About War Euro servers

[Septina]

Raven.
U say there will be a large population of EU people playing on us on warhammer,fair enough but u know if any of the german or french people will ?
The only servers i reckon GOA didnt take good care of was camlann and the dyvet cluster(Incompetent not to be able to cluster a cluster yes)
But from what ive seen its pretty much only the EU players from dyvet that spams freddyshouse that wont play WH on EU the german kids prolly will,the frenchie kids and people prolly will stick with EU as they don't have xperienced the same as the dyvet people.

Im not even gonne play WH,There will only be one game that gives me the joy of playing much and that is Dark Age of Cameltoe forever!

WHAT!?!?! ONLY EU PLAYERS SPAM THE OFFICIAL EU BOARDS?!?!?!? NERF!!111
Might have something to do with that the german and french servers have their own board?! >;|

 

[Castus]

The real shame is theres no need to let it die except to please the bank manager with a new cash cow. DAOC has so much still to give if given the resource.Friends i have shown DAOC to even this year still have been blown away by it and can`t believe they`ve never heard/seen it before.

 

[Raven]

Most of the WoW'ers i speak to think it sounds amazing, word is spreading not to trust GOA too

 

[Raven]

Raven.
U say there will be a large population of EU people playing on us on warhammer,fair enough but u know if any of the german or french people will ?

You have hit the nail on the head, GOA didnt rip the guts out of the French/German servers like they did with the UK servers.

 

[Gahn]

stuff..

Pretty pathetic imo that u still have faith in a company that showed you how bad things get managed, just cause they tell you "we'll do better".
Shrugs at your lack of cristicism spirit.
Who gives a fuck? You'll play EU, we gonna play US, we can be all happy about it.
Am gonna come here and laugh out loud in your face at the first fuckup Goa does in managing War EU, and judging from what i hear from friends playing EU Beta, it'll be soon enough.

 

[megadave]

Frankly I dont believe GOA when they say they're going to give a better service than in DAOC because they've lied to us so many times before. They can go fuck themselves

 

[PewPewDeagle.45]

*Hii*..........*iiick*


Urhlmll...


I agree with everyone!

 

[scorge]

and judging from what i hear from friends playing EU Beta, it'll be soon enough.

yes but its beta, things will change or so you are told..

what fuck ups in beta?

TBH i think EA and GW will change European hosting companies if GOA fuck up. GOA know that if they fuck up this one, thats them dead, no one will touch them again for any MMORPG.

Still though, they haven't changed all the Flash on the EU homepage as people thought it was too flash intensive. Boats out on that one at the moment. It could be the mother of all fuck ups, then again you never know GOA might of learnt something from DAOC....

 

[Sollac]

dunno if you have seen them or its been mentioned before, but WoW has hit the TV's with advertising...Using MR T and William Shatner....

Clever move and definately aimed at the more adult market.

Thing is EA need to get camelot for UK/eu sorted before they advertise or it will remain dormant.

If they offer an incentive i may go back but ......even with low pop ill probably still get killed

sidi raid anyone??

 

[Gahn]

yes but its beta, things will change or so you are told..

what fuck ups in beta?

TBH i think EA and GW will change European hosting companies if GOA fuck up. GOA know that if they fuck up this one, thats them dead, no one will touch them again for any MMORPG.

Still though, they haven't changed all the Flash on the EU homepage as people thought it was too flash intensive. Boats out on that one at the moment. It could be the mother of all fuck ups, then again you never know GOA might of learnt something from DAOC....

It's not the state of the game, which is obviosuly in Beta. It's the managements, facilities and tools that says it's all the same as it was before.

 

[Esselinithia]

It's not the state of the game, which is obviosuly in Beta. It's the managements, facilities and tools that says it's all the same as it was before.

The difference isn't only in there. While many says: EA and GW are big and powerful, and think GOA is small. GOA is France Telecom, you can guess how small it is. They aren't only involved in MMORPG scene, but they "support gamers" of various kinds in many ways. From their casual games portal, to their presence at CS tournaments. Why? Because more gamers: more people who buy DSL.

If OT had bad routing to other ISPs? More players are forced to buy their DSL from France Telecom. We curse about it, but in france and some countries the message is clear: If you don't want lag, buy your line from them. You see how different the picture is?

For EA, Mythic, and GW: Warhammer Online is a big and super important project. For France Telecom? Doubt so. They want it localized, run on their network, and pay some sum for it. Why? Because even if it operates at a loss: They can make money on DSL lines sold. Gamers will want a good DSL line to play this, or other games, sign up for years, and FT wins.

Some says: if they screw up, EA or Mythic would look for a replacement. Somehow I doubt that. We assume the game will be a success, but heard such assumptions before SWG, DDO, LOTRO to name a few big dissapointments. We don't know how good / bad the game will be. And as you see american and european players often want different values: A scenario where it is a success in one place and a botched product in other place is possible.

We often assume, that german and french servers work better because they get better support. English servers died BOTH because GOA and because of the community. Maybe they have better community? Or for the people who don't want to speak english, there are fewer competiting products available in french / german, so it is easier to maintain population count? Or maybe since they are started at lower population count, and since GOA can't cluster and english speaking players move to these clusters? Or because some people who are realy unhappy with the recent patches come to GOA servers to avoid them? Or because they started later, so they used up a bit less from their life cycle, and just before the rapid descent?

Do you know how it worked in EU, for DAOC? Or we can just assume which reasons were important. And when we speak about community: Do you know who was responsible? Or you just point to someone who had different playing style compared to you, without trying to judge how bad effect you had on the community?

You think that major competitors like Blizzard can't or won't screw up as well? Most people don't want to play the game elsewhere, so if other games are actually bad, they will stick with GOA, and won't move much.

Yes: Support is better on Mythic servers. But action in our peak time is lower.

But unlike France Telecom (or Blizzard, EA, etc) are a relatively small company, with a relatively small userbase, and they can care for most of the community. Even if they make the game trivial, etc. and kill all the challenges because they listen to players, and kill the game as a result, their size, and the size of the customet base is good enough to give them the chance to act this way.

But how will Mythic work when instead of afew thousand players and a small (easy to organize support staff) and a few key figures in playerbase (known to them already, and friends of multiple devs already) they have to deal with millions of people? Who can safely say: Mythic will be up for that job too?

On the other hand: who can say, they won't have ENOUGH action in our peak hours? We can't know that for sure.

GOA can get bad reviews, it will hurt them.
We were customers of GOA at one period of time, and as a customer it is our right to say: We won't give them any money after this or that. Not even a cent. And such decisions (and don't going back to a store that is bad, etc) are normal, and some will avoid GOA servers for them. Some say: France Telecom is big and they won't change much for this. Some can say: Their new stories aren't based up with facts and they lied before.

All are valid reasons to avoid EU servers.
But none of them are enough to say, EU servers in WAR are doomed.

 

[prodical]

well i think that you are going to regret not playing on the american severs. i have played daoc on the usa severs and i have found the americans to be quiet nice, friendly and more than willing to help out. unlike alot of the europeans i have encounted in daoc goa severs.

also its not hard to update to the usa severs. i would assume that it will just involve the changing on the update files and off you go. also with regards updating and so forth i think you will receive a much better service from mythic usa as opposed goa. i know that mythic usa havent been so forth comming with patchs and files too goa which dosent help for patching and general maintenance.

finally i think that when the game starts to die the usa will be the better option. for one simple reason: the usa severs will get clustered alot easier than the european severs. in europe they will ship five or six versions of the game....english, german, french, spanish, dutch etc it is i would think likly that they wont be able to cluster these severs unless they have really done there home work before they launch the game and consider how to cluster different language based severs.

my breif thought anyways in reply to the main poster.



also i have talked to afew people who have played warhammer and im afriad there will be alot of disappointed players with the end product. for those of you who are hardcore daoc players....rvr people...and i dont mean zergsurfing... you will pack the game in withing four to six months. thats just what i have gathered from some pretty reliable sources.

 

[Esselinithia]

also i have talked to afew people who have played warhammer and im afriad there will be alot of disappointed players with the end product. for those of you who are hardcore daoc players....rvr people...and i dont mean zergsurfing... you will pack the game in withing four to six months. thats just what i have gathered from some pretty reliable sources.

To my best knowledge openly discussing what is seen in the game on beta realms is something you shouldn't do at this time, so somehow I am surprised to hear such comments.

BUT(!) in my experience:

Lincensed products (DDO, SWG, LOTRO to name a few) have a tendency to be a huge dissapointment. The worlds, systems, etc. they use aren't designed with MMORPGs in mind. So you might end up with a game: That is far from the original to make it playable as MMORPG, yet have serious issues, where they remained close to the original.

D&D Online is one great example of this problem: it can't be turn based, you can't have most of the freedom you used to have in D&D, yet low CC durations make many players unhappy.

Please try to name a few such licensed products where you don't see problems with this.

Decline of DAOC isn't started with TOA, it started with the conditions that asked for TOA: The game wasn't fun for PVE fans, due lack of PVE content. So far, Mythic made a decent RVR systems, but to maintain a balance between importance of PVP and PVE wasn't working for them. So at first PVE haters left becuase of "more PVE", next other people left, since they made PVE trivial, and devoid of challenge, goals or fun.

To make sure that not only a few people (first batch of players) will enjoy the game, you often have to give fresh start to people. This is why level cap in wow, and a few other games, changes with new expansions: Once in a while you start "even", with equal changes. RvR people who are attracted by the systems from Mythic don't like this. Don't like making new templates, working to get a new spec, etc.

With warhammer online, they will face many different kinds of players. From daoc fans, to warhammer fans, to people who come from wow to see the new bright star in world of MMORPGs. How to balance their needs?

How will RVR work? For some of us: RvR is realm vs realm war, with armies, sieges. For some it is the fg scene, for others it is iRvR, for others it is soloing. Mythic planned RvR as a community tool, instead of starting rivalries and competition and elitism that kills the community on many servers. If you have shared (PVE) goals such problems are not as apparent, yet they are visible, with playing RVR as endgame, such problems are more pronounced.

If I see it well, RvR once helped the community, but lately it kills it, and RvR fans demanded changes that essentially killed the game. If Mythic reached this point with their RvR system once, and so far all their ideas made the problems worse, who can say, the new RVR system in Warhammer online will solve the problem? And if it will solve the problem, I am not sure if it would be familiar enough to DAOC RVR to make most of the DAOC crowd happy to attend.

Hype: We all want a lot from WAR, want to see it as the wow killer game and all. BUT probably it won't achieve everything, so there will be a lot of players who will be disappointed, tell people about this, the intial community might shrink quickly. It is bad enough, but both GOA and Mythic shown, they can't do much with this problem, so far Mythic didn't make a huge botch like dyvet, but clustering isn't a long term solution.

As you see Hype will lead to disappointed players, that will lead to players leaving, that will leave to bad comments, bad "advertisement", and it is a scenario neither Mythic nor GOA handles well.

While most say: Most players in EU won't know about the story of Dyvet. I think most ex daoc players will share their knowledge with their fellow players, others will find oldthreads about similar players, so GOA might see an exodus starting to other servers started by smaller problems.

Reviews are another concern, if you have ever wrote articles in a gaming magazine, you know it is more than just playing the game, since the readers don't want your biased oppinion, they want some fair review, you should be neutral, ask around, judge things fairly. When writting a review one should be loyal to the readers, and know they buy games because they want to have fun.

While games should be judged independently (past history of the developer shouldn't give an advantage), fairly, and objectively, there is an interesting middle ground: how to judge the company policy, staff, etc. which is present for the new game, when they pose significant risk to players experience. The smallest sign of problems staying, and no visible change in overal company policy (which should be visible in daoc as well) is a good enough reason to greet the game with a not so good review.

 

[Conway]

While most say: Most players in EU won't know about the story of Dyvet. I think most ex daoc players will share their knowledge with their fellow players, others will find oldthreads about similar players, so GOA might see an exodus starting to other servers started by smaller problems.

I think a relatively small number of ex DAOC players actually have a large enough chip on their shoulder to go round telling fellow players about it in a new game. Most ex DAOC people either never cared that much or have got over things by now. When they are in a new game most will be more interested in having fun playing it.

Those who are still deeply emotionally involved do not all blame everything on GOA. Those who genuinely blame GOA for everything and have any sort of logic and consistency about them should not be playing WAR or will be playing it on the US servers. They will therefore not be sharing stories with people on the EU servers. If they are airing grievances about DAOC on a forum for a WAR server they are not actually playing then they may well come across as being a bit obsessive.

And in honesty, if someone doesn't know all about DAOC and the back history already then its going to take an awful long time to explain. Long before they manage to communicate their grievance, the person listening is probably going to make an excuse and leave because they are more interested in playing their current game than listening to some fruit loop whining on about what happened in one they don't know.

 

[Esselinithia]

Conway: I think your assumptions have some ground, but doesn't match my experience. Why? First of all: when friends in WoW ask, why my whole guild left daoc (that was the reason to follow them to try wow), and I tell them the dyvet crash, it tends to be interesting to follow. Some of them are interested in WoW, but after hearing about prydwen crash and checking about it...

In 93, I wrote my first articles in a gamer magazine, then I had a regular column (about programing) in one, and wrote a few reviews if there was something interesting. I no longer work in that industry, but still have friends who make reviews, and when we speak about neutral and objective reviews, "past performance" of companies and company policies are a topic that can lead to disputes often. Also titles in a series, hype, etc. can be interesting.

Why? Because you want to tell your readers which game will be good, and which will bring more frustration than fun on the long run, and which ones will be a disappointment, because you waited for a game with different values. How to rate a game that is GOOD but would be a disappointment for most people who waited for it?

If you dispute such topics, you can guess: GOA is one of the frequent examples, and some other MMORPGs can be other examples. They look at war now, look at the staff, look at the company policies, etc. And some also checks daoc. As you see GOA got some criticims in english magazines too (don't know how significant), and I think if GOA gets mentioned it might get criticised in other european portals, magazines as well. Why? Because it can be used as an example in such discussions.

Lots of people want to play WAR or at least test it. On various forums, chat rooms, and in "in game chat", they are interested in hearing oppinions, talk about it. You can guess: Sometimes I don't have to mention GOA, someone else does. You can guess the result.

I don't have to go out of my way to speak about GOA, I just have to follow the conversation, and in such cases many people can hear about it

Warhammer will be released, as you can see, no game can make everyone happy, the momement you see some ex daoc player is unhappy with service, you will see the "it is GOA again" messages, and possible talk about it...

 

[Downanael]

, LOTRO to name a few big dissapointments.

Um how is Lotro dissapointment? Seems to be running pretty strong for what i have seen this far,thought it's hard to say when they dont release the playerbase numbers

OT: Sorry for derail

 

[Esselinithia]

Downanael: Count the servers, and their capacity, LOTRO is a relatively small game. While the hype would mean, it would be in top 5 biggest games, it is nowhere near. The fluctuation in playerbase is huge, since it is still advertised and have a good world behind it, and a good brand, they have some new players, but I know LOTS of people who already left it. Some because the PVP system (lacked some stuff), some because it isn't that close to Middle Earth, some because promised features doesn't work as good as planned...

Yes, the music system looks bright: When you don't try to play music and experience lag (and limits)
Yes, PvMP looks promising for people who want quick PVP, but the PVP system lacks options, and even wow PVP offered more fun at time of release.
Yes, Middle Earth is a nice place, but they didn't use the world design made by Tolkien
Yes, they try to follow a story, but if you start in the Shire, you will see some quests state there was no work done in an orchard, after Sackville Baggins got the place and fired someone (they are celebrating), yet most of the other quests are in the era presented in Lord of the Rings, such smaller or bigger problem breaks the immersion.
Tolkien made many names, languages, and also detailed info about many creatures, trees, flowers, herbs, etc. most of this didn't make their way to the game

So very good ideas and bad implementation.

Also: Tolkien made some work about geography of Middle Earth, and the zones doesn't follow this closely, and with this: I can say, for people who love the world, it isn't that close and a disappointment.

For people who want a good MMORPG, and doesn't care much about the world there are far better options.

For people who doesn't care much, but happy with any products under a good name, it is a good short time entertainment.

 

[Conway]

Conway: I think your assumptions have some ground, but doesn't match my experience. Why? First of all: when friends in WoW ask, why my whole guild left daoc (that was the reason to follow them to try wow), and I tell them the dyvet crash, it tends to be interesting to follow. Some of them are interested in WoW, but after hearing about prydwen crash and checking about it...

In 93, I wrote my first articles in a gamer magazine, then I had a regular column (about programing) in one, and wrote a few reviews if there was something interesting. I no longer work in that industry, but still have friends who make reviews, and when we speak about neutral and objective reviews, "past performance" of companies and company policies are a topic that can lead to disputes often. Also titles in a series, hype, etc. can be interesting.

Why? Because you want to tell your readers which game will be good, and which will bring more frustration than fun on the long run, and which ones will be a disappointment, because you waited for a game with different values. How to rate a game that is GOOD but would be a disappointment for most people who waited for it?

If you dispute such topics, you can guess: GOA is one of the frequent examples, and some other MMORPGs can be other examples. They look at war now, look at the staff, look at the company policies, etc. And some also checks daoc. As you see GOA got some criticims in english magazines too (don't know how significant), and I think if GOA gets mentioned it might get criticised in other european portals, magazines as well. Why? Because it can be used as an example in such discussions.

Lots of people want to play WAR or at least test it. On various forums, chat rooms, and in "in game chat", they are interested in hearing oppinions, talk about it. You can guess: Sometimes I don't have to mention GOA, someone else does. You can guess the result.

I don't have to go out of my way to speak about GOA, I just have to follow the conversation, and in such cases many people can hear about it

Warhammer will be released, as you can see, no game can make everyone happy, the momement you see some ex daoc player is unhappy with service, you will see the "it is GOA again" messages, and possible talk about it...

Tell people about the database corruption and how people lost their equipment and you might get listened to. That is pretty straightforward and a total failure of backup procedures. Mind you, I got my stuff back in a couple of days, and debatable whether GOA or Mythic were most to blame for it happening. I just wish I felt other gaming companies were more reliable on backups, but I don't really.

Get into adding, alarm clocking and code of conduct and I suspect eyes glaze over. Patches arriving later than in the US I never felt was that important, and in some ways was an advantage since the US got to beta test for us and find the nastier bugs.

Since you mention the gaming magazines etc, did anything ever make the press/online web sites? I know someone said he had a journalist interested in all the Prydwen politics ages ago, but I never saw anything come of it. Not that I've been looking, but I assumed there would be huge threads on here about it if there had been anything.

 

[scorge]

Because of the Hype for warhammer online, a lot of people will try it and i think Mythic/EA will break even on the investment from selling CD's alone, its teh subscription that gets them the real money.

Now For War the customer service is based in Ireland, but the servers are located in France. No problem there Customer service could be in bloody India for all the difference it makes. But why move customer services to ireland? cheaper? More English speaking people them moving them all to trance?

DAOC English servers did not have any customer service all we had was rightnow. We Have Gm's but they should be in charge of the game world, not customer queries as well.

What is interesting for me is not how good they game is, but if the customer service has improved, will GOA choose to communicate better with its customers? Thats yet to be seen.

 

[Thorwyn]

Nobody gives a flying fuck about reviews these days. The times of PC games magazines are over. Today, you can read plenty of reviews on different online magazines. There´s no need for "objectivity", people WANT biased opinions. They want independent reviews without the typical suckups.
All the other crap you can get from PC Gamers.
Comon, this is 2007. People are awake and thinking. The big old bugaboo of the oh so mighty "review press" is long gone.

And no, licensed games are not bad because the world doesn´t fit into a game. That´s a load of bollocks. Each and every game system can be converted into realtime games. The reason why licensed games tend to suck is that their gamedesign is flawded. LOTRO doesn´t suck because middle earth isn´t as detailed as Tolkien describes. That´s only the case for some super nerds .. pardon me: the purists.
LOTRO sucks because the game is crap. A WAY too complex crafting system, basically no solo content, an excuse for a missing PvP, strictly focused on quests.. THAT`s why LOTRO sucks. Has nothing to do with the licence or the world.

 

[Downanael]

LOTRO sucks because the game is crap. A WAY too complex crafting system, basically no solo content, an excuse for a missing PvP, strictly focused on quests.. THAT`s why LOTRO sucks. Has nothing to do with the licence or the world.

I agree on the PvP part but you seriously are way off on the rest,you really want to grind mobs rather than do quests and atleast have some reason for it?

 

[partyanimal]

LOTRO sucks because the game is NOT WORTH playin. A WAY too complex crafting system, basically no solo content, an excuse for a missing PvP, strictly focused on quests.. THAT`s why LOTRO sucks. Has nothing to do with the licence or the world.

lotro has very little content as whole, altho there r loads of quests.
but generally wot thorwyn said

 

[Thorwyn]

I agree on the PvP part but you seriously are way off on the rest,you really want to grind mobs rather than do quests and atleast have some reason for it?

Do you really want to solve quest like "I´m hungry, bring me eggs and onion" or walk around in the town searching this one goddamn NPC you have to talk to and who is supposed to be "slightly northwest of the old fountain"? SOme quests are well desined, yes. But there´s a plethora of crappy generic quests, badly described and with long, useless travelling.

I don´t say grinding is the only way to go. But at least, I want to have the choice. As it is, killing mobs is good for nothing, you HAVE to do quests. My old dictum still stands: if a game dictates how I´m supposed to play it, there´s something wrong.

 

[Downanael]

I don´t say grinding is the only way to go. But at least, I want to have the choice. As it is, killing mobs is good for nothing, you HAVE to do quests. My old dictum still stands: if a game dictates how I´m supposed to play it, there´s something wrong.

Reminds me from old daoc days when quests gave really really crap xp and grinding was the only way to go,oh the good old times

 

[Esselinithia]

Conway: Database corruption.
Enforcing nonexistent rules.
Ignoring common griefing related problems.
Bad support response time.

They undestand these, no need to speak about AC raiding, and that was a "small issue" from GOA, and big issue from the community. That was the "I will get my victory today, even if I kill he game for everyone else" attitude of players, which was present from many groups.

Thorwyn[B&Q]: you are wrong at many parts of your oppinion. If people wouldn't want reviews, they wouldn't buy magazines, wouldn't visit their portals and read them. The existence of these magazines and the profits they make is more important than your oppinion.

And about LOTRO: They have many new ideas, but poorly executed. Making a game mostly story based - even to the point where you can only level up if you complette certain storyline quests - is a valid option. BUT if you make your game story based jumping around in time, adding "more and more" unrelated side quests, forget how the characterswould make decision, etc. the poor execution can kill the game, and LOTRO questing is problematic for this reason.

 

[Thorwyn]

If people wouldn't want reviews, they wouldn't buy magazines, wouldn't visit their portals and read them. The existence of these magazines and the profits they make is more important than your oppinion.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Apparently not, otherwise you wouldn´t come up with even more bullshit. Where did I say that people don´t want reviews?

Again: there are WAY more review sources to chose from. People are not bound to ONE magazine and believe everything that´s written in this one magazine. Today, gamers are visiting multiple sites. Therefor, the impact of reviews isn´t that huge anymore, simply because it´s not a monolopy situation anymore. Which is also a reason why the so called "hype" isn´t working as it used to work in the past. Hype, even in the extreme forms, is no defence against poor sales figures. Daikatana, Black and White, Assassins Creed, Hellgate London... all of which were hyped into the sky and all of them flopped pretty badly.

 

[Esselinithia]

Bad news can spread quickly. Even ONE review with verifiable stories are enough. Why? Because blogs link to them, comment on them spread the word, etc. so a bad review from a such magazine can spread even more quickly.

 

[Downanael]

A. Making a game mostly story based - even to the point where you can only level up if you complette certain storyline quests - is a valid option.

This is becoming a Lotro thread soon but i just have to ask,did you ever even play Lotro? you can get to 50 by not caring about the storyline quests at all.

 

[Esselinithia]

Downanael: If you read it carefully, I said: NO problem with Quest/story based games (they can go to a more extreme approach than lotro) but being quest/story based and breaking quest lines because you failed to think is an issue.

Named some quests from lotro.
Being able to ignore the epic quests isn't a benefit in a story based game where you are expected to do it, if you couldn't have other ways to level that would be bad.
BUT breaking quest lines with unneeded side treks, unwanted jumps in time, broken story lines, breakingthe flow of the story by making sure the Players have to do a lot more stuff IS game killer.

And said LOTRO is bad. What do you think which part describes lotro: The what could be done if we want a story based game (lotro wants to be one) or the what we seen as a bad problem part? Hint... Look for the 2nd

 

[Mirt]

I really don't believe there will be enough people online in euro times to make US WAR servers worthwhile (if by some miracle I'm wrong I'd consider rolling there - provided there's some way of paying that doesn't involve a credit card).

@ Raven I wouldn't be surprised if Brack or Para make a guild on the Euro servers, and I suspect a lot of other old excal players will roll there too. Hope to see you there ;P