Working class lower IQ?

[Lucius]

Well, you don't have to be rich to get in. Of course not. However, it certainly helps.

 

[Bugz]

I think:

- If you are working-class and intelligent, you have AS MUCH chance to get into a top university as an intelligent middle-class individual.

- If you are not as intelligent as perhaps should be required, middle-class have a greater chance than working-class

 

[Chronictank]

Only thing 'true' about his statement is that most of the time working class people can't actually afford to study at high levels, so they won't be seen as "intelligent".

EVERY child who's parents are a citizen in the uk can afford to go to university unless they are supporting a family, and at 16 thats not overly likely in the majority of cases
Thats what student loans are for...who's

 

[Chronictank]

Well, you don't have to be rich to get in. Of course not. However, it certainly helps.

again, how?
other than the points i highlighted on

And we are talking about kids of equal achievement

 

[Chronictank]

I think:

- If you are working-class and intelligent, you have AS MUCH chance to get into a top university as an intelligent middle-class individual.

- If you are not as intelligent as perhaps should be required, middle-class have a greater chance than working-class

spot on

 

[Lucius]

again, how?
other than the points i highlighted on

Private education is benefitial in getting into universities through their methods of teaching pupils how to present themselves for interviewers and the fact that they have financial security enables students to go 'full-on' as it were to acheive their goals rather than holding back if they are concerned about funding.

This is based on the assumption that all rich children are privately educated, which is quite a bad generalisation but oh well =P

 

[Iceforge]

sometimes I forget how lucky I am for living in Denmark.....

Can, in theory, go through university without having to pay out any huge amouths.
you might need upto 300quid for books each semester, depending on what you are studying, but thats really the only expense connected with studying.

EDIT: Oh, and those with the highest grades get into universities. No interview, no advantage possible for anyone depending on where they got their education, 100% equal for everybody. And if you got the lowest grade needed for the study you want, you're almost guaranteed to be able to study it, if you dont care which of the universities you will be taking the course at.

 

[Helme]

For starters I can see people having to work at home to help support the family might be an major issue, lowering grades etc.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Ofcourse the average doctor is smarter than the average plummer. Is anyone really denying that here? But that doesnt mean that all doctors are smarter than all plummers. Judging someone because of his background/profession is just stupid though because intelligence is definately not the only factor in these things.

And if you look at business executives and so on you will see that most of them arent that bright at all. They were just good at what they did and rose in the ranks.


Second of all, IQ doesnt really tell anything. Perhaps the dumbest person ive ever met has a high IQ and did well in math/physics etc.

 

[Lamp]

Someone explain this to Dori

 

[Helme]

And yeah IQ tests are only good at measureing how good you do on IQ tests. Unless you can apply the thinking that score you so high to real life it's pretty much useless.

 

[Chronictank]

Private education is benefitial in getting into universities through their methods of teaching pupils how to present themselves for interviewers and the fact that they have financial security enables students to go 'full-on' as it were to acheive their goals rather than holding back if they are concerned about funding.

This is based on the assumption that all rich children are privately educated, which is quite a bad generalisation but oh well =P

I said that already
And i am sorry but i cannot accept someone would not apply to oxbridge if they were smart enough because of "financial security" as your entire higher learning career is paid for by loans

 

[Lucius]

I said that already

Then why are you disagreeing with me? For the sake of it?

And i am sorry but i cannot accept someone would not apply to oxbridge if they were smart enough because of "financial security" as your entire higher learning career is paid for by loans

What I meant is that parents (or even the student themselves) may discourage him or her because of their finance. A rich student will always have backing and thus knows that their are fine. However, a niggling doubt at the back of someone's mind could influence their decision as to whether to apply to the top universities, especially in courses like Medicine where university prestige doesn't generally affect whether the employer employs you (of course, this now contradicts the original topic as to whether university prestige affected job oppertunities but oh well). This is just one of the possibilites - I am not disputing as to whether other ones are perfectly plausible.

 

[Chronictank]

Then why are you disagreeing with me? For the sake of it?

So you agree how much money you have has no relevance to your getting into a good uni if you are smart?

But means not so smart people are given the tools to inflate their chances a bit

 

[Lucius]

So you agree how much money you have has no relevance to your getting into a good uni if you are smart?

A really smart person will have nothing stopping him or her getting into the top universities. So I agree yes.

But means not so smart people are given the tools to inflate their chances a bit

Definatly.

Edit: The point I was making was referring to semi-smart students, not the ones that are really intelligent and could probably get into the university either way.

 

[Lamp]

I used to work with some super sharp cookies. One guy (an Indian chap, not that it matters, but a lof of Indians are phenomenal mathematicians) had a PhD in some obscure branch of calculus, plus at least 2 or 3 other mathematics related Masters and Batchelor degrees. He worked in quantitative analytics - the bank probably paid him close to £1m a year. Anyway, the point is, he was a walking brain...but take him to a bar, and he'd struggle to order a round of drinks.

 

[kirennia]

Personally I think universities are hilarious, places where the self-admiring idiots of our time can go around pretending to be above the rest of us, then landing on their ass when they finish realising that hey... I spent 4 years learning fuck all that will actually help me in my job - nice!

One hell of a generalisation and I still have yet to meet anyone past the first year like that, ranting about their degree and acting like they're above you; they might be thinking it but hey, you can't judge someone by their thoughts alone else we'd all be in trouble

Nothing changed when I got into uni other then my need for reaching longer term goals... I'm not gonna defend that, I just think having a 9 year plan is more then most people think about. When in plymouth, people ask me of my degree and yes, I do get the feeling I'm thought of as lower as soon as I mention my programming but that's a different topic (more relevant to the course itself then to social stereotypes)... As for back in torbay (away from students) I barely mention it.


I do however think there are a vast array of degrees out there with no real potential to go anywhere other then maybe slightly higher up the ladder in an unrelated company. I mean how many media and arts students do something with their degree? How many geography people? Biologists, even mathematicians. Don't get me wrong, they all have their merits but the scope for jobs in those areas is quite small. It's sad really, especially when these days you're looking at huge debts but that's life.

I still remember while doing my a-levels (at a grammar school) they were constantly pushing people to go straight to uni else you'd have no career prospects and do nothing with your life. Since leaving I've realised more and more how distructive that has been to people who leave there. Sure they'd push you to do a maths degree or something, not ever warning you of the career prospects after doing it, instead just telling you how worth while it'll be. As soon as they can add you as another statistic, ticking the 'going to uni' box, that's it, they're done and their school looks better.

This is why in a way, I disagree with the grammar school ideals. It's all run by statistics which you have to uphold in order to maintain that status and the one I was at didn't really care they were setting people up for failure, as long as they kept that status.

Of all of my friends at that school, many went on to university, such was more a standard then an exception yet very few of them, and I do mean VERY few who went directly to uni did very well. There are now a lot of them redoing degrees, doing unrelated jobs or who have flunked out and are still paying off debts.

While I took 4 years out, I'd still say that was better then going directly due to the post a-level mentality which for the most part does come across, as you said, as an 'I'm better' attitude. This isn't born from the person though, it's born from their educators, drilling it into their heads that they ARE better even though as we all (hopefully) know, isn't the case. After a year of being in uni, these people will generally see just how wrong that way of thinking is. Sadly, those who didn't go directly there after being in a grammar school will think less of themselves because of it though.

So my advice to people thinking of going? Unless you've had your heart set on doing a particular degree without having teachers telling you you MUST go, defer for a year. Learn what work is all about. I still say working in the shit jobs which I had over those 4 years is the biggest incentive I ever had to do well at uni and (touch wood) I'm doing much better for it.

Again, this could be seen as talking down to people but I still think that going directly to university after a-levels is one of the stupidest things a person can do in their career. So so many people I've seen mess up, come out with 2.2s, be unsatisfied with their choices, hate the work they're in, work in unrelated jobs... the list goes on. Granted this isn't the case for everyone but those older going into do a degree all seem to be doing a damn sight better then those younger going there, even if it's just by a year.

Massive generalisations, limited to knowledge from my school but I don't care, I know I'm not alone in this way of thinking...

I think:

- If you are working-class and intelligent, you have AS MUCH chance to get into a top university as an intelligent middle-class individual.

- If you are not as intelligent as perhaps should be required, middle-class have a greater chance than working-class

Bang on...

 

[Lamp]

All people who make generalisations are sexual tyranosaurs

 

[AngelHeal]

Now you tell me, how is it possible to fail if you really want to succeed instead of snide one liners

It's possible because your surroundings have big influence on you during your school (incl uni) period. if 99% arround you hasnt finished uni, the chances are you finishing uni are smaller then a person who's surrounded by people who did finished uni.

it has to do with force fields:

person in the center gets pulled by: friends, work, school, parents, himself, tv, radio, paper.

Now it's up to the person what to decide, however each of those force fields have huge influence of that decision.

On purpose or not, it wont be 100% his own opinion making that decision.

 

[old.Tohtori]

it has to do with force fields:

Lando: Break off the attack! The shield is still up!

Had to

 

[AngelHeal]

Lando: Break off the attack! The shield is still up!

Had to

..youd better make it up to me 2night!

 

[old.Tohtori]

..youd better make it up to me 2night!

Only if you bring your twin sistaaaaah!

 

[AngelHeal]

Only if you bring your twin sistaaaaah!

hummmmmmm..

Spoiler

i dont have one

 

[old.Tohtori]

hummmmmmm..

Spoiler

i dont have one

Oh for f*cks sake just say she is!

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

People tend to meet up with likewise people. You don't often see a constructionworker sitting next to a stock trader or a surgeon. People tend to meet up with other people of an approximately equal intelligence, because that makes communication a lot easier, thus making the relation between them easier.

Intelligence will, on average, get you further in life. Sure, there will be plumbers with an IQ of over 150 for whatever reason he prefers, but it's unlikely you'll see a Mechanical Engineer with a below-average IQ. You need some base-level.
Yes, IQ without persistence won't get you far. You'll get further with an average IQ and persistance, but no matter how much persistance you'll have, you won't reach the top jobs if you don't atleast have some higher baseline IQ.

Also, IQ is somewhat inheritable, and since likewise people meet likewise people, IQ seperation will continue to increase.
Ofcourse, being from a working class family doesn't mean that your IQ is low. It does mean however that on average the IQ level there is lower.

 

[Maeloch]

People tend to meet up with likewise people. You don't often see a constructionworker sitting next to a stock trader or a surgeon. People tend to meet up with other people of an approximately equal intelligence, because that makes communication a lot easier, thus making the relation between them easier.

Ah this has got nothing to do with IQ, just circumstance which brings people together - and also people are often uncomfortable mingling outside there class, either higher or lower.

Can't remember who said it - you can marry outside your religion, you can marry outside your race, but never marry outside your class. Another one - an englishman only has to open his mouth for another englishman to hate him for it. (ie as soon as you open ur mouth you give away ur class)