Working class lower IQ?

[Bugz]

Which is why Labour need to fuck off getting rid of grammar schools.

I know for certain if I was in a state school, I would not have reached full potential as I do in grammar.

 

[Lucius]

Which is why Labour need to fuck off getting rid of grammar schools.

I know for certain if I was in a state school, I would not have reached full potential as I do in grammar.

True but universities will give more leniency (probably spelt wrong) to people from state schools . And once people get to university they all get equal learning.

 

[kirennia]

There are problems coming from poorer backgrounds but I have absolutely no doubt that people are born with intelligence regardless of which social group they fit into. As other people said, you can however be hugely intelligent but end up not being very 'knowledgable' because of where you come from and the fact that you don't have the same oppertunities someone from a rich background will have.

On the other hand, I do think there is a certain correlation between having money and general intelligence, afterall, in order for your parents to get money, they generally have to be professionals themselves so it'd be in your genes. Of coruse there are exceptions to every rule (cough) paris hilton, footballers kids etc (cough) but there is still a correlation none the less.

I can see why people don't get into these types of universities though as money issues are a big worry. I'm currently in £16,300 debt through just 2 years of uni and I came here with £2,500 to start with. There have been times my parents have helped me out, tiding me over until the next student loan comes in but I always pay it back. If your parents are struggling financially however, you don't have that option and will get further in debt through loans etc.

Sadly for me, I was brought into uni in 2006 when the new fees were introduced but it wasn't until 2007 that the new bursaries were introduced to compensate so I'm not a valid candidate for them. To put it into perspective, my debt is going to be this:

3x£3000 for degree fees = £9000
3x£4400 for degree loan = £13200
capped overdraft at £1750
£6000 for masters course
£4400 for masters fees

= £34350

And I think I'm going to need a loan on top of that for my masters, not to mention needing to learn to drive, cisco certificates, MCSE etc etc...

That's why a lot of potentials from working class backgrounds don't go into higher education because in the short run, you're absolutely fucked and when a lot of university trained people are still coming out with low wages, some of which wont ever pay that back in their lifetime.

It does have the added advantage of steering people away from the useless degrees which will never get them anywhere anyway.

 

[Bugz]

True but universities will give more leniency (probably spelt wrong) to people from state schools . And once people get to university they all get equal learning.

Probably, but the improved chances should be in the hands of the school grammar pupil.

 

[Lucius]

Probably, but the improved chances should be in the hands of the school grammar pupil.

Yes, they pay money so they should have more chances. Labour's rules, not mine.

 

[kirennia]

Yes, they pay money so they should have more chances.

But that's Labour for you.

Grammar schools are free mate; you meant private schools?

 

[Bugz]

I'm confused now

Grammar schools are indeed free!

 

[Lucius]

My fault, meant private schools as it's true that universities are meant to treat state school and private school children equally.

 

[Bugz]

They are meant to but I'd be incredibly surprised if they are.

Universities want people who will not back down from the course - unfortunately, private schools generally offer that better than state schools.

Where is grammar schools in therE? I couldn't say.

 

[Lucius]

Universities want people who will not back down from the course - unfortunately, private schools generally offer that better than state schools.

Labour have people making sure they are not 'bias' through statistics etc etc. Whereas the balance for the top universities is still definatly tipped towards private schools it's getting more and more 'even'.

 

[Chronictank]

They are meant to but I'd be incredibly surprised if they are.

Universities want people who will not back down from the course - unfortunately, private schools generally offer that better than state schools.

Where is grammar schools in therE? I couldn't say.

Grammar Schools legally can't ask you for a fee
They can however ask for "voluntary" contributions

And yes grammar schools are open to people from all classes, you just have to pass the test to get in

 

[Bugz]

Grammar Schools legally can't ask you for a fee
They can however ask for "voluntary" contributions

And yes grammar schools are open to people from all classes, you just have to pass the test to get in

Indeed but what I meant is that it's hard for us to judge where abouts in the void from state schools to private schools grammar schools lie.

 

[Lucius]

Very true Bugz - I'd place Grammar schools a bit closer to state schools. This is because you will still get people capable of getting into Grammar school in a state school (I chose not to apply for my grammar school as I wanted to remain with my friends) and you will still get underachievers in grammar schools. This can also be said for private schools but it's the fact that private schools probably offer the best education and the fact they are paid for suggests privilidge. That's what seperates private schools from the other two, for me anyway.

Although I am pretty clueless on this matter so probably way off the mark.

 

[Chronictank]

Grammar schools are still state schools afaik (not 100% on this). They have a higher level of teaching due to, in theory anyway, more intelligent students because they cherry pick the best of the bunch

Historically a grammar school is defined by whether they teach Latin or Greek (the one i went to taught both incidentaly), but i dont think that is still the case

As for achievement, there is now little difference between state comprehensives and grammar schools in terms of failure rates

 

[Bugz]

Well I guess it depends on how you define: state schools.

I'd say Grammar Schools should be classed as separate because they get very different opinions to state schools.

I know our grammar school gets a lot less funding than all of the state schools in the area, for example.

 

[Yrendan]

You had an IQ of 160 and you couldn't even get into UCL? That's not even top 5 ... I don't think you are telling the truth about your IQ, if I'm being honest

Actually most of intelligent people fail exams simply because they test them on subjects they dont like... Many famous geniuses failed to enter university like
Srinivasa Ramanujan just because he failed all non mathematical subjects

 

[Bugz]

Or the classic:

'I was more intelligent than my markers'

 

[BloodOmen]

Well as i've already said I think its a load of shite... My IQ doesn't span to the stars like some but I get along I was offended when I seen this on the bbc news website tho simply because I personally don't like smug rich people that think they're better than everyone else.

People have pointed out rich people get the edge on life due to money and such but as i've already said if people put the effort/hours/days/years in there is no reason why they can't be 10x smarter than the average rich kid thats been through public school or such.

Everyone should be treated equally. I think its unfair if 2 people goto the same job interview and Person A gets the job because he went to a well known private school and a great uni (oxford or such) and Person B gets told to fuck off despite Person B being the most suitable for the job.

It angers me *shakes fist at monitor*

 

[Chronictank]

thats because the concept of a state school is confused in this thread

After the war there was a drive to get rid of grammar schools (defined by their teaching of the languages), and replace them with state comprehensive schools and technical colleges.
So grammar schools either went private or they remained running with reduced funding as a state school.
Thats where it comes from, so a grammar school nowdays has little meaning as it could be either state or privately funded.

Comprehensive schools are now the norm, and grammar schools are reduced in numbers but they are both still state schools unless privately funded (even if part funded by donations).

State schools get more funding because their spread of ability and number of students is far larger (in theory anyway), whereas grammar schools will have a trend of more high achievers meaning resources can be focused rather than spread out

@BloodOmen what school you went to doesn't really matter a whole lot tbh, what uni you went to on the other hand...

 

[Lucius]

Everyone should be treated equally. I think its unfair if 2 people goto the same job interview and Person A gets the job because he went to a well known private school and a great uni (oxford or such) and Person B gets told to fuck off despite Person B being the most suitable for the job.

As much as I agree with you that will just cause all the people at Oxbridge to whine because they paid x5 the amount of money someone else paid for an education -.-

 

[BloodOmen]

As much as I agree with you that will just cause all the people at Oxbridge to whine because they paid x5 the amount of money someone else paid for an education -.-

A fair point but if you come from a rich family Oxbridge fee's are generally pocket change in comparison to be fair + they don't even need to fork out for loans and such as their parents dish it all out on a silver plater for them.

 

[Chronictank]

A fair point but if you come from a rich family Oxbridge fee's are generally pocket change in comparison to be fair + they don't even need to fork out for loans and such as their parents dish it all out on a silver plater for them.

you just complained about being discrminated against and then you make a completely unfounded comment like that...

You get into oxbridge by working hard and getting good grades, i know 4 people who went there
none of which have rich parents who pay for their loans or had it on a "silver plater"
Having rich parents may well help, but saying you have to be rich to get in is plain retarded

 

[Lamp]

You don't always have to be amazingly smart to be in a well paid job.

You have to work hard, get your head down, etc.

Exactly.

 

[Yrendan]

Or the classic:

'I was more intelligent than my markers'

I dont know how you enter university in uk but in greece you get examined on physics(mechanics), chemistry(organic), biology(molecular), advanced mathematics, statistics, literature (oO), history(oO)
I was in top10 of physics balcanic exams for 2 years but I simply failed to enter physics and advanced mathematics university of athens just because I did not like history biology and literature... I ended joining electric & electronic engineering polytechnical university and now that I got my degree jumped to civil engineering university and when i finish it and still have enough time I will go to physics university

 

[BloodOmen]

you just complained about being discrminated against and then you make a completely unfounded comment like that...

You get into oxbridge by working hard and getting good grades, i know 4 people who went there
none of which have rich parents who pay for their loans or had it on a "silver plater"
Having rich parents may well help, but saying you have to be rich to get in is plain retarded

I don't mean to be offensive but its true :l i'm not saying its rich peoples fault that they're brought up in a well off family with pretty much everything given to them.. but the fact remains Chronic.

As for the Oxbridge thing it was just an example response to the previous post.

p.s and technically I didn't say you had to be rich to get into it.. all I said was the fee's for it were pocket change to richer families where as people from a poorer back ground end up with massive loans at the end of it all (and no before you twist my words i'm not saying every single rich person gets it all on a plater I was merely comparing the 2 different backgrounds) alot of rich families are strict with children and tell them they need to earn it all.

As said before tho it still doesn't change the fact.

 

[Lucius]

Basically every post here has just demonstrated how hard it is for the government/universities/schools/employers to make things 'fair' as there are so many variables and situations that can contribute to one having a better or worse education/IQ.

It's just the way things are unfortunatly

 

[BloodOmen]

Basically every post here has just demonstrated how hard it is for the government/universities/schools/employers to make things 'fair' as there are so many variables and situations that can contribute to one having a better or worse education/IQ.

It's just the way things are unfortunatly

Aye! we reap what we sow and all that

 

[Chronictank]

I don't mean to be offensive but its true

It's not a fact though...
Having "rich" parents gives you the advantage of:
- knowing how to articulate yourself in a manner that is fitting for the uni
- dress adequetly for a interview
- tools needed to do well such as tuition, this isn't needed but helps the pupils who aren't that good at x subject

Which, given, if you live on a rough estate you will speak and act a certain way compared to if you are with more "sophisticated" (for lack of a better word) people. But lets be honest, if you are going to a oxbridge interview surely you won't turn up in unpresentable clothes and use slang?!?

:l i'm not saying its rich peoples fault that they're brought up in a well off family with pretty much everything given to them.. but the fact remains Chronic.

As for the Oxbridge thing it was just an example response to the previous post.

p.s and technically I didn't say you had to be rich to get into it.. all I said was the fee's for it were pocket change to richer families where as people from a poorer back ground end up with massive loans at the end of it all (and no before you twist my words i'm not saying every single rich person gets it all on a plater I was merely comparing the 2 different backgrounds) alot of rich families are strict with children and tell them they need to earn it all.

As said before tho it still doesn't change the fact.

I don't get your point :s
The uni never see's how much you or your parent's earn
Loans are paid into student accounts by the council, this in turn in paid to the uni by the student in most cases
The uni doesn't know how much the household income is outside asking the student directly

 

[Helme]

Only thing 'true' about his statement is that most of the time working class people can't actually afford to study at high levels, so they won't be seen as "intelligent".

Personally I think universities are hilarious, places where the self-admiring idiots of our time can go around pretending to be above the rest of us, then landing on their ass when they finish realising that hey... I spent 4 years learning fuck all that will actually help me in my job - nice!


edit: unless ofcourse, their job is of the academic sort - then they can continue.

 

[Bugz]

Personally I think universities are hilarious, places where the self-admiring idiots of our time can go around pretending to be above the rest of us, then landing on their ass when they finish realising that hey... I spent 4 years learning fuck all that will actually help me in my job - nice!

True for some courses - completely wrong for others