Anders Breivek

[Chosen]

Fucking hell, can't you read? It says on the stats the exact population growth from 1st Jan 2010 to 1st Jan 2011. Its 62,289 for the whole population and of that total, 49,146 for "Immigrants and Norwegian-born to immigrant parents". Once again, about half of the figure you're quoting! Its right there on the link you gave!

"Størst tilvekst av europeiske innvandrere
De europeiske innvandrerne utgjorde 27 400 av den totale tilveksten på 41 200 personer i 2010. Som tidligere var tilveksten størst blant innvandrere med bakgrunn fra Polen, med 7 600 flere bosatte i løpet av 2010. Deretter fulgte innvandrere fra Litauen og Sverige, med en tilvekst på henholdsvis 5 700 og 2 800 personer.
Antall innvandrere passerte en halv million i løpet av 2010. Det er flest innvandrere fra Polen, med 57 000. Antallet innvandrere fra Sverige var 33 000, mens det var 23 000 fra Tyskland og 21 000 fra Irak. "

Here it says that we passed 500k immigrants in 2010.

"Tallet på innvandrere og norskfødte med innvandrerforeldre i Norge er nå 600 900. Disse to gruppene utgjorde 12,2 prosent av befolkningen i Norge per 1. januar 2011."

And here it says that 1. january 2011 we had 600 900 immigrants. So I will cross check the referance later and find out where the fault is.

 

[DaGaffer]

No point in getting hung up on numbers - it's still a fair whack for a country of only 5 million...

You have to get hung up on the numbers if the ones being quoted are out by nearly 100%! So just over a tenth of Norway's population is immigrant - big deal, its not like the place can't afford it (or lacks the room) and as I'm trying to point out, the cultural effects cited by Breivik as a defence are also overstated; the biggest cultural influx into Norway is from people who are damn near as "nordic" as they are.

 

[throdgrain]

If it's a big deal to them, then it IS a big deal, my learned linkmaster

 

[Scouse]

Is Anders pissed off about muslims or is he pissed off about "multiculturalism"? If the latter then what the muslim population actually is becomes a moot point.

 

[Chosen]

Is Anders pissed off about muslims or is he pissed off about "multiculturalism"? If the latter then what the muslim population actually is becomes a moot point.

It is multiculturalism, it is not like he hates muslims. He actually likes Mullah krekar, and wants him to testify for him in the court because he share the same view as him on multiculturalism.

 

[DaGaffer]

"Størst tilvekst av europeiske innvandrere
De europeiske innvandrerne utgjorde 27 400 av den totale tilveksten på 41 200 personer i 2010. Som tidligere var tilveksten størst blant innvandrere med bakgrunn fra Polen, med 7 600 flere bosatte i løpet av 2010. Deretter fulgte innvandrere fra Litauen og Sverige, med en tilvekst på henholdsvis 5 700 og 2 800 personer.
Antall innvandrere passerte en halv million i løpet av 2010. Det er flest innvandrere fra Polen, med 57 000. Antallet innvandrere fra Sverige var 33 000, mens det var 23 000 fra Tyskland og 21 000 fra Irak. "

Here it says that we passed 500k immigrants in 2010.

"Tallet på innvandrere og norskfødte med innvandrerforeldre i Norge er nå 600 900. Disse to gruppene utgjorde 12,2 prosent av befolkningen i Norge per 1. januar 2011."

And here it says that 1. january 2011 we had 600 900 immigrants. So I will cross check the referance later and find out where the fault is.

The 100K "gap" is "Norwegian-born to immigrant parents". You're looking at two different stats. 100K people didn't suddenly arrive in 12 months.

 

[Chosen]

The 100K "gap" is "Norwegian-born to immigrant parents". You're looking at two different stats. 100K people didn't suddenly arrive in 12 months.

Yeah, with immigrants I am also talking about those born by immigrants in Norway. They are not less of a "muslim" even tho they are born in Norway.

 

[DaGaffer]

Yeah, with immigrants I am also talking about those born by immigrants in Norway. They are not less of a "muslim" even tho they are born in Norway.

Never said they were, but they're included in the 170K I arrived at and have no bearing on claims of "100K more immigrants in 12 months" you were making.

 

[Chosen]

Never said they were, but they're included in the 170K I arrived at and have no bearing on claims of "100K more immigrants in 12 months" you were making.

Yeah, I saw all those numbers you put up excluding from different countries. But I never saw where you got those numbers from.

 

[Chosen]

Never said they were, but they're included in the 170K I arrived at and have no bearing on claims of "100K more immigrants in 12 months" you were making.

And yes it would have something to say about the "100k statement I made" because even tho it is born by muslim parents in Norway, it still adds up to how many muslims there is here.

And since there is no numbers from the year 1 january 2011 til 1 january 2012 there should be quite alot you have not calculated with. If the none ethnical population increased 100k from 2010 til 2011, then it should be a even higher growth from 2011 - 2012(This included muslim immigrants, and newborns by already Norwegian muslims).

 

[Scouse]

So just over a tenth of Norway's population is immigrant - big deal

Have a look at the video Chosen posted. I'm presuming it's a reasonably decent view of how Norwegians see their country and prison system. The important thing to note is their cultural approach - a culture that would treat murderers to an island-paradise prison (though still a prison). A well-educated highly literate culture.

Do you not think that a large immigrant population could be highly destabilising to the way of life that they've carefully cultivated? I would think that having a tenth of the population think, feel and act in a substantially different way to the general population, exercising their democratic rights to change what has previously been working for the, shall we call them "long-term inhabitants", would cause upset, create feelings of resentment etc...?

I.E. If it leads the more "extreme" ones (Anders) to murder sprees against the children of a government that they percieve as threatening ruin to their "utopia" - do you not think there are huge swathes of the general population who are deeply unhappy at these changes.

A lower immigration rate could alleviate these problems. People take generations to become "naturalised". The rate at which we force people of hugely different cultures together (for economic reasons) is hugely controversial...

 

[Chilly]

A country has a right to be monocultural (as far as that is possible) and it's none of our fucking business.

 

[Gumbo]

Norway is very far ahead, but also very far behind the UK in so many ways. Immigration stands out because it's happened very fast there, and very late. The UK obviously had the big Afro Caribbean immigration famously in the 50's and 60's for bus driving etc. We had the Indians, pakistanis and Bangladeshis too, all a bit of a trickle over that time right up until now, and then over the last few years the Eastern Europeans and the Iraqi/Afghan/African assylum seekers.

For the UK we've had 50 years to get used to it. This is not racist, but no doubt someone will call me on it. 'We've' got used to seeing people whos skin is a different colour to ours. It's not so in Norway. I have spent quite a lot of time there, but haven't actually been for about 10 years or so I don't think. Before that I would go every 18 months or so, alternating summer and winter trips. My mother is Norweigan (an immigrant to the UK then I guess).

When I used to go, spending time in Oslo and out in the countryside, there were practically no black/asian people. You could go days without seeing them, or even a full fortnight trip without seeing one. If you were out at night, you might find one driving a taxi, but that was it. Watching the news reports from oslo, there are a large number of ethnically diverse people in the back of the shots now.

If they are now 10% of the population, I would imagine probably concentrated in the urban areas, then I can see how it would have the perception, for ordinary Norweigan folks, of being a huge difference. Massive. There's been no time to get used to the idea, it's just happened all in a hurry, wham!

I don't think this is any kind of reason to set off bombs and shoot teenagers, but I can see how for a country that 10 years ago had a few drunk Glasweigan oil workers staying for a few months at a time as the height of it's immigration. To what it is now 1 in 10 people thought of as 'foreigners', it's got a way to go to adjust.

 

[DaGaffer]

And yes it would have something to say about the "100k statement I made" because even tho it is born by muslim parents in Norway, it still adds up to how many muslims there is here.

And since there is no numbers from the year 1 january 2011 til 1 january 2012 there should be quite alot you have not calculated with. If the none ethnical population increased 100k from 2010 til 2011, then it should be a even higher growth from 2011 - 2012(This included muslim immigrants, and newborns by already Norwegian muslims).

Oh ffs! The population didn't increase by 100,000 between 2010 and 2011! How many more times, you're not reading the stats properly. The population of the whole country grew by 60K. So 2011 to 2012 was probably similar.

Do you not think that a large immigrant population could be highly destabilising to the way of life that they've carefully cultivated?

Frankly, no. Because the rate of change being bandied about is overstated. Its taken 20 years for the immigrant (and immigrant offspring) population to reach 600K. It is NOT growing at 100K per year and MOST of the people arriving will have very little impact on Norwegian culture anyway because they're either a. temporary (like the Poles in the main), or b. pretty damn similar to Norwegians anyway (like the Germans, Swedes, Danes and Brits who make up nearly a third of the numbers).

I would think that having a tenth of the population think, feel and act in a substantially different way to the general population, exercising their democratic rights to change what has previously been working for the, shall we call them "long-term inhabitants", would cause upset, create feelings of resentment etc...?

See above. The "tenth" of the population who think, feel and act in a substantially different way, isn't a tenth, its a much smaller number. In addition, you've fallen for the common anti-immigration trope that every immigrant brings all their cultural baggage with them and clings on to it. Believe it or not, most of the long term immigrants in most countries want to integrate, even the moslems.

I.E. If it leads the more "extreme" ones (Anders) to murder sprees against the children of a government that they percieve as threatening ruin to their "utopia" - do you not think there are huge swathes of the general population who are deeply unhappy at these changes.

General reaction to Breivik's actions seem to indicate otherwise. And should policy be set based on the actions of the extreme minority? If so, he's won.

A lower immigration rate could alleviate these problems. People take generations to become "naturalised". The rate at which we force people of hugely different cultures together (for economic reasons) is hugely controversial...

True, but as I said, its really not that high.

A country has a right to be monocultural (as far as that is possible) and it's none of our fucking business.

I'm sure that's what they said about Germany before 1939.

 

[Scouse]

It's not the mass influx of "brown skin" that's the problem for Norway - they're well educated (better than us thick brits were - especially in the 50's) - it's the mass influx of different cultures.

I.E. A different way of thinking. A different approach to life. If it's 10% that quickly then it's too fast to be properly assimilated and can quite reasonably be seen as an assault on their way of life.

Edit: Gah gaff. Posting at inopportune moments

Believe it or not, most of the long term immigrants in most countries want to integrate, even the moslems.

Not. That's not my experience at all. They say they want to "integrate" but they still want their kids to wear burkhas, still want sharia courts, in Norways case they won't want murderers sent to that island...

3rd generation in, their kids start to rebel and they become more "naturalised" - but has Norway had 60 years?

 

[DaGaffer]

Not. That's not my experience at all. They say they want to "integrate" but they still want their kids to wear burkhas, still want sharia courts, in Norways case they won't want murderers sent to that island...

3rd generation in, their kids start to rebel and they become more "naturalised" - but has Norway had 60 years?

There's a percentage who won't integrate, just like there's a percentage here who won't. But its not the majority (its also not a binary thing, speaking as an immigrant, we all have lines in the sand about stuff); I'd also argue that the UK isn't Norway. Thanks to our actions of the last decade, there are large populations of moslems (particularly Pakistanis) who were busily integrating in Britain but who've now started to go the other way. Norway doesn't have that experience, and start to look at the actual numbers and its a percentage of a percentage of a percentage.

 

[Scouse]

General reaction to Breivik's actions seem to indicate otherwise. And should policy be set based on the actions of the extreme minority? If so, he's won.

I think people express horror at the murders, but I think there's probably huge swathes of people who feel that way (though wouldn't kill for it). Policy should not be set based on the actions of an extreme minority - but it should be borne in mind that the majority don't actually take any action - only extremists do...

 

[Chilly]

I'm sure that's what they said about Germany before 1939.

I don't actually see what the fundamental problem with the desire to be insular is? If I go and buy an island somewhere and say "white english people from Oxfordshire only" surely that's my right and if like minded people care to join me then fair enough.

I can see that in a country that's already very multicultural racism is simply uncool, but in a country where it's not widespread then surely they have a right to keep it that way. It's their country, after all?

 

[DaGaffer]

I don't actually see what the fundamental problem with the desire to be insular is? If I go and buy an island somewhere and say "white english people from Oxfordshire only" surely that's my right and if like minded people care to join me then fair enough.

I can see that in a country that's already very multicultural racism is simply uncool, but in a country where it's not widespread then surely they have a right to keep it that way. It's their country, after all?

Because you live in an interconnected world. Of course its Norway's right to select who they do and don't want in their country, but in the long run, if you want an economy, you have to open up. I nearly went to work in Oslo for a software company, because, I guess, there weren't enough Norwegians with my experience. Its also a bit hypocritical to get sniffy about immigrants when Norway was, (like Ireland), a net exporter of people until North Sea oil came along. The place was dirt poor and people left looking for better opportunities. Sound familiar?

 

[Chilly]

Because you live in an interconnected world. Of course its Norway's right to select who they do and don't want in their country, but in the long run, if you want an economy, you have to open up. I nearly went to work in Oslo for a software company, because, I guess, there weren't enough Norwegians with my experience. Its also a bit hypocritical to get sniffy about immigrants when Norway was, (like Ireland), a net exporter of people until North Sea oil came along. The place was dirt poor and people left looking for better opportunities. Sound familiar?

Yeah that's fair enough. For us all to prosper we need to get over the bullshit. This stuff will have to shake itself out over the next couple of generations, though, surely?

 

[throdgrain]

I don't actually see what the fundamental problem with the desire to be insular is? If I go and buy an island somewhere and say "white english people from Oxfordshire only" surely that's my right and if like minded people care to join me then fair enough.

I can see that in a country that's already very multicultural racism is simply uncool, but in a country where it's not widespread then surely they have a right to keep it that way. It's their country, after all?

I dont know if this is a troll but I agree with it anyway. So there.

 

[Gahn]

Hang him ... IMO!

 

[Job]

The world is shrinking and changing and that change is causing a confrontation of ideas, soon every country will be annysville, a collection of cultures, colours all overseen by political correctness and in that huge pit of sameness, anyone who can hold onto something from the past will be shining light of difference.
In 200 years time we will ache for what we had.

 

[Zenith]

How can mixing cultures be the same as the death of all cultures? Get your head out of your arse, get some real facts that is not your own judgement-day type propaganda.

I'll look up the links to some studies done in Sweden. The actual conclusion was that the ethnicity of the criminals was not decisive factor to the prospect of a criminal career; it was the location of the individual. No matter the ethnicity of the individual, living in a ghetto increase the future prospect of a criminal career.

 

[DaGaffer]

[QUOTE="Job]
In 200 years time we will ache for what we had.[/QUOTE]

Yeah because that's what we do, wish for what life was like 200 years ago. I for one regret the passing of the press gang and transportation. And say what you like about old Boney, he got Europe organised.

You're a fucking idiot.

 

[BloodOmen]

all these arguements... whats the point really? the guys a fucking monster it doesnt matter what way you spin it to try and make him look less like a murdering fuck, tie the cunt to a railway line and run the cunt over with a locomotive.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Who's a monster?

Breivik or Job?

 

[Job]

Yeah because that's what we do, wish for what life was like 200 years ago. I for one regret the passing of the press gang and transportation. And say what you like about old Boney, he got Europe organised.

You're a fucking idiot.

I'm just going to leave that reply as a shrine to out of context.
You missed out Polio, Slavery and poverty all closely related to the topic in hand.