Your thoughts!?

[tris-]

What happens tho is that the end product of the science approach is treated as FACT when it shouldnt. Equally people treat their faith as FACT,

but what about things that are actually factual? when particles are being accelerated into each other and split open, and scientists can SEE what happens. thats a fact right there isnt it?

 

[Olgaline]

But religion is afforded a very special place in society, the religion card is a huge get out of jail free card, it's the biggest card there is and it kicks the race card into touch with its huge power and it it becoming the most played card in the game of life. You can comment on nearly anything but not religion as an atheist I am open to all sorts of scrutiny from various religions and their beliefs, hell most of the main religions would have me put to death already which is fine but dare I say anything back? See anyone publicly criticising Muslims? even the moderate dare not go on camera condemning terrorism due to fear of reprisals, man you cannot even print a cartoon about Mohamed with a religious group taking out ofcontext adding other images (that the got from random of the web) and actively perusing a campaign or propaganda and mis information and causing riots in how many countries? That whole thing was based in bullshit and even so when the truth comes out no one dare mention it. And I am not assuming anything about your beliefs creationisms is Christianity based so that what were are talking about for the most part. (except the Islam example I gave above)

Atheist are on of the most persecuted groups in the US, even given the current climate you are better of being a Muslim in the US than an Atheist.

And as far as other countries go and their right to teach what they like, well creationisms is coming the the UK sand Europe and it is being funded by wealthy Americans so hell yeah I have a right to have an opinion on what the hell they are doing, just like Muslims have a right to be pissed of at their foreign policy right now. I don't want this crap being taught in schools that my children attend I don't want it to spread to public schools keep it the churches. The west is the most un religious part of the planet and I for one would like it to stay that way.

thanks for putting my thoughts into writting, yet again, :worthy:

 

[Mojo]

Equally people treat their faith as FACT, when again they shouldnt - or more correctly, treat it as an objective truth. Both should be treated as "we dont know" and just teach what we do know, rather than having the extremists bore us all to death =)

Ok if you pull up Christians and Muslims on their "FACT" books, depending on who they are where they are and who their audience is depends on what "FACT" you get.

No one is going to condone genocide rape and under-age sex in the UK for example but yet is all sanctioned in the Bible. No Muslim is going to go on TV here and say that all infidels should die women should be stoned (but they dance around denying this also as not to offend the other half) I do not envy the Muslim moderate balancing act tbh.
If you go to north America there are Christian based cults that would love to kill all non believers happily screw the kids in the cult and have many wives there are Muslims that do stone women and would love to see us all dead but yet neither of the good books has been updated or revised bits just seem to get ignored to interpreted differently.

Unlike Religion science is generally consistent religion is totally inconsistent, the religions are incompatible with each other but they pretend to respect each other and all get along, these are huge issue I have with religion.

In Short what I have read, seen and heard on religion makes very little sense to me, no one is making decent convincing arguments but yet I always turn out to be the closed minded ignorant one. I cannot make things make sense to me, I can only extend my ear and allow other to try and they fail time and time again try as I might.

 

[old.Tohtori]

actually thats incorrect, i said it's not plausible, thats not the same. also i think your missing my origional point, if you notice, I never said: dont teach creationism. there's a big difference between teaching creationism, and teaching creationism as a science.

thats a so called "automatic tie" argument so i wont comment on it,

again huh !?

Along the lines(can't be arsed to dig through whole thread), you said "creationism has no truth whatsoever", i based my opinion on that.

I never even commented that you said "Don't teach it", i said, "it's not 100% truth, but it's not 100% bollocks(necessarily) either."

Automatic tie or not, you can see what i mean.

The "don't think i'm christian" thing means, that in most post here, people seem to assume(which is an assumption i know) that anyone saying "creationism isn't necessarily all wrong" must be either A: believers in it or B: christian. If you didn't think that, and it was an accidental thing, then nevermind it.

But r*snip big rant*at way.

Again, seems you're targeting the people who wage war for religion, or fight extremely for religion, which is not the majority of religious people, nor should all religious people be treated by the more "extremist" in our midst.

I don't see much "get out of jail for free for religion" things going on, infact seems these days it's more of a "You're f*cked if you believe" thing.

About teaching it in your schools, to your children, well, you have to also take into consideration those who wish it to be taught.

Home teaching, parent/kid relations should be taken into consideration here. If the government, which people have elected, decides that this should be taught, then it will be. It's up to the parents, at that point, to teach what THEY wish to their kids and not try to ban/outlaw everything THEY think is right for THEIR kids.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Unlike Religion science is generally consistent religion is totally inconsistent, the religions are incompatible with each other but they pretend to respect each other and all get along, these are huge issue I have with religion.

and

but yet I always turn out to be the closed minded ignorant one. I cannot make things make sense to me, I can only extend my ear and allow other to try and they fail time and time again try as I might.

So basically like the calmer, non violent religious people.

You see why people might see you as a bit closeminded? In the same post, you call religion "bollocks" essentially(not literally) and say "i try to listen and look at the bollocks side of things too." Kinda, contradictive.

I'm always open for opinions, but that won't stop me from believing in what i do, as it shouldn't. But if i came here and said "Religion and science are both crock! Great Hippo Kablowie is the only true way!", well, that would get a reaction i believe.

 

[Olgaline]

old.Tohtori tbh mate i thnk we'r discussing on two different levels,
so let me clear things up abit, you and mojo are discussing on a more philisofical lavel, and i'll leave you two to that.

I have no desire to target anyones beliefs, if someone wants to hold f.exp creationism as thier belief then, fine by me, and i do encourage it to be tought within the confinds of theoligy as a thological theory of creation. but as a science ? No!
and that is exactly what they are attempting to do in the usa, and thats what i'm oposing.

 

[old.Tohtori]

old.Tohtori tbh mate i thnk we'r discussing on two different levels,
so let me clear things up abit, you and mojo are discussing on a more philisofical lavel, and i'll leave you two to that.

I have no desire to target anyones beliefs, if someone wants to hold f.exp creationism as thier belief then, fine by me, and i do encourage it to be tought within the confinds of theoligy as a thological theory of creation. but as a science ? No!

And again, never accused you of such. Just was pointing the "seemly" thought of me as a christian, towards other places

I know what you are talking about, and i believe i answered my view on it in the first two posts. You just quoted on me about something i was discussing in this "philosophical" level already, which kinda sucked you into it. A lil mishap i'd say.

 

[Chronictank]

No Muslim is going to go on TV here and say that all infidels should die women should be stoned (but they dance around denying this also as not to offend the other half) I do not envy the Muslim moderate balancing act tbh.

This plain wrong, there is a difference between sharia (sp?) law and islam.
They arent one and the same as often described in the lesser papers,
just as UK law and christianity arent the same

If you go to north America there are Christian based cults that would love to kill all non believers happily screw the kids in the cult and have many wives there are Muslims that do stone women and would love to see us all dead but yet neither of the good books has been updated or revised bits just seem to get ignored to interpreted differently.

Again see above, if it was in the books surely the different faiths wouldnt exist? Everyone would have wiped out the other long ago
Religion has a fundemental flaw, which is the people are subject to the views and interpretations of those they look for guidance, and those people can make mistakes.
In addition the bible has been revised a few times , which i personally disagree with but it has been done be it via translation/interpretation.

Democracy can be used to wage wars, as it has many a time, yet i dont see you shunning it as you are shunning religion as a whole.

Unlike Religion science is generally consistent religion is totally inconsistent, the religions are incompatible with each other but they pretend to respect each other and all get along, these are huge issue I have with religion.

I dont know which religion you are talking about tbh, so cant really comment on this, but i have yet to find a main stream religion which tells people to go kill anyone who isnt following their faith.
However i have seen this happen time and time again when it comes to the way societies are governed

In Short what I have read, seen and heard on religion makes very little sense to me, no one is making decent convincing arguments but yet I always turn out to be the closed minded ignorant one. I cannot make things make sense to me, I can only extend my ear and allow other to try and they fail time and time again try as I might.

Funnily enough in general i get this the other way round, anyone who follows a religion whatever it is gets called ignorant, stupid, etc etc
You have seen it time and time again on these forums alone.

 

[Olgaline]

here's the thing tho'

it's one thing to say that there's some greater being who designed things and or is helping things along, "basicly to say that evolution is by design"

it's a very different story to "as creationism in it's current form" deny that something such as "evolution" has and is taking place. you can discuss the details of how evolution has and is taking place, "was it a big bang? was it aliens, or some devine being ect and so on" but denying it's existence is something all together different.

now from that perspective, if you choose to aknolage evolution, then you cannot at the same time embrace creationism as an ulternative.

 

[Chronictank]

here's the thing tho'

it's one thing to say that there's some greater being who designed things and or is helping things along, "basicly to say that evolution is by design"

it's a very different story to "as creationism in it's current form" deny that something that is prooven "evolution" has and is taking place. you can discuss the details of how evolution has and is taking place, but denying it's existence is something all together different.

now from that perspective, if you choose to aknolage evolution, then you cannot at the same time embrace creationism as an ulternative.

that really depends on which religion you follow, and in which form

 

[old.Tohtori]

Regarding that Olgaline, i had an interesting thought here(completely off topic, but sidetracking the creationism/evolution combo thing).

What if, the supreme race that started humans and such, was seen as god. Let's say a huge f*cking spaceship. That frequented now and then to give "commands" or "rules" for people.

I mean even jesus was said to be "a 1000 times the IQ of a human" and left on a "cloud" with lights under it(sound like a ship eh?).

Now, the supreme beings would seem like angels to us(not corporeal), as some near the higher level and see a glimpse of it.

When people die, we turn into this, corporeal matter if we are "heightened" enough, or simply "poof" into dirt(hell) if they weren't advanced enough.

Rather logical, sorts of, way to explain gods, souls, angels and such

 

[Jeremiah]

but what about things that are actually factual? when particles are being accelerated into each other and split open, and scientists can SEE what happens. thats a fact right there isnt it?

I meant scientific theories are treated as fact when they arent. When you have something that can be recreated, such as the example you gave, then yes that is fact and should be taught as such =)

And Mojo:

I dont think you are closed minded, you have the right approach. Although you need to expand your mind a little =) To say science is quite consistent while religion isnt is looking at it from two different points.

Either look at it from:

Religion says there is a God who (for most faiths) created the world. No matter what else they believe about their God, that part is consistent.

Or

Science is inconsitent because there exist many theories on how the world was created.

Both Science and Religion tend to be consitent at their conclusion, but the premises are inconsistent =)

And I understand if you dont want to read the Bible or Qur'an, but don't believe everything you hear about them. I know for fact that in the Bible, no where is rape or underage sex ordered by God. The Jewish people would have been put to death for such things.

 

[Olgaline]

Regarding that Olgaline, i had an interesting thought here(completely off topic, but sidetracking the creationism/evolution combo thing).

What if, the supreme race that started humans and such, was seen as god. Let's say a huge f*cking spaceship. That frequented now and then to give "commands" or "rules" for people.

I mean even jesus was said to be "a 1000 times the IQ of a human" and left on a "cloud" with lights under it(sound like a ship eh?).

Now, the supreme beings would seem like angels to us(not corporeal), as some near the higher level and see a glimpse of it.

When people die, we turn into this, corporeal matter if we are "heightened" enough, or simply "poof" into dirt(hell) if they weren't advanced enough.

Rather logical, sorts of, way to explain gods, souls, angels and such

hehe yeah, i've had the same line of thought before or rather entertained the thought,

 

[Mojo]

You see why people might see you as a bit closeminded? In the same post, you call religion "bollocks" essentially(not literally) and say "i try to listen and look at the bollocks side of things too." Kinda, contradictive.

Not a contradiction at all, yes religion is bollocks from all I have read, been show and have seen. Come to me with something new and I shall look at it and see if it changes my mind, but in recent years I have new see any new arguments for religion but many more against. So my opinion is being pulled in a certain direction that's not to say it wont swing back to the middle ground of not really caring but it's not looking very likely tbh.

 

[Mojo]

This plain wrong, there is a difference between sharia (sp?) law and islam.
They arent one and the same as often described in the lesser papers,
just as UK law and christianity arent the same

OK, I was under the impression that is some countries they were interpreted very closely to the point that they were one and the same.

Again see above, if it was in the books surely the different faiths wouldnt exist? Everyone would have wiped out the other long ago

No through lack of trying I don't think

Religion has a fundemental flaw, which is the people are subject to the views and interpretations of those they look for guidance, and those people can make mistakes.
In addition the bible has been revised a few times , which i personally disagree with but it has been done be it via translation/interpretation.

These are the sort of things that make it so much harder to take it seriously.

 

[Chronictank]

Not a contradiction at all, yes religion is bollocks from all I have read, been show and have seen. Come to me with something new and I shall look at it and see if it changes my mind, but in recent years I have new see any new arguments for religion but many more against. So my opinion is being pulled in a certain direction that's not to say it wont swing back to the middle ground of not really caring but it's not looking very likely tbh.

But if you have refused to look yourself, even if a little, then how could you possibly be sure you are correct?
It's like me proposing a theory for quantum mechanics without even reading what a contridicting theory is saying

 

[old.Tohtori]

Not a contradiction at all, yes religion is bollocks from all I have read, been show and have seen. Come to me with something new and I shall look at it and see if it changes my mind, but in recent years I have new see any new arguments for religion but many more against. So my opinion is being pulled in a certain direction that's not to say it wont swing back to the middle ground of not really caring but it's not looking very likely tbh.

Not exactly what i meant, i meant the contradiction comes from you telling people, in same sentence that "Oh yes, i listen to other peoples opinions and try to learn on the matter, even if their side is bollocks."

That, to me atleast, sounds closeminded and rather..well...hypocritical to be honest. No big offense to be taken, just that it's hardly right to say "I respect other beliefs even if they are dumb."

 

[Mojo]

What if, the supreme race that started humans and such, was seen as god. Let's say a huge f*cking spaceship. That frequented now and then to give "commands" or "rules" for people.

I mean even jesus was said to be "a 1000 times the IQ of a human" and left on a "cloud" with lights under it(sound like a ship eh?).

Now, the supreme beings would seem like angels to us(not corporeal), as some near the higher level and see a glimpse of it.

When people die, we turn into this, corporeal matter if we are "heightened" enough, or simply "poof" into dirt(hell) if they weren't advanced enough.

Rather logical, sorts of, way to explain gods, souls, angels and such

I would buy that before I bought into "God", I would still need proof though so it's not likely.

 

[Mojo]

That, to me atleast, sounds closeminded and rather..well...hypocritical to be honest. No big offense to be taken, just that it's hardly right to say "I respect other beliefs even if they are dumb."

OK look at it like this then.

I had an open mind and I listened to all the arguments. In the last few years I have not seen anything new in the pro god argument to expand my ideas on, I can therefore conclude that I have run out of information to digest in the pro god debate so I can therefore make my final conclusion (which i have done)

My conclusion, it's bollocks.

When new evidence is presented I shall review it and assess it like I did all the other evidence and arguments, in this regard my mind is open.

Until then I will continue to counter argue

Just because it appears that I have a closed mind it doesn't make it so, there is little in this thread I have not seen before, the only things I feel that I need to review is my understanding of Sharia law in relation to Islam as it's been suggested I off on that one and I quite probably am.

 

[Mojo]

But if you have refused to look yourself, even if a little, then how could you possibly be sure you are correct?
It's like me proposing a theory for quantum mechanics without even reading what a contridicting theory is saying

(That comes under the "Have Seen")

I went to church and Sunday school with some friends of my mums I had a lot religious friends some Muslim some Christian and some Jew and did stuff with them and their circle of friends, holidays etc, did the Cub scout thing (based in churches/schools with Christian learning) hell I hung out with some kids who went to a baptist church so spent some time there too. I guess 1 advantage of not being tied to a single religion is that you can go where the hell you like with who you like. That probably better places me than most I guess.

 

[Gorbachioo]

According to Penn and Teller there are 2 versions in the bible about creationism. I have not read the bible so can anyone confirm this? ;o


As for religion in general, I'll say this once again.

You're right, the existance of a higher being cannot be proven wrong. But then, you cant prove that im not god. You just have no reason to believe that. Just like you have no reason to believe that there is a higher being who created earth even though its possible.


So if you wouldnt respect the idea that I am god, why should i respect your belief that there is a god? Afterall, theres no evidence for either one of these theories.

Maybe there is a god, but until someone can prove it, its as true as santa claus.

 

[Olgaline]

you mean santa isnt real!!!??

waaaaaah!!!!

your a meanie!

 

[Gorbachioo]

mih... frigging edit timer

I'll rephrase that.

Maybe there is a god, but until someone proves it, its just another theory of how the world came to be and should not be considered as fact.

 

[Olgaline]

I like you again,
your point is very much valid tho, wont go into if i do or dont agree with it, but that dosent change it's validation

 

[old.Tohtori]

OK look *snip*e probably am.

Yes, but you're talking about a whole different thing now.

Now you're talking about your current way of thinking, that religion is bollocks and that it offers nothing new to you.

Whereas, i referred to the hypocritical way you stated that other peoples opinions are ok even if they are crap.

Choose one, don't try to be on both camps. In other words, either say "Religion is bollocks" or "Religion isn't bollocks, it's just not for me", but don't try to act "understanding" while telling that religion is bollocks.

If you know what i mean here.

I get what you want to say, but i'm trying to point out what you said and shouldn't say in the future, as it sounds as i said.

Maybe there is a god, but until someone proves it, its just another theory of how the world came to be and should not be considered as fact.

That is as you wish, and as such, you can believe it, but don't judge others for believing that to them god/whatnot IS fact.

Some christians, many actually, have stated they've seen god. If they wish to believe this and possibly they HAVE(without mental illness even) seen "god", then let them.

About you being god by the way, then it could be asked to be proven by you that you are. Which is back to the whole yada yada....you know.

 

[Ctuchik]

But one can't, by any means, say that it's a 100% certain that there was NO higher being/creature who pushed evolution in a certain direction.

no but the evidence of it ever existing is alot less then what the scientists have figured out with evolution...

i mean, all the "evidence" the christians have is the bible.

the rest of the world atleast have SOME facts to prove their case with evolution theories

 

[Mojo]

Choose one, don't try to be on both camps. In other words, either say "Religion is bollocks" or "Religion isn't bollocks, it's just not for me", but don't try to act "understanding" while telling that religion is bollocks.

What the hell are you on about? Try and be more clear that make no sense.

Thinking religion is bollocks has no relation to understanding people needs for it.

 

[Chronictank]

mih... frigging edit timer

I'll rephrase that.

Maybe there is a god, but until someone proves it, its just another theory of how the world came to be and should not be considered as fact.

There is "proof", just not enough to convince you.
If you want to discuss it i suggest you read through, and if you have something to add, bump an old thread

 

[old.Tohtori]

What the hell are you on about? Try and be more clear that make no sense.

Thinking religion is bollocks has no relation to understanding people needs for it.

You said, in the same sentence, that "i listen to other peoples opinions and try to understand them" and that "religion is utter bollocks, no way round it until they prove god exists."

Basically.

That is not listening to other people or respecting their beliefs, that is calling it bollocks, but sugarcoating it with "But i understand why you believe your crap."

Kinda like saying, "You're stupid, but i understand why you are stupid."

What you said in your previous post, was a different matter altogether. It states how you feel/felt about the issue and what your conclusion was.

 

[Imgormiel]

You said, in the same sentence, that "i listen to other peoples opinions and try to understand them" and that "religion is utter bollocks, no way round it until they prove god exists."

Basically.

That is not listening to other people or respecting their beliefs, that is calling it bollocks, but sugarcoating it with "But i understand why you believe your crap."

Kinda like saying, "You're stupid, but i understand why you are stupid."

What you said in your previous post, was a different matter altogether. It states how you feel/felt about the issue and what your conclusion was.

I managed to sugarcoat the same crap to a schizophrenic heretic (catholic) who would not believe that any other religion was valid.

'As long as you find god in what ever a text says no matter who it is said by, for and how many choose to believe it. Isn't it that they found god that matter's?'

After considering the above quote the dood seemed to agree with me, although he still stuck to his own religion believing his to be the right and just one that everyone should believe in, the same applies to just about everything else in life.

The main point you guys seemed to have missed is that if you don't challenge something, then there's nothing else left to learn and then we cease to evolve. Scientific theory is constantly being challenged and changed in much the same way that we evolve whether it is mentally or physically.

Recently there was found to be two types of human being cohabiting together as two species of bi-peds in much the same way that gorillas and monkeys occupy two different types of territory and use it in different ways. Previously homo-erectus was thought to be the first and only type of human being other than the neanderthals which were a derivitive on humans as a result of evolution and not species dichotomy. There's alot wrong with Darwinian theory as people each day are finding out, the fact of the matter is, that to apply it in a way that was never meant by Darwin (as he only had a limited set of data to what we have now) and you get a better answer. Thus the American approach seems both right and wrong at the same time