster who we then miss due to blade turn, get insta-stunned, rooted, mezzed or whatever just so the caster can run off and rinse and repeat till we are dead again.

Don't start whining till we have played the patch man, if it was that bad they'd be whining about it on the US servers by now. Whats wrong, afraid of a challange now that we are no longer just cannon fodder for you?

 

[old.Mirandalia]

After a quick read-through of the thread, I notice that it has turned into a tank vs mage discussion and therefore I just have to say something.

Most mages use ranged attacks to do damage (some don't, won't get into that now), if they are to kill anything at all these mages have to keep the target away from melee (since melee stops the mage from doing anything).
So, we can take a quick look at how a fight goes these days...
If you are an eldritch most tanks you fight have high cold resist and you will find you hit tanks for really awkward damage, I can't kill a tank that's buffed etc in this patch...

So then you want to be even less resistant to my spells?


Give me a freaking break, mages don't live more than 8 sec in a battle nowadays, and you want us to live 4 sec?
I'll give up before that happens, ooh wait, I have....
I have basically abandoned rvr.

My fortune PvP starts in a few hours

 

[old.Charonel]

they already ARE whining about it on US servers.

the problem isnt that they can REACH the mages, it's that they can reach them through a full DD storm, having started charging at them from clipping range, be on 100% health when they get there, STILL have fa2 ready, be almost entirely unmezzable/stunnable etc... have a damn good chance of proccing a 50% snare on meelee hits (about a 30% chance), even if they DO get stunned it'll only last just over 2 seconds for the baseline 9 second stun, and during those two seconds they'll STILL be interupting the caster. THAT'S BULLSHIT.

and if you manage to mezz them as an utter last resort so you can possibly hope to hell that you just MAY have a chance to reach backup before the inevitable death, that also will last a ridiculously short time, or they'll just purge it anyway with their stupidly cheap version of purge.

these changes dont do the intended use, which was to make tanks stand more of a chance (as they DID need), it instead made them invincible agaisnt all mages because the absolutely instane amount of extremely cheap magic resists they can rack up end up with mages doing almost no damage to them even when they CAN attack.

if your a tank, you can own meelee, that's your strength, that and taking hits without dying for a period of time far in excess of a caster, with the conbined increase in resists they'll get in combination with the stupidly overpowered IP realm ability you have just, at the very least, given them effectively four times the hit points when your talking about attacking them with magic, coupled with what may as well be immunity to all forms of CC, along with a "kill the CC" insta for 4 ra points if you do somehow manage to get hit with one lasting longer than a few seconds.

add to this that caster CC has been nerfed ANYWAY because of resists effecting it's already short duration, and double nerfed when used on these classes because of the insane resists they can easily get for next to nothing, there is going to be NOTHING a caster can do to kill one, at all, even if you have total and complete range advantage.

and remember, casters drop fast once that tank gets through all the DD's pretty much unscathed.

 

[Kagato.]

STILL have fa2 ready

Which you will note is NOT usable in combat and is fixed as such in same or next patch.

have a damn good chance of proccing a 50% snare on meelee hits (about a 30% chance),

That snare is a 10 level cost RA which few tanks will bother with except those with a really big grudge against skalds, and even fewer tanks can afford with are generally poor RP income when we are having to spend 23 levels or even 17 soon level to by IP, Purge, Detirmination or any other RA which we NEED to survive as these are our supposed classes fixes, where as all the power you casters have you get through innate class strengths in RvR without having to earn them with RPS and then buy them like we have too.

Oh how the mighty have fallen.

 

[old.Charonel]

fa2 is ENTIRELY usable, there's this little thing called slam, use it when you reach the caster, if you are on very low health (would only happen in this patch really ) then wait a bit and use fa just as they come out of slam, shouldnt be to hard to time right, it'll take a certain amount ot time for them to cast again even with a quickcast. or alternatively you could, with great ease, kill them during slam...

 

[PJS]

I see noone has mentioned the fact that outright resisted spells are going to increase drastically in the upcoming patches

 

[old.Lythande]

They already have, this "bug" was introduced in 1.52. Total resists are nowadays calculated by spell level versus target lvl, maybe it gets worse in the next few patches (god I hope not) but I've sure noticed it after my respec especially with my speclvl 11 nearsight.

On the real topic however I'd like to add that anyone who says casters can breeze through RvR killing every tank in sight must be playing some other game than I am. Usual situation for me in RvR is that we get into a fight and I start casting, if I stand still to cast more than once or twice I have 3-4 tanks on me that just ran through the tanks in my group and I start sprinting, this can keep me alive for a few secs before I run out of endurance and I die in 2 hits, even if some tanks in my group tries to kill those tanks /stuck to me spamming their one make-baddie-die style on the q-bar 90% of the time I'm dead.

Another problem is that while Mythic have given tanks roughly 3-4 times as much HP(counting ridiculous resists, IP, FA2 etc) casters haven't gotten anything remotely comparable we got MCL which is good I admit but about to get nerfed in US(you can't cast it while in combat, err, while ANYONE in your group is in combat), but I guess they figured we'd be dead before we need to use it anyway and most of the time that seems accurate.

In all fairness I'd like resist-chants and buffs for melee-resists so I could actually survive 2 hits from a spearo. Cuz when your one and only means of damage is hitting for 220(-220) you know its time to stop (That means 50% resist for the slow kids in the back). Unfortunately it'd only prolong the inevitable since Mythic in all their wisdom thought it prudent that everything from a fly farting in Jordheim to the wisper of the wind in the trees in Emain to be able to interrupt casters and totally nullify them.

 

[klavrynd]

One thing you seem to forget on the resistance issue is that casters need to buff up on 3 resistances (crush/slash/thrust) vs tanks whereas tanks have 6 (heat/cold/matter/body/spirit/energy) they need to buff up to have damage absorption from all casters. Add to that the fact you can easily swap a piece of armor for lower qua dropped stuff to maximise resists and have minor consequences of it.

On the hp remark : The game isn't only RvR , the little part before that called exping is a major part as well. I do think that you were happing whilst exping that the tanks you grouped with had shedloads of hp.


ps : Everyone says that casters die so easily even when there's 4/5 other tanks hitting the aggressor, why the hell do i instadie everytime i target walker then? ~~