Ye add whine malarkey

[eggy]

Your syntax is stated in the negative and so is hard to follow and therefore prone to misunderstanding. Would it not be better stated as follows:

"messages such as "FUCKING ADDING TW*T, DIE IRL", or "lolol you added all the way to rr6 you fucking lamer" will not help evolution."

Quite right, I've edited my post to avoid confusion

On this I would agree. Such messages are going to get us no-where but are they so offensive from that evolutionary perspective? Not particularly most people ignore them. Now hidden in your post is a semantic that needs to be exposed.

Are all adding comments like this?

Nope, not all. Some are more subtle. But, the amount of shit comments like this I've deleted in the last few days is quite saddening.

 

[Sharkith]

Quite right, I've edited my post to avoid confusion

Nope, not all. Some are more subtle. But, the amount of shit comments like this I've deleted in the last few days is quite saddening.

It is depressing and I share that with you Flim and others I am sure. What might get lost in our discussion is why we think whine exists?

Rather than banning it on sight perhaps we should seek the cause.

You can't assume all forms of communication are equal, even personal abuse is communication and even 'real' (ie. not on-line) communities have rules/laws which limit freedom of speech.

(Some) People want to use being on-line as an excuse to have no respect for usually accepted norms of communication, or think that because the person they are communicating with is removed by distance from them that makes words less hurtful. (So many posts about people getting upset by words, or pixels on a screen). These people are basically bullies, and we don't tolerate bullying irl any more than we should tolerate it on-line.

I think the suggestions in this thread are rather akin to segregation in real life communities which has been shown to only intensify hatred and misunderstanding not to rebuild communities.

I accept that people from a different point of view than mine may feel badly treated by the CoC here, but if those who want to complain about adding communicated their feelings in a less aggressive manner there would be far fewer problems.

Excellent stuff as always Javai but what is equal is not an overarching ideal we can aspire to and then use to our own advantage. Clearly not every communication is equal. Clearly some value being able to say adding comments more than some want to read them.

However what we need to diagnose is the cause of this difference and look for a way to help reduce the vitrol that is being expressed.

Part of the answer we have already seen in the essay thread is to more adequately refine playstyles and develop sets of expectations to try and help stabalise in game assumptions and expectations. The same goes for the forum I would suggest that maybe moderating and rules is not the way to do it that maybe we also need to guide people a bit by saying please your bordering on damaging comments here and if you don't stop I will have to lock it and so on.

Ebeneezer has said over in the essay thread that seperation of communities is bad, he is totally right it is not a good thing to do. What I would like to challenge is for those internal communities who see themselves as distinct to define themselves better and to start to take some pride in what they do. Do go fruther then and to leave the door open for others to try it out. For example how could the FG people encourage lower RR groups to experience FG action?

It is not nice getting pwned 30 secs after entering agramon and it probably isn't a nice way to introduce the style of play. Could we all hold a low rr night where we all have different toons and start again for one evening - handicapped in relam abilities or something? Why not positively encourage people to come along and have a go? You see once we define it as legitimate and once people are encouraged to identify with it rather than whine about it we can start to open up all sorts of possibilities for the game.

Now my experience of FG RvR has been that it is very open and very friendly. One of my interests is to try and open that up to more people to share it so we can all join in now and then. I would like to also do the solo thing. So rather than looking at the symptom here defined at "vitrollic add whine" I am suggesting we cut to the case sort out the problem and then start developing solutions.

 

[eggy]

Could we all hold a low rr night where we all have different toons and start again for one evening - handicapped in relam abilities or something? Why not positively encourage people to come along and have a go? You see once we define it as legitimate and once people are encouraged to identify with it rather than whine about it we can start to open up all sorts of possibilities for the game.

Yes, sure, it could be organised. But, some people won't know about it, some people won't care, and some people won't want to join in. You can't enforce rules on people for evenings of RVR, that's the whole point - people can play how they like.

If evenings like this were arranged, it would turn into a huge flame fest on FH, threads would be closed, people would be banned, mods would be baited and flamed themselves...nothing new there then.

 

[Saraden]

In threads like this, those who speak for soloing and not adding, are countered as persons who go around using abusive language, and lack the ability to respect everyone's playstyles.

Which is wrong, because soloers (nonadders) are the ones who respect others gamestyle & playing experience most, and on their own expense.

 

[brad]

There is a difference.

I fully respect people's playstyles, ie if they search full group fights and don't add - that's their decision and that's fine.

However, if they come on here and flame people for not agreeing to their style...that's not on.

But when you find solo people and kill them and spam /laugh and /rude for soloing isn't that just saying that you don't agree with their playstyle?

Never remember you lot doing that to people in fg fight, but when it comes to people soloing you do it everytime, so i take it you don't agree with their playstle, as you think it warrants a /rude /laugh everytime you kill them?

I know it's in a different context, but what you say shouldn't be done in regards to fh, you do the exact opposite in game.

 

[eggy]

But when you find solo people and kill them and spam /laugh and /rude for soloing isn't that just saying that you don't agree with their playstyle?

Emotes are there to be used, it is the only form of communication between the realms, aside from /yell. In roleplaying terms, if an enemy comes to a foreign land alone, rather than teaming up with realm mates - and then dies at the hands of the realm defenders - sure, it would be 'funny' (although in a gory and bloodthirsty way), and thus, /laugh is used.

i take it you don't agree with their playstle, as you think it warrants a /rude /laugh everytime you kill them?

No, incorrect. It's not for me or anyone else to "agree" on people's playstyles. If people want to solo - sure! Go ahead! Have a blast! But don't whine when you die to a group and people kill and emote you

In fact, sheering someone and leaving them with a /laugh is quite realistic in roleplaying terms. Shaming an enemy in-game via the given mechanisms and sparing their life isn’t a personal attack – maybe the person sheered should consider coming to war in other realms with a stronger team

If people choose to solo, they should accept the fact they will get steamrolled 95% of the time. You don't see me whining when I get flattened solo on my sorc, for example.

I know it's in a different context, but what you say shouldn't be done in regards to fh, you do the exact opposite in game.

Sorry? I say people shouldn't whine and flame each other for not agreeing to playstyles. Don't think I have ever initiated whine or flame in game, or anyone else for that matter.

 

[illu]

i think whining a bit is fine, need to let out the frustration, but being pissed off hours/weeks later is abit silly

like kthxbye, telling people to die irl days after the actual add happened.

anyway, average day for scout is this:

-see a luri, engage it, 3 more rangers pop in the background
-try crau, see a vampiir, have a good fight, menta x adds and vampiir does a /rude to him after im dead.
-fight a hero, get stun/nuked by some chanter camping crau tower
-fight a ranger, instantly bails to tower, get jumped by more people, ranger sprints back to leech
-try get revenge on menta X, ranger X pops out of stealth and sidestuns me, and does a /hug after
-trying to get to a more quiet area because 1.5 fg hibs just ran over the bridge, ns spots me, ns pops me, i phaseshift and go to the tower to try minimize the rps they get for me, i die, ns /bows to me.
-watch a really good fight between armsman x and blademaster x, bonedancer comes out of the water and nukes both down, try to zephyr/battler to get it down but the healerpets outheal all my damage with ease, let alone the lifetap
-spot a ranger, get grappled and killed by fg hibs inc
-spot a ranger, engage it, 2 more ranger adds who claim they always solo and never add
-spot a ranger, engage it, have a good fight, scout pops in the far distance and says "if you wanna duel go somewhere else"
-hug someone in a fg hibs while they are fighting, bainshee does a cone ae bolt and get exposed, killed and laughed at
-watch and emote with a fg mids and hibs in agramon for a minute, then all of a sudden the hibs kill me
-after a very good fight with a ranger who used ip we're both at 5% hp, menta heals him up to full, ranger backs off the fight and menta finishes me off.

etc

uke:

Hehe sounds like a normal days play to me - it's crap isn't it :> Just get them back when you eventually get to high RR and just kill them over and over again until they learn their lesson to play "fairer" I don't mind dying, but when I am attacking 2-3-4 albs and another arse is shooting me from miles away, they will get their come uppance too.

Oli - Illu

 

[Javai]

For example how could the FG people encourage lower RR groups to experience FG action?

You see here is what I have a gripe with (I know you are using it as an example so it's not a personal gripe just quoting to illustrate).

The underlying assumption is that FG action is a superior form of rvr that everyone should be aspiring to, but those of us branded as 'adders' or 'zergers' or whatever are not necessarily adding or zerging because we can't do fg vs fg rvr or because we are low rr. Many people LIKE zerging and the problem is that the 'fg' crowd want to impose a set of rules that are outside the game rules.

Two analogies that spring to mind:

The Temperance Movement, here you have a society that allows alcohol but a group who think it should not be allowed. Those that wish to ban it will argue you it bad for your health etc etc, those who want to drink alcohol argue that they enjoy it. The laws of the land let them so why should they stop?

Or slightly more tongue in cheek:

Imagine if after 10 years of being in the top few teams in the Premiership Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U have bought up most of the best players have all the best training facilities and then suddenly decide that they want to play the game with only 6 men, and will whine and moan if other teams turn up to their grounds with 11. These clubs have the most press coverage and so people only 'respect' those who try and play them with 6 men but (and just for Bracken) Villa insist that 11 men is how the game is played and refuse to turn up with 6.

(apologies if this has gone off the topic of this threas and into the topic of the other feel free to move it if so).

 

[eggy]

Brilliant post Javai.

 

[brad]

In threads like this, those who speak for soloing and not adding, are countered as persons who go around using abusive language, and lack the ability to respect everyone's playstyles.

Which is wrong, because soloers (nonadders) are the ones who respect others gamestyle & playing experience most, and on their own expense.

Yep i totally agree.

 

[Lethul]

You see here is what I have a gripe with (I know you are using it as an example so it's not a personal gripe just quoting to illustrate).

The underlying assumption is that FG action is a superior form of rvr that everyone should be aspiring to, but those of us branded as 'adders' or 'zergers' or whatever are not necessarily adding or zerging because we can't do fg vs fg rvr or because we are low rr. Many people LIKE zerging and the problem is that the 'fg' crowd want to impose a set of rules that are outside the game rules.

Two analogies that spring to mind:

The Temperance Movement, here you have a society that allows alcohol but a group who think it should not be allowed. Those that wish to ban it will argue you it bad for your health etc etc, those who want to drink alcohol argue that they enjoy it. The laws of the land let them so why should they stop?

Or slightly more tongue in cheek:

Imagine if after 10 years of being in the top few teams in the Premiership Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U have bought up most of the best players have all the best training facilities and then suddenly decide that they want to play the game with only 6 men, and will whine and moan if other teams turn up to their grounds with 11. These clubs have the most press coverage and so people only 'respect' those who try and play them with 6 men but (and just for Bracken) Villa insist that 11 men is how the game is played and refuse to turn up with 6.

(apologies if this has gone off the topic of this threas and into the topic of the other feel free to move it if so).

i dont like fotball

 

[ebenezer]

In threads like this, those who speak for soloing and not adding, are countered as persons who go around using abusive language, and lack the ability to respect everyone's playstyles.

Which is wrong, because soloers (nonadders) are the ones who respect others gamestyle & playing experience most, and on their own expense.

that might be true in some cases..you cant just generalise like that. i solo alot but have never abused someone by cursing at them. On other hand i seen and heard people get abuses all the time by some soloers.I never heard someone who doesnt solo( apart from some fg people i heard abuses from in past) abuse anyone else or tell them how they should play. So..its all individual my friend. An asshole will be an asshole whether he plays solo..zergs..or fg Please stop labeling people cause of the way they play in a game. Its just plane wrong.

over and out..

 

[dajnamajt]

h0h0 just instadelete all add/whine threads :<

 

[Vodkafairy]

Or slightly more tongue in cheek:

Imagine if after 10 years of being in the top few teams in the Premiership Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U have bought up most of the best players have all the best training facilities and then suddenly decide that they want to play the game with only 6 men, and will whine and moan if other teams turn up to their grounds with 11. These clubs have the most press coverage and so people only 'respect' those who try and play them with 6 men but (and just for Bracken) Villa insist that 11 men is how the game is played and refuse to turn up with 6.

or you can compare the team of 6 with the "adders", who are pissed off they get beaten by teams of 11 people and then charge in an on-going match and kick the ball away as far as possible, ruining the match.

i think this issue is beaten beyond death already, there are never going to be generally accepted rules and everyone is always going to be biased, frustrated or hypocritical at times. and most of all: there is always going to be whine.

if a zerg gets killed by another zerg, /bu fills up with whines about OP classes, superiour numbers, etc. if a fg gets added down, the adders are going to get whined at. if a soloer gets zerged down, the zerglings are going to get whined at.

siege warfare is what daoc is all about and theres no such thing as adding in the area of that siege, its just "rvr the way its meant to be". adding on everything around bridges and in an insta-rvr situation is a byproduct of shit NF design. they made room for fg's with agramon, but they didn't for soloers. rphorny people who can't compete 1v1 will always chase those people down, til the day daoc servers are shut down.

just the way it is, no matter how much you talk, people are always going to be eager to grief another player (scum). those who play and genuinely enjoy what they are doing are the heroes of daoc, the ones who do so by showing respect to everyone including their enemies are the gods.

 

[Gamah]

In threads like this, those who speak for soloing and not adding, are countered as persons who go around using abusive language, and lack the ability to respect everyone's playstyles.

Which is wrong, because soloers (nonadders) are the ones who respect others gamestyle & playing experience most, and on their own expense.

Agreed 100%

The Mods, such as Filmgoblin pigeon hole all "non-adders" as "1337 omg j00 add kidz" this is simply not true. However because mods are bias (as is anyone) and this is the brush they have decided to tarnish people with that is what will stick.

I feel the attitude of the mods is just as bad as the people who whine about adding. Using the same old excuse "the game was built for it" just doesn't cut the mustard. As with any community it develops its own unwritten codes and rules. Adding in daoc is seen as a negative thing, this is because of the way the game has developed. People that enjoy "fair" fights (I put fair in "" as no fight in daoc is fair) are stifled in their views by moderators who see the game in a different light. It comes down to the age old question though, when does someone else's right infringe on the rights of another?. Why Mistarrrr Film, is it acceptable for people to go round adding on others but not acceptable for people to be annoyed when their solo fights are ruined. What makes the "adders" (for want of a better word) game style any more superior to the other styles of play?

 

[Sharkith]

Yes, sure, it could be organised. But, some people won't know about it, some people won't care, and some people won't want to join in. You can't enforce rules on people for evenings of RVR, that's the whole point - people can play how they like.

If evenings like this were arranged, it would turn into a huge flame fest on FH, threads would be closed, people would be banned, mods would be baited and flamed themselves...nothing new there then.

Eggy once more you seem to generalise what I am saying and you misrepresent me. Please try to avoid jumping ahead too much and please avoid stating the obvious.

People can go on playing how they like I am suggesting that they be invited to try out something some find different. If they don't like it eggy they can of course go back to playing the way the always do. I don't honestly mind. Stop trying to assert that I am pushing people into doing this or that. I simply asked wouldn't it be nice to have an opportunity to try it out?

At the moment we are not able to do that because strictly speaking the approach is not fully developed.

Finally you generalise once more - in eggy's view there is no future it is always going to be a flame fest. In eggy's future of DAOC we are all fucked. Your views eggy kill the baby in boiling bath water like some kind of cheap snuff movie.

 

[Slayn]

I'd just like to see 'discussion' of adding tolerated, and a distinction made between that and the reasonable enough censure of flaming about adding.

I think you're quite right, in the example of a thread that runs 'you added man, omg you shouldn't add, adding sucks and you suck', to mod it. If adding is used as you say, only as an insult, then it shouldn't be tolerated, as using threads just to insult/abuse others isn't a good thing.

I just don't want to see any thread that mentions adding put into this class of 'add-whine'. I also think people should be allowed to mention specific instances of adding, so long as it's not done in an abusive way, or solely to condemn. It's one of the crucial factors in how rvr'ers from different realms interact, so to have it as a taboo on forums is not helpful.

As for the 'agramon club' idea. I don't think such a formal arrangement is neccessary. I'm already seeing great improvement in the respect various fg's have for eachother in the frontiers, especially with particular guilds. I also see the process of more and more guilds who had perhaps no conception of other people's feelings about them adding, suddenly taking notice, and in view of the new knowledge, deciding to change their playstyle. Not through coersion, but merely because they here the others' perspective and in light of that decide to change their play. I think this quite impressive considering the fact there's no cross-realm communication ingame.

It's mainly the forums which allow this, and, imo, it's also forum mods which to some extent have impeded this. On the whole I am very thankful as without you maintaining these forums there would be zero progress on this front, and it's just a small change I would like to see in otherwise very fair actions by mods.

[edit]Am changing sig now. Let sleeping dogs lie etc.

 

[Vodkafairy]

Hehe sounds like a normal days play to me - it's crap isn't it :> Just get them back when you eventually get to high RR and just kill them over and over again until they learn their lesson to play "fairer" I don't mind dying, but when I am attacking 2-3-4 albs and another arse is shooting me from miles away, they will get their come uppance too.

Oli - Illu

yeah well, soloing can be a true nightmare, but the time you get a good fight all the bitterness fades away and you can look at bridgecampers with a huge smile on your face:

monkeys, saves a trip to the zoo.

 

[Sharkith]

You see here is what I have a gripe with (I know you are using it as an example so it's not a personal gripe just quoting to illustrate).

The underlying assumption is that FG action is a superior form of rvr that everyone should be aspiring to, but those of us branded as 'adders' or 'zergers' or whatever are not necessarily adding or zerging because we can't do fg vs fg rvr or because we are low rr. Many people LIKE zerging and the problem is that the 'fg' crowd want to impose a set of rules that are outside the game rules.

This is once more your construction of FG rvr not mine.

I am sorry you see it this way and I am sorry you feel that this is what it means. There is no outside hierarchy in my view just a series of styles of play to suit experiences that people come to want to share online. If I enjoy FG action more that my privilage to enjoy it more. Its a functional solution and it works.

It does not give me any special right to say its better. Likewise Javai it does not give me any right to tell you how your experience of the game is this or that. What is amazing is that already in the space of two posts both you and eggy seem to put words into my mouth and you are wrong to do that so pleasee spare me some respect. Not once have I done this to you or eggy and already you have both put words into my mouth.

I have to ask why do you want to do this?

Is there something I am not being clear about?

Otr is there an axe your grinding that is not on the table. I have told you what my axe is all about!

 

[Javai]

This is once more your construction of FG rvr not mine.

I am sorry you see it this way and I am sorry you feel that this is what it means. There is no outside hierarchy in my view just a series of styles of play to suit experiences that people come to want to share online. If I enjoy FG action more that my privilage to enjoy it more. Its a functional solution and it works.

It does not give me any special right to say its better. Likewise Javai it does not give me any right to tell you how your experience of the game is this or that. What is amazing is that already in the space of two posts both you and eggy seem to put words into my mouth and you are wrong to do that so pleasee spare me some respect. Not once have I done this to you or eggy and already you have both put words into my mouth.

I have to ask why do you want to do this?

Is there something I am not being clear about?

Otr is there an axe your grinding that is not on the table. I have told you what my axe is all about!

Did I not say fairly clearly I was quoting your words as an example of this and not as your personal opinion?

 

[Bracken]

First rule of communication about adding is to chat about adding and do it appropriately

There is nothing really to chat about in general terms - "adding" is an entirely acceptable part of the game having been the basis of realm v realm since beta. However, as a sub-community (for want of a better phrase) have taken it upon themselves to cut out a playstyle niche (i.e. non-adding) then it is also reasonable that we all try and accommodate that so that they can enjoy their chosen form of the game. This is where the idea of Agramon came up for an add-free zone - something which most reasonable people would accept. But it is very much a niche that people have chosen for themselves. The rest of us are still playing the game as we have done since day 1 and have every right to do that without having to "chat" about or justify our playstyle in anyway. FH is simply preserving that right.

Now, if those who sign up to the "non-add" philosophy want to discuss amongst themselves "adding" then that's entirely up to them. I've got some sympathy for the view that if Nobbynecro and his fg crew post on the forums that they will be roaming Agramon looking for fair fg fights but then proceed to add on everything in sight, that this should be highlighted on the boards. It's essentially highlighting someone's hypocrasy and the fact that they signed up for something but then didn't stick with the understood "rules". But that is very different from Nevillenightshade who's never made any claims about his playstyle and just gets on and plays the game as he's always done having his rr6 grats thread hijacked with "Adding zerging n00b!" (no matter how eloquently that's done).

 

[Gotmagi]

I agree with Vodkafairy's post on the 1st page that whine can sometimes be positive, for me atleast.. would rather let my anger out by /slapping or even /ruding some person or tell them to stop fucking adding rather then let my anger build up.
Also agree with Saraden that the ppl that do solo on regular basis are the ppl that show the most respect for other gamers instead of the "zerg" types that ruin the "soloers" effort by zerging them with a fg or add on a 1v1 fight.
I don't however like to call ppl retards or assholes to their faces in pm's ingame or on Irc/FH, would rather just keep it to myself or just let my anger out my pming a friend saying: Bah xxxx is just a prick zerging me over and over etc

 

[ebenezer]

Agreed 100%

The Mods, such as Filmgoblin pigeon hole all "non-adders" as "1337 omg j00 add kidz" this is simply not true. However because mods are bias (as is anyone) and this is the brush they have decided to tarnish people with that is what will stick.

I feel the attitude of the mods is just as bad as the people who whine about adding. Using the same old excuse "the game was built for it" just doesn't cut the mustard. As with any community it develops its own unwritten codes and rules. Adding in daoc is seen as a negative thing, this is because of the way the game has developed. People that enjoy "fair" fights (I put fair in "" as no fight in daoc is fair) are stifled in their views by moderators who see the game in a different light. It comes down to the age old question though, when does someone else's right infringe on the rights of another?. Why Mistarrrr Film, is it acceptable for people to go round adding on others but not acceptable for people to be annoyed when their solo fights are ruined. What makes the "adders" (for want of a better word) game style any more superior to the other styles of play?

im not gonna go in and try to explain as a broken records about how the game have developped by "some" peope in the direction but not by all..
Im gonn say though that the key word you are looking for is abuse gamah. Abuse in any form is a bad thing acording to decent human standards.
And i know you are for total anrachy on these boards as i was called a tyranth by you for saying rules are good on forums before, but you seem to be ok with enforcing rules ingame? or that people should be able to abuse others for playing in another way...
That flim and the other mods are against the addwhines is built on decent human morals most of the times. And most(i say most cause i know some decent people that got threads locked as well) people that are the loudest whiners over the mods are people that likes to enforce rules in game...and to abuse other players in game and on these boards. So if they feel the mods are on a crusade against them maybe they should start asking themself what the heck they themself are doing
over and out..

 

[Slayn]

Hey Gotmagi,

Just like to say 'hi' and make apology for other night when was running Eclipse group and we killed you mid-way through a fight we had in which you were clearly not engaging.

Was one of our nukers who did it, think Kranes or Sosuke. First thing I hear on vent is 'who killed the norse? he was just stood there watching whole fight', and next thing was from me saying 'omg, what c**t killed Gotmagi!?'. Was on hero not bard that night otherwise prolly would have disbanded them for 5 mins too.

Anyway, respect for running a solo thane. You are with Theodon now as someone that if I see deathspam of a fg hibs killing you, I /send one of them and request that they don't in future.

 

[Saraden]

that might be true in some cases..you cant just generalise like that. i solo alot but have never abused someone by cursing at them. On other hand i seen and heard people get abuses all the time by some soloers.I never heard someone who doesnt solo( apart from some fg people i heard abuses from in past) abuse anyone else or tell them how they should play. So..its all individual my friend. An asshole will be an asshole whether he plays solo..zergs..or fg Please stop labeling people cause of the way they play in a game. Its just plane wrong.

over and out..

How was i generalising ? in past threads (including you commenting) soloers been generalised as persons using abusive language & ability to not respect other's playstyle. which is not true in most cases.

In my opinion, soloers however have more respect to others gamestyle, because they don't add since they don't want to ruin enemys/ally's fight, and therefore get less rp's (expense) than they would otherwise. That's surely more respect to others gamestyle than adding would be ? How's that generalising then ?

 

[Flimgoblin]

In threads like this, those who speak for soloing and not adding, are countered as persons who go around using abusive language, and lack the ability to respect everyone's playstyles.

Which is wrong, because soloers (nonadders) are the ones who respect others gamestyle & playing experience most, and on their own expense.

The soloers who respect other people's playing experience don't whine and abuse people in grats threads, you're right.

There are soloers out there like that.

However there's also people who think that because they choose to solo everyone else should suddenly change their treat them differently and take to ranting in grats threads/writing FAO posts and the like. That's who the "no add whine" rules are in place for.

 

[ebenezer]

How was i generalising ? in past threads (including you commenting) soloers been generalised as persons using abusive language & ability to not respect other's playstyle. which is not true in most cases.

In my opinion, soloers however have more respect to others gamestyle, because they don't add since they don't want to ruin enemys/ally's fight, and therefore get less rp's (expense) than they would otherwise. That's surely more respect to others gamestyle than adding would be ? How's that generalising then ?

You generalise when saying soloers have more respect for other peoples playstyle
Because as i said that is true in some cases. But would you say the soloers that DO abuse others respect their playstyle?
I know what ur getting at by saying that they dont add and thefor "respect" other peoles playstyle , but a guy that not add and then abuse others is an asshole no matter how much his fake in game morals shine. Its like a preacher that preach about morals etc in church and then few hours later he go home and beat his wife( and no..im not saying soloers beats their wife, its just en example).
But yes...here are individuals that respect other people playstyles and never whines nor do they abuse. Those people shows respect, and im sure they would whether they zerged or soloed or did anything else...

 

[Gamah]

im not gonna go in and try to explain as a broken records about how the game have developped by "some" peope in the direction but not by all..
Im gonn say though that the key word you are looking for is abuse gamah. Abuse in any form is a bad thing acording to decent human standards.
And i know you are for total anrachy on these boards as i was called a tyranth by you for saying rules are good on forums before, but you seem to be ok with enforcing rules ingame? or that people should be able to abuse others for playing in another way...
That flim and the other mods are against the addwhines is built on decent human morals most of the times. And most(i say most cause i know some decent people that got threads locked as well) people that are the loudest whiners over the mods are people that likes to enforce rules in game...and to abuse other players in game and on these boards. So if they feel the mods are on a crusade against them maybe they should start asking themself what the heck they themself are doing
over and out..

First of all, you keep changing what I said to you to "suit" your replys to my posts. Duh thats a crap way to "get" your point accross. I said you were a dictators dream because you seemed to have less fight in you than a dead cabbage.

Second of all, I am not for "anarchy" on the forums, not only have I never even suggested the idea, I have never pointed torwards it. Is your idea of anarchy reasonable modding? ok then..back to my point about you being the ideal puppet.

Third, I have never supported the use of abuse on the forums? You "do" know you can say someone is renouned for adding without being abusive? You are my perfect example of a forum puppet, and a perfect example of what brush the "solo crew" are tarnished with.

 

[Slayn]

My post above is direct response to Flim's one at the top of the thread.

Separately I'd like to give a response to the countless posts here and elsewhere that run along the lines of:

'DAoC has always been about/allowed/intended as a game in which people add. You should not be telling other people to do differently. Addwhine is bad and should not be allowed.'

There is truth in what is being said, but imo it's beside the point. Nowhere in the CoC does it say all Hero's should wear scale armour, or be Firbolg by race. But if someone makes a post suggesting that hero's where Reinforced armour and play Celts, does that make the thread off limits? People should be allowed to express their views about how they prefer to play the game. They should be able to attempt to persuade others to agree with them. In the case of every topic except add policy, mods seem to be allowing this to happen.

If the CoC doesn't specify any one way in which RvR should be conducted, then why should the mods prevent players from discussing any one way of conducting rvr?

The people making the argument at the top of this post don't seem to pay attention to this question. They use the fact that there is no explicit mention of not adding in the CoC as a reason that it may not be discussed as a possible playstyle by the playerbase. I see the opposite, there is nothing in the CoC that says players *have* to add, so why can't we discuss the idea of *not* adding amongst the playerbase?

I think what Flim says is the most accurate reading of why the situation is at it is. He said there was a time recently when add-whine was out of control, when saying "you added", was synonymous with saying "you dirty c**t". And therefore it was appropriate that, under these circumstances, mods clamped down very heavily on threads started solely to accuse other people of adding.

I think in light of recent threads, this policy has been shown to no longer be appropriate. As it is causing reasonable, non-abusive discussion to be censored.

I think there is a more appropriate line for mods to take, which would still exclude the possibility of people making personal abuse and insults on the forums. This is what I mentioned in my fist post in the thread.

 

[Bracken]

As with any community it develops its own unwritten codes and rules. Adding in daoc is seen as a negative thing, this is because of the way the game has developed. People that enjoy "fair" fights (I put fair in "" as no fight in daoc is fair) are stifled in their views by moderators who see the game in a different light.

Adding is only seen as negative by a vocal minority who have chosen a particular playstyle for themselves. For the silent majority, many of whom don't even read FH, they have played the game the same way since day 1. The only stifling of views is that you are not allowed to flame people who haven't signed up to the non-adding philosophy.

If me and a group of friends decided for ourselves that everyone in rvr should wear claret and blue, and some other players seeing the beauty of our kit did the same, AND even if we started posting on FH how wearing claret and blue was THE thing to do, we would still have no right to criticise those who didn't join in. No matter how upset we might be by people running round in any other colour, no matter how much it "spoiled" our enjoyment of the game. Why? Because although we might see our chosen play "style" as better and that the world would be a better place if everyone DID join us in our crusade the fact would be that they were under no obligation to do so. They had every right to keep dressing the way they had always done. All we could do would be to try and find an area where the rest of the community let us be and perhaps set up our own forum where we could happily criticise all the n00bs still wearing black...