Anders Breivek

[Job]

Thanks for posting that I've no doubt on an individual basis, the troops out there have far more compassion
and considerably less of an idea of martyrdom than the fanatics you are dealing with.
I very much doubt any fighter on the other side would risk his life to save the kids, because life is a lot cheaper out there and the end goal takes over.
You have to understand when I talk about the forces , the vast , vast majority of the ground troops are as level headed as you can be under those conditions, it's the disconnected decision makers at the top who have a lot a conflicting motives that cause the deaths then cover up their tracks.

 

[Chosen]

Thanks for posting that I've no doubt on an individual basis, the troops out there have far more compassion
and considerably less of an idea of martyrdom than the fanatics you are dealing with.
I very much doubt any fighter on the other side would risk his life to save the kids, because life is a lot cheaper out there and the end goal takes over.
You have to understand when I talk about the forces , the vast , vast majority of the ground troops are as level headed as you can be under those conditions, it's the disconnected decision makers at the top who have a lot a conflicting motives that cause the deaths then cover up their tracks.

Of course most of the top(Politicians) tries to cover up their tracks if something occurs that is not good for their "reputation". But what I tried to say earlier in this thread, is that none of the western armies in the modern society would order their troops to intentionally kill children or civilians at all!

Killing civilians in war backfires at you, even if it was a accident. Loosing the faith of the people in both the war filled country and you're own, is probably the worst that can happen to any military leaders/politicians. This is why it is so sad that cases like the American soldier that went on a rampage for not so many weeks ago drags everyone down with him, even tho it was a act of his own!(This caused several dangerous situations for all allied soldiers we have down there, and the vast majority is good and kind human beings.)

 

[Zenith]

Why are we getting ourselves trapped in this silly game of trying to take on the moral high horse? In the given state of international relations, neither the muslim or the west cant. It doesnt take away the brutal horror that is kids or adults getting murdered, be it Baghdad, Utoya or anywhere else.

It's common sense and realistic that deaths closer to home strikes up more emotion, though.

 

[Zenith]

Of course most of the top(Politicians) tries to cover up their tracks if something occurs that is not good for their "reputation". But what I tried to say earlier in this thread, is that none of the western armies in the modern society would order their troops to intentionally kill children or civilians at all!

Killing civilians in war backfires at you, even if it was a accident. Loosing the faith of the people in both the war filled country and you're own, is probably the worst that can happen to any military leaders/politicians. This is why it is so sad that cases like the American soldier that went on a rampage for not so many weeks ago drags everyone down with him, even tho it was a act of his own!(This caused several dangerous situations for all allied soldiers we have down there, and the vast majority is good and kind human beings.)

If some soldiers have it in them to play torture games in American prisons down in Afganistan and Irak, it's not a huge leap to intentionally killing children, be it in the rush of battle or not. The helicopter video released on Wikileaks and several droneattacks on schools spring to mind. Yep, different kind of killing, different scenarios, but who are we to really differentiate the "level of evil"?

I'm not, at all, saying every soldier in the army is evil, corrupt bastard who kills children. Far, FAR from it, but there is a small minority that have been proven to commit foul crimes in the battlefield. A minority, in the same way Breivik is a minority of the Norwegian population.


Sorry, the quote was not entirely correct, the text not really direccted at you Chosen, my apologies.

 

[Job]

Seeing Anders crying for his country, this tears me in two, what he did was evil beyond belief, but I too am crying for Norway and Britain and all the countries that are throwing thousand of years of culture down the pan by leaving their borders wide open to a cesspit of cultures, traditions and moralities that just can't mix that fast, I really don't know the thinking behind it, but it's being done with purpose against the wishes of the majority and you'll be searching for along time to find one person who thinks it's a good idea.
For all his lunacy, I think this will be a decisive point in the battle to come.

 

[Tuthmes]

GTFOADCB

 

[Hawkwind]

Why not do what the US do and add up the charges?
It's how they can get 1000 year prison sentences.

Because the legal system in the US is basically showbiz and you always need a big finish in any show to make it newsworthy.

 

[Zenith]

Seeing Anders crying for his country, this tears me in two, what he did was evil beyond belief, but I too am crying for Norway and Britain and all the countries that are throwing thousand of years of culture down the pan by leaving their borders wide open to a cesspit of cultures, traditions and moralities that just can't mix that fast, I really don't know the thinking behind it, but it's being done with purpose against the wishes of the majority and you'll be searching for along time to find one person who thinks it's a good idea.
For all his lunacy, I think this will be a decisive point in the battle to come.

Couldnt disagree more. Loads of my friends are muslim, hindu, asian or central europa. Celebrate both ours and their cultures at times. Speak for yourself, I do not believe mixing cultures is a bad idea, and that we are throwing away our culture due to open borders is a joke. The biggest threat to all cultures, in my view, is globalisation and the emerging "superbrands" and "global cultures".

 

[Raven]

Seeing Anders crying for his country, this tears me in two, what he did was evil beyond belief, but I too am crying for Norway and Britain and all the countries that are throwing thousand of years of culture down the pan by leaving their borders wide open to a cesspit of cultures, traditions and moralities that just can't mix that fast, I really don't know the thinking behind it, but it's being done with purpose against the wishes of the majority and you'll be searching for along time to find one person who thinks it's a good idea.
For all his lunacy, I think this will be a decisive point in the battle to come.

Which culture would that be exactly? British and English culture is made up of all sorts of cultures, always has been, always will be.

You're just another ignorant racist. A dying breed. please piss off somewhere where your views are acceptable, Engalnd doesn't need you.

 

[Scouse]

Which culture would that be exactly? British and English culture is made up of all sorts of cultures, always has been, always will be.

You're just another ignorant racist. A dying breed. please piss off somewhere where your views are acceptable, Engalnd doesn't need you.

I actually disagree with that. British and English culture has been (until the last hundred years or so) a predominantly white christian culture. It still is, but much much less so.

However, I agree with Zenith - Globalisation/Global culture, brought on by capitalism, is to blame for most of the decline - not immigration.

As for Job having to piss off somewhere else - being (I presume) English, from England, where do you expect him to go? He's perfectly entitled to hold that view - which is a very commonly held one (I'd say it's probably the majority view). It's one I disagree with - but I also think that line about pissing off somewhere else is ridiculous...

 

[Zenith]

On the topic of Breivik - it seems he can get 21 years of solid prison time at maximum. However, and Norwegians, do correct me if Im wrong, but he could potentially get another 21 years of time if he gets tried again? Apparently there is another way though, in which he would not get prison, but would rather be "stored away" from the public (Not sure if after or instead of prison time) for the security of the public and for himself. To get out in 21 years, being a 54 year old man, he would probably get killed instantly.

Im all for getting EVERYONE, including Breivik, a trial, but cant help myself than to think this is excactly what he wanted. The trial is 10 weeks, _800_ accredited journalists reporting and he gets _five_ days for himself, to explain anything he'd like. Is media exposure not a big reason why crimes like this happen?

 

[DaGaffer]

Seeing Anders crying for his country, this tears me in two, what he did was evil beyond belief, but I too am crying for Norway and Britain and all the countries that are throwing thousand of years of culture down the pan by leaving their borders wide open to a cesspit of cultures, traditions and moralities that just can't mix that fast, I really don't know the thinking behind it, but it's being done with purpose against the wishes of the majority and you'll be searching for along time to find one person who thinks it's a good idea.
For all his lunacy, I think this will be a decisive point in the battle to come.

Well, since thousands of years of culture managed to create a man who thinks it morally acceptable to gun down schoolkids, forgive me if I don't weep for that "culture" too much.

I love the way people like you think that a few people arriving under a train at Dover marks the death of western culture. How about a having a bit of confidence in your own culture? All the evidence shows immigrants tend to assimilate into the host culture within 2-3 generations. Of course if the host culture decided the best way to deal with "the problem" is to ghettoise immigrants and keep them at the margins, that process will inevitably take longer.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

I love the way people shouted at me for saying he's racist, every few weeks it gets stronger and stronger. Referring to any culture but ours as a cesspit? Yeah, not racist at all

 

[Raven]

I actually disagree with that. British and English culture has been (until the last hundred years or so) a predominantly white christian culture. It still is, but much much less so.

True, however for the last hundred years or so (much longer for European immigration) England and the UK as a whole has accepted foreigners into our culture, who have added to it. Today there is very little that is truly English, even most things considered English aren't really English, morris dancing alone probably and that's cringe worthy. Racists and xenophobes like Job don't seem to see it though, I am not quite sure what he actually wants, I am not even sure he knows what he wants, he just has a problem with "them dirty foreigners".

England is no longer a Christian country, most people may well be called Christians but it is a tiny percentage of the population that are real practising Christians, thankfully I like to think we are a bit more free than that these days, we don't need religion any more. Yeah sure our history is Christian but we have had an industrial and technological revolution and two game changing world wars since England was really Christian. It would be nice if we could get rid of the last relics of Christianity that plague our politics, it will happen in the next couple of decades I imagine. As for fears of Islamic law getting into criminal law...wont happen. They only time it is even considered is civil law and only then on very specific cases and not necessarily recognised by the real courts.

 

[Scouse]

Referring to any culture but ours as a cesspit?

I guess he feels that other cultures coming into Britain, where women are supposed to be treated equally, crime is low etc. is making a mockery of it.

It could be racism, or it could be an acknowledgement that immigrants bring crime, disease and wife-beating with them.

Each one of those things is true. Higher levels of crime comes hand in hand with immigration. One of the main propagators of AIDS (and other diseases) is immigration. Mass muslim immigration has brought with it honour killings and sharia law.


To dismiss his opinion offhand as racist is to ignore certain realities of immigration. In that context the phrase is descriptive, if emotive.

True, however for the last hundred years or so (much longer for European immigration) England and the UK as a whole has accepted foreigners into our culture, who have added to it. Today there is very little that is truly English, even most things considered English aren't really English

I agree. Immigrants have added much to Britain - but they've also taken away from it.

What you're describing there is a wiping out of "English" culture by immigration.

I.E. The very thing that Job is moaning about you acknowledge as true, and the very thing that Anders went on his rampage about is true.

 

[Raven]

He is a racist though. Not once has he ever put across a real argument.

There is only a higher level crime when we cram them all together and make it hard for them to get work, exactly the same as UK nationals.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

I guess he feels that other cultures coming into Britain, where women are supposed to be treated equally, crime is low etc. is making a mockery of it.

It could be racism, or it could be an acknowledgement that immigrants bring crime, disease and wife-beating with them.

Each one of those things is true. Higher levels of crime comes hand in hand with immigration. One of the main propagators of AIDS (and other diseases) is immigration. Mass muslim immigration has brought with it honour killings and sharia law.


To dismiss his opinion offhand as racist is to ignore certain realities of immigration. In that context the phrase is descriptive, if emotive.



I agree. Immigrants have added to the culture. However, what you're describing there is a wiping out of "English" culture by immigration.

I.E. The very thing that Job is moaning about you acknowledge is true, and the very thing that Anders went on his rampage about is true.

 

[Scouse]

Nice argument there Waz. Care to answer any of the points I made?

Personally - I don't give a fuck if Job is racist or not - I'm not...

 

[chipper]

the problem is and i hold my hands up to this as well, change scares us. a trip through dubai some years ago scared the shit out of me for no other reason than the clothes they wore i couldnt help thinking they got a bomb under it foolish i know but it was a real paranoia for me.

the world is a smaller place than it used to be we can travel to the other side of the world in 24 hours a message can be shared among millions in minutes. it cannot be stopped and im starting to think it shouldnt be.

multiculturalism is here like it or not its not coming its not on the horizon, its here the more we try to stave it off the more nutcases like this we will have. making ghetto communities of ethnic minorities simply breeds hate and fear they hate us for boxing them in so to speak. and we fear them just because someone who dresses like them screams jihad. its no longer a case of losing our national identity that will never happen it just means we have to be more open to other cultures and there beliefs a christian has no problem with a buddhist why have one with a muslim?

that been said i firmly believe we have some MPs and activist groups that are just taking it too far banning wearing the cross waving the england flag etc i see nothing wrong with either of those if people take offence at that then they are the ones having trouble integrating to a multi cultural society.

we have to accept we are stuck in the cultural dark ages and its not going to change over night. until we can accept one another for who we are, we are a doomed race. i dont find it easy accepting change even a year ago id be throwing my ideals about how we need to protect our national identity and send them all back etc. but i must admit i had a long hard look at my ideals after the events in norway and decided i didnt want to think along the same lines of such an evil bastard.

we have to remember there are extremists on all sides and not tar every culture with the same brush

as for our armed forces ive got nothing but respect for the job they do. can guarntee the majority of people on these forums would not do it. oh and before anyone throws that back at me i applied for the RAF when i was 16 but failed my medical id have signed up in a heartbeat it was the career i always wanted. my friends brother was killed in afghanistan just before christmas you go tell her and her family and see the pain and pride in there eyes your thoughts about our armed forces.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

That is the only reasonable answer to the "points" you pulled right out of your arsecrack, yes.

Care to back up your wild claims with any FACTS?

 

[Scouse]

You DENY that muslims practice sharia law? You DENY that honour killings in that culture is a problem? You argue that is a BETTER situation, in England, than before mass muslim immigration?

AIDS

An estimated 47,000 (43,900-50,400) heterosexuals were living with HIV, of whom 19,300 (17,70021,100) were African-born women and 9,900 (8,800-11,300) were African-born men. One in three heterosexuals living with HIV were born in the UK or countries other than Africa (8,800 [8,100-9,700] women and 8,900 [8,000-10,300] men).

You need to pull your stick out of your ass and start looking at the realities of things.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

No, you need to pull out facts to random claims like "immigration causes increase in crime."

I'm not denying SOME Muslims practice Sharia law - but they do so in their own circle. They haven't brought it in to replace our culture, which is what you and Job are suggesting they are doing.

 

[Chilly]

fuck sake, I was trying to troll with style and it turns into a massive racism and aids fest

 

[Scouse]

No, you need to pull out facts to random claims like "immigration causes increase in crime."

It does. Because of the way we have our system set up and because of the way humans are.

I'm not saying "immigrants are criminals". I'm saying immigration causes increases in crime. They get lumped in together and a lot lack the education or skills and turn to crime. Immigration is the cause of crime where it wasn't previously. FACT.

There's a big difference.

I'm not denying SOME Muslims practice Sharia law - but they do so in their own circle.

In England. Which, before immigration, didn't have sharia courts and honour killing problems.

FACT.

They haven't brought it in to replace our culture, which is what you and Job are suggesting they are doing.

I'm not suggesting that AT ALL. I'm saying that sharia law, honour killings etc, are a natural consequence of immigration.


I'm not anti-immigration. I'm pro-realism. Alongside the positive benefits of immigration come a host of real problems.

fuck sake, I was trying to troll with style and it turns into a massive racism and aids fest

Only the dumb think that factual discussion is racism. The AIDS facts are from the Health Protection Agency's report on AIDS in Britain - and show that AIDS amongst heterosexuals is at least two-thirds from immigration.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

So your proof is you going "FACT"

How reputable.

 

[Scouse]

Piss off Waz. I've given you government figures on AIDS which show what I said was factually correct. You yourself admit that Sharia Law and Honour killings are a factor with muslim imigration (honour killings being a unique new crime for the UK due to immigration, eh?) and you yourself admit that immigrants end up in shit jobs on low incomes - and with that comes high crime.

MWAAAAAH!!!! that nasty man has blown my stick-up-my-arse ideals out of the water with solid factual argument, that I either admit is correct or he's got official government figures to back his argument up with, MWAAAAHH!!!

 

[DaGaffer]

I guess he feels that other cultures coming into Britain, where women are supposed to be treated equally, crime is low etc. is making a mockery of it.

OK, so there are two falsehoods right there. Don't confuse the myth of bucolic England where we all speak in west country accents and doff our forelocks to the Squire with reality; women aren't treated equally and that has nothing to do with immigrants, and low crime hasn't been a reality in Britain, well...ever. Given your politics I'm surprised at you; wealth inequality is a far bigger contributor to crime than race.

It could be racism, or it could be an acknowledgement that immigrants bring crime, disease and wife-beating with them.

All things that were already here, ready and waiting. The types of crime, the types of disease, the types of spousal abuse, may differ in form amongst immigrants but its ludicrous to suggest immigration is a particular cause of those things.

Each one of those things is true. Higher levels of crime comes hand in hand with immigration. One of the main propagators of AIDS (and other diseases) is immigration. Mass muslim immigration has brought with it honour killings and sharia law.

Higher levels of crime comes hand in hand with poor people in over-crowded conditions, not immigration per se. AIDS, yeah maybe (but its actually a relatively minor problem compared to say, heart disease amongst chronically obese white people), but honour killings is an interesting one. It actually doesn't happen very often, and you know what? Our culture, says "no fuck that, you'll be arrested and tried for murder" (and we'll make it illegal to have forced marriages while we're at it). Of course alien cultures bring alien rules, but never yet have those alien rules superceded our own, except in the mind of Paul Dacre. Sharia is a red herring. Jews have had similar religous "laws" for centuries (Halakha), but they haven't ever overridden the law of the land.

I agree. Immigrants have added much to Britain - but they've also taken away from it.

What have they taken away? Specifically?

What you're describing there is a wiping out of "English" culture by immigration.

Nonsense. Just absolute rubbish. I bet people were saying exactly the same thing about the Irish coming to Britain a 100 years ago. Now 1 in 10 of us has an Irish ancestor and are we any less British for it? Of course not.

I.E. The very thing that Job is moaning about you acknowledge as true, and the very thing that Anders went on his rampage about is true.

2+2=3467.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

The LOL meme just doesn't go far enough.

 

[Chosen]

The LOL meme just doesn't go far enough.

I wonder why you can't discuss subjects on a mature level without having to keep on trolling the threads? You have some kinda "thing" for trying to provoke people instead of giving something relevant to the topic?

 

[Scouse]

Higher levels of crime comes hand in hand with poor people in over-crowded conditions, not immigration per se

Agree. However, immigration is a massively exacerbating problem because of that fact.

AIDS, yeah maybe (but its actually a relatively minor problem compared to say, heart disease amongst chronically obese white people)

Why restrict that to "white" people? Chronically obese humans - we all live in Britain and are subject to similar stresses. The asian community in particular has a big big problem with this (amongst other diseases).

Therefore immigration=measurable increase.

Of course alien cultures bring alien rules, but never yet have those alien rules superceded our own

Tell that to animal welfare activists. I've made my opinions on Halal known.

Sharia is a red herring

Only experience tells me otherwise here (no hard facts) - but it was a big issue when I was living in Bradford. Bypass of the normal legal system and brand-new crimes against women isn't a red herring IMO - regardless of the levels.

What have they taken away? Specifically?

I feel you're misconstruing the context here. The point I was making was this:

Immigrants have added much to Britain - but they've also taken away from it.

There are positive elements to immigration (adding) but there are also negatives (taking away).

The discussion above is about the negatives. Count them as specifics if you like.


Immigration is not a bed of roses. I'm not anti-immigration. However, I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's all sweetness and light when it simply ISN'T.