Wonky missile aimed at Israel ends up hitting Aqaba, Jordan

[tierk]

No, you hold on and go re-read the thread. I'm the one who said 1948 was the pivotal date for the troubles in the region, but this doesn't mean that there were no problems before that -- mostly arising out of the sale of the original kibbutz land to Jews by the Ottoman Empire.

It really isn't something to flame me about, its a matter of historical record and doesn't assign blame to either side.

I am not flaming.

Just pointing out that buying land in a country doesnt entitle you to declare yourself an independent country. I also gave you a few examples to show how absurd that particular notion is as a justification. Also your entiure argument about selling od land to Jews by Turks was in reality such an insignificant part of what was occurring that it doesnt bear mentioning.

Regarding 1948 being some sort of major pivotal event, as Scouse says you are in effect ignoring events of far greater significance, events basically that meant '48 was the end result.

 

[Turamber]

Just pointing out that buying land in a country doesnt entitle you to declare yourself an independent country. I also gave you a few examples to show how absurd that particular notion is as a justification.

And yet I didn't say anything of the sort, merely that tensions rose in the region as the original kibbutz land was purchased from the Ottomans. You only have to look at the history books to check the voracity of the statement.

You may wish to also look at the history of Axum. Originally a Christian Kingdom, the very first in fact, it was friendly to the Muslims and when they were being persecuted in Arabia many moved to Axum. Hit up Google and see what happened next.

Nobody is saying it is right or justified, but "shit happens".

 

[DaGaffer]

I am not flaming.

Just pointing out that buying land in a country doesnt entitle you to declare yourself an independent country. I also gave you a few examples to show how absurd that particular notion is as a justification. Also your entiure argument about selling od land to Jews by Turks was in reality such an insignificant part of what was occurring that it doesnt bear mentioning.

Regarding 1948 being some sort of major pivotal event, as Scouse says you are in effect ignoring events of far greater significance, events basically that meant '48 was the end result.

Prior to the Mandate Jews made up 1/6 of the population of Palestine, it doubled under the Mandate prior to WWII.

As for whether buying land gives you a right to run the country; well it depends how much land doesn't it? Israel is hardly the first place a country has been bought out from under the locals; New Zealand springs to mind, as does Liberia, and the Ottomans had form in this respect (they flogged Cyprus to the British for a start).

Frankly if it wasn't for the religious significance of the region to the various sky-fairy worshippers, Israel would be a non-issue; compared to the numbers of all the other displaced ethnic groups between 1900-1950, the fate of the Palestinians is small potatoes.

 

[tierk]

Prior to the Mandate Jews made up 1/6 of the population of Palestine, it doubled under the Mandate prior to WWII.

As for whether buying land gives you a right to run the country; well it depends how much land doesn't it? Israel is hardly the first place a country has been bought out from under the locals; New Zealand springs to mind, as does Liberia, and the Ottomans had form in this respect (they flogged Cyprus to the British for a start).

Frankly if it wasn't for the religious significance of the region to the various sky-fairy worshippers, Israel would be a non-issue; compared to the numbers of all the other displaced ethnic groups between 1900-1950, the fate of the Palestinians is small potatoes.

Accurate figures are hard to come by but most studies etc seem to be on a figure between 9-11% Jews to Arabs. Prior to say 1880 you can reduce that figure greatly but as i said hard to get accurate figures because by this time the Ottoman Empire was not exactly renonwed for great Admin work and the figures will vary depending on the agenda of the person quoting figures.

Sorry but LOL at your comment about Cyprus, as if the Ottomans - who by this time were being called the "Sickman of Europe" - had any choice in the matter or the annexation of Egypt by Britain.

As for your throw away line at the end, i would hazard a guess that you would give a shit regardles of fairy sky gods if it happened in England. I would also like to point out that pretty much every flash point since WW2 has its root causes in the direct policies of one of the European Powers and their empires or disssolution of their empires.

 

[DaGaffer]

As for your throw away line at the end, i would hazard a guess that you would give a shit regardles of fairy sky gods if it happened in England..

Actually as I live in Ireland now and have Irish family I'm surrounded by constant reminders of past injustices, especially in the area of nicking people's land, but frankly there reaches a point where it becomes irrelevant. There are those who get over it (Ugandan Indians for example), those who have no voice or sympathy (the 10 million ethnic Germans kicked out of Eastern Europe after WWII, the Anatolian Greeks, the countless Soviet subject peoples including ethnic Russians), and those that somehow retain the world's sympathy despite being nothing special and not an actual ethnic group in the first place (guess who?)

I would also like to point out that pretty much every flash point since WW2 has its root causes in the direct policies of one of the European Powers and their empires or disssolution of their empires.

And your point is? You can either have empires and live with the consequences (including unity through coercion, and random shufflings of entire populations, see above), or you can not have empires and live with the consequences of their dissolution. What you can't do is complain about evil European imperialists fucking things up, because we're not them. They're dead, and not really listening. Its too easy to blame dead white guys instead of live brown ones. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the arab world could rescue the Palestinians from their plight at a stroke, but they don't, as building fancy hotels and buying shitty football clubs is a far better use of their resources.

 

[tierk]

And your point is?

Sorry but i just do not see anyone accepting what has happened in Palestine if they had to take it in their own countries. Its easy for me to say well i live in such and such place and have relatives from here but the simple fact is, it is unacceptable and it is not something i would accept.

If as i suggest in my first post we had that situation in Britain i wonder what the reaction would be. Seeing some of the reactions of people on this forum and i would hazard a guess, society at large, at the mere suggestion that British Muslims should be allowed to practise Sharia Law in Britain and now try and imagine Bradford being declared an Indepedent State and by the UN no less.

If that was the case then someone should have told the Irish for the last 300-400 years

I do not complain about the "evil european fucks" and i dont make a point about "white man" vs "brown man" - the color thing always makes me laugh and it is such a typical European mindset to always talk about color like it has any bearing on anything - but rather just pointing out that if you happen to look at places were conflicts are occuring it is invariably in places were a European Empires had a hand in.

The problem with your last comment about the Arab world solving this issue "at a stroke" is correct on many levels and yet so incorrect. Why should Arabs give up land for what in effect were European crimes? Was Hitler an Arab?

What about the millions of refugees that wish to go back to their homes?

It is really simple.

A decision was taken outside the area to fuck these people over and it has happened time and time again the world over. Some people roll over and die - Red Indians etc - and others fight - Irish, Arabs and Muslims in general etc.

Until the Jews go back to where they came from or accept a workable solution - of which i ahve my own ideas - this will continue.

 

[Turamber]

Until the Jews go back to where they came from

And yet they would argue they have done exactly that.

 

[tierk]

And yet they would argue they have done exactly that.

Hold on a minute.

This whole argument of it was theirs in the first place is based on the bible?

On the one hand we have a large section of people on this forum and society at large who take great pleasure in deriding people for believing or having faith - please note the earlier comment about mystical sky fairies as a classic example.

Yet i hear this reason trotted out repeatedly. So is the bible just a fantasy novel or are we take them as truth?

****EDIT****

Even by their own definition they should still be waiting for the Messiah.

 

[Scouse]

is the bible just a fantasy novel or are we take them as truth?

You can't seriously be asking Turamber that - he's the sort of tit who refuses blood when he's suffering serious illness in hospital - just because the 2000 year old babeh jebuz may cryz

 

[Turamber]

Hold on a minute.

This whole argument of it was theirs in the first place is based on the bible?

No? Seriously where did you learn your debating skills? They need some work.

It is a matter of historical record that the Jewish people lived in the area of Palestine and were deported by the Romans after some major revolts. If you don't happen to believe the Roman literary sources you may wish to consult the work of a number of archaelogists who have found ancient Hebrew settlements throughout the area.

I appreciate you are on the Arab 'side' of this debate but ignoring historical sources just because they don't back up your blinkered one sided view is not a good way of swaying people to your viewpoint.

And no, I'm not anti-Arab I have travelled through North Africa and the Middle East and, for the most part, I love the Arab peoples. I hate extremists and blinkered people of all races and viewpoints however and I wish there could be a solution to the current travails, but it has to go beyond your utterly naive "Jews go home".

 

[Turamber]

You can't seriously be asking Turamber that - he's the sort of tit who refuses blood when he's suffering serious illness in hospital - just because the 2000 year old babeh jebuz may cryz

I happen to believe in something greater than me, you might want to try it sometime.

 

[tierk]

You can't seriously be asking Turamber that - he's the sort of tit who refuses blood when he's suffering serious illness in hospital - just because the 2000 year old babeh jebuz may cryz

Its not aimed specifically at him - as he is just raising a point that i hear everytime this issue is discussed by anyone.

God gave it to them!! So it must be ok.

 

[Turamber]

Its not aimed specifically at him - as he is just raising a point that i hear everytime this issue is discussed by anyone.

God gave it to them!! So it must be ok.

Except I didn't say that :S You said they should return where they came from, and they came from Palestine originally.

 

[tierk]

Except I didn't say that :S You said they should return where they came from, and they came from Palestine originally.

You implied that.

The majority have come from everywhere but Palestine. Iran, Yemen, Morrocco, Poland, Germany, Russia hell even Iraq.

 

[Turamber]

You implied that.

The majority have come from everywhere but Palestine. Iran, Yemen, Morrocco, Poland, Germany, Russia hell even Iraq.

No, no I didn't and TBH I can't be bothered to discuss such a complex subject with somebody of such a limited view and who puts words in people's mouths. Have fun with the blinkers firmly on.

 

[tierk]

No, no I didn't and TBH I can't be bothered to discuss such a complex subject with somebody of such a limited view and who puts words in people's mouths. Have fun with the blinkers firmly on.

You have a strange idea on what makes a discussion. You make points, which i respond to, response which clearly you have no answers for and now want to fire off a cheap shot about blinkered views and limited knowlegde. LOL

Its is not like you have added or made anything remotely close to a coherent argument in the first place.

Blinkers?? LOL take a look in the mirror.

Oh btw it is not anywhere near as complicated a subject as you are implying.

 

[DaGaffer]

Sorry but i just do not see anyone accepting what has happened in Palestine if they had to take it in their own countries. Its easy for me to say well i live in such and such place and have relatives from here but the simple fact is, it is unacceptable and it is not something i would accept.

If as i suggest in my first post we had that situation in Britain i wonder what the reaction would be. Seeing some of the reactions of people on this forum and i would hazard a guess, society at large, at the mere suggestion that British Muslims should be allowed to practise Sharia Law in Britain and now try and imagine Bradford being declared an Indepedent State and by the UN no less.

If British Muslims ever became a majority in the UK, its entirely possible that's what would happen. And as they'd be the majority, who's to argue otherwise? The fact is, the situation you describe has happened in Britain, more than once, but we look at the wholesale takeovers of the country by the Romans and Normans (and Danes) through a historic lens. That's the question you have to ask, when do the events of 1948 stop being a current event? Now? A hundred years from now? Never? Now of course you can flip that argument around and apply it to the Jews equally, but with the caveat that they were a completely dispossed people with nowhere to call home. As I said, if they'd been given a homeland in Madagascar or Alaska or wherever, no one would give a shit, but because its "The Holy Land" it remains a hot topic despite the fact that its the size of a postage stamp and there's no shortage of land in the arab world to absorb the Palestinians.

I do not complain about the "evil european fucks" and i dont make a point about "white man" vs "brown man" - the color thing always makes me laugh and it is such a typical European mindset to always talk about color like it has any bearing on anything - but rather just pointing out that if you happen to look at places were conflicts are occuring it is invariably in places were a European Empires had a hand in.

There's barely a border in the world that wasn't defined by Europeans so your point is meaningless; hell, the whole concept of the nation state is a European invention anyway, there would be no "Palestine" without Europeans, it certainly wasn't a country, mandate or dependency under the Ottomans.

The problem with your last comment about the Arab world solving this issue "at a stroke" is correct on many levels and yet so incorrect. Why should Arabs give up land for what in effect were European crimes? Was Hitler an Arab?

Because it would be a very small price to pay for peace? As long as the world expects the West to supply all the initiative, nothing will happen because the West can't and won't kick the Israelis into the sea. Only the arab world can cut the Gordian Knot.

What about the millions of refugees that wish to go back to their homes?

They can't. Move on. Same as all the other millions of Displaced Persons (or rather, descendents of Displaced Persons). This is my point, you're not talking about the actual people kicked out of Palestine, but their children and grandchildren

A decision was taken outside the area to fuck these people over and it has happened time and time again the world over. Some people roll over and die - Red Indians etc - and others fight - Irish, Arabs and Muslims in general etc.

Until the Jews go back to where they came from or accept a workable solution - of which i ahve my own ideas - this will continue.

Where would that be then? Most of the Israeli population were born there, unlike the Palestinian "refugees" (who should all be Jordanian or Lebanese or Egyptian by now) . As for whether the Palestinians were fucked over by the west, absolutely, and tough. Get in line.

 

[tierk]

If British Muslims ever became a majority in the UK, its entirely possible that's what would happen. And as they'd be the majority, who's to argue otherwise?

Who is talking about majorities here? Jews were not a majority in Palestine in '48 and they still had a substantial population of Arabs living in what they declared as Israel.

.. With about 32% of the population, the Jews would get 56% of the territory, an area that contained 499,000 Jews and 438,000 Arabs, though most of this territory was in the inhospitable Negev Desert in the south. The Palestinian Arabs would get 42% of the land, which had a population of 818,000 Palestinian Arabs and 10,000 Jews.

However, regardless of that it wasnt the point i was making or responding to. Someone suggested that part of the problem was created because Turks sold land to Jews, hence giving them some sort of right to declare themselves a independent country.

The fact is, the situation you describe has happened in Britain, more than once, but we look at the wholesale takeovers of the country by the Romans and Normans (and Danes) through a historic lens. That's the question you have to ask, when do the events of 1948 stop being a current event? Now? A hundred years from now?

That happend when the people that are dispossessed accept and clearly in some cases its not 1-100 years. Take the situation in Ireland, 350 years on and finally we have some sort of peace.

Never? Now of course you can flip that argument around and apply it to the Jews equally, but with the caveat that they were a completely dispossed people with nowhere to call home.

If you are so concerned for their lack of a homeland why dont you give up a chunk of land in Ireland or England anywhere in Europe or the USA for that matter. Its not like its is not big areas to choose from.

As I said, if they'd been given a homeland in Madagascar or Alaska or wherever, no one would give a shit, but because its "The Holy Land" it remains a hot topic despite the fact that its the size of a postage stamp and there's no shortage of land in the arab world to absorb the Palestinians.

Its got nothing to do with it being "the holy land" and everything to do with the fact that people already lived in this place that and have been dispossessed.

There's barely a border in the world that wasn't defined by Europeans so your point is meaningless; hell, the whole concept of the nation state is a European invention anyway, there would be no "Palestine" without Europeans, it certainly wasn't a country, mandate or dependency under the Ottomans.

What a wonderful job they have done.

Let me clear something up for you. Palestine Lebanon Jordan and Syria were all known and operated as an area known as Ash-Sham. You wouldnt know that because you want to believe all the rubbish propagated by Jews to justify what has essentially been a land grab from Arabs. It was European powers who split this area up (Picot Sykes Agreement).

Because it would be a very small price to pay for peace?

If it is such a small price go ahead and create a nation for Jews in your country.

As long as the world expects the West to supply all the initiative, nothing will happen because the West can't and won't kick the Israelis into the sea. Only the arab world can cut the Gordian Knot.

Trust me i know full well the West will never supply a solution and i also know clearly that it Western governments that are part of the problem.

They can't. Move on. Same as all the other millions of Displaced Persons (or rather, descendents of Displaced Persons). This is my point, you're not talking about the actual people kicked out of Palestine, but their children and grandchildre

Well lets flip that around a bit and apply that to Jews instead seeing as they didnt live in Palestine for somewhere in the region of 2000 years. Why not just keep em in Europe?

Where would that be then? Most of the Israeli population were born there, unlike the Palestinian "refugees" (who should all be Jordanian or Lebanese or Egyptian by now) . As for whether the Palestinians were fucked over by the west, absolutely, and tough. Get in line.

Well seeing as Jews seem to have a right to return to Palestine after 2000 years... see what i am getting at?

 

[DaGaffer]

You're totally missing the point. Apart from the fact that even if some European country said "here you go, have a bit of our country as a Jewish homeland", they wouldn't go, and given their recent European experience back in 1948, they wouldn't have gone then either. So you're faced with the reality of Israel, and a nation of people who are not going to "go back where they came from"*, wherever that is, (and have the killware, including nukes, to back that up), which means the Palestinians are never going to get their land back (it would be radioactive glass before that happens), so the only answer is for the arab world to come up with a solution. The military option has been tried and found wanting, the two state solution is struggling along (on the West Bank anyway), so come up with something new or quit whining.

And I'll reiterate, this has everything to do with the fact that this is "The Holy Land", there are other diasporas of moslems (Circassians for example) that don't get any of the attention the Palestinians get, not because the arab world gives a shit about Palestinians, but they do give a shit about the so-called sacred land they lived on.

*Many Jews tried to go back where they came from after the war and were killed for their troubles. Look up Jedwabne in Poland for an example.

 

[tierk]

You're totally missing the point. Apart from the fact that even if some European country said "here you go, have a bit of our country as a Jewish homeland", they wouldn't go, and given their recent European experience back in 1948, they wouldn't have gone then either. So you're faced with the reality of Israel, and a nation of people who are not going to "go back where they came from"*, wherever that is, (and have the killware, including nukes, to back that up), which means the Palestinians are never going to get their land back (it would be radioactive glass before that happens), so the only answer is for the arab world to come up with a solution. The military option has been tried and found wanting, the two state solution is struggling along (on the West Bank anyway), so come up with something new or quit whining.

And I'll reiterate, this has everything to do with the fact that this is "The Holy Land", there are other diasporas of moslems (Circassians for example) that don't get any of the attention the Palestinians get, not because the arab world gives a shit about Palestinians, but they do give a shit about the so-called sacred land they lived on.

*Many Jews tried to go back where they came from after the war and were killed for their troubles. Look up Jedwabne in Poland for an example.

You are correct the solution is in the hands of the Arab countries but not in the way you are suggesting. Yes Arabs have to deal with the reality if Israel today. Is a two state solution a solution? No not really esp in the way that Israel is wishing to impose it in its current format and by force.

Your comment about turning the whole area into glass i believe is nonsense as it would entail killing many millions of Jews as well as Arabs, therefore, an unlikely scenario.

The idea of sending Jews back to were they come from is not difficult concept to understand as the vaste majority came from soewhere else and usually hold dual nationality.

You dont have to send them back in coffins or force them back in boats, which is probably what you are all imagining i mean.

The point i am making is that if you make uncomfortable as hell for them in Israel this slows the numbers of new people coming to Israel and eventually you have a negative effect on migration.

Oh and btw i think you need to go and reread about Jedwabne and educate yourself. That massacre didnt happen after WW2 but pretty much near the beginning.

****EDIT****

sorry for slow responses but i am feeling the effects of a serious cold currently

 

[DaGaffer]

You are correct the solution is in the hands of the Arab countries but not in the way you are suggesting. Yes Arabs have to deal with the reality if Israel today. Is a two state solution a solution? No not really esp in the way that Israel is wishing to impose it in its current format and by force.

Your comment about turning the whole area into glass i believe is nonsense as it would entail killing many millions of Jews as well as Arabs, therefore, an unlikely scenario.

The idea of sending Jews back to were they come from is not difficult concept to understand as the vaste majority came from soewhere else and usually hold dual nationality.

You dont have to send them back in coffins or force them back in boats, which is probably what you are all imagining i mean.

The point i am making is that if you make uncomfortable as hell for them in Israel this slows the numbers of new people coming to Israel and eventually you have a negative effect on migration.

Oh and btw i think you need to go and reread about Jedwabne and educate yourself. That massacre didnt happen after WW2 but pretty much near the beginning.

****EDIT****

sorry for slow responses but i am feeling the effects of a serious cold currently

Just over a third of the Israeli population are immigrants (37.9%). The rest were born there and have nowhere to go back to.

 

[SheepCow]

You're all so full of hate. Where is the love?

 

[tierk]

Just over a third of the Israeli population are immigrants (37.9%). The rest were born there and have nowhere to go back to.

I am struggling to find figures for Israeli's with dual nationality but i am pretty sure it is very high number seeing as they have all arrived in the country in the last 60 years from somewhere else.

This chart is taken from the following web site ...

Migration Information Source - Israel: Balancing Demographics in the Jewish State

View attachment 5833

That shows what i am describing - Jews leaving and not returning or waiting for the situation to get better.

Although government officials speak optimistically of new waves coming from North America, Europe, and Argentina, political problems in Israel combined with successful economic and social integration in those regions and the possibility to immigrate to other countries seem to make that an unlikely scenario.

The numerous Israelis who have dual citizenship with either the US or a European country can easily earn money by working abroad. But close family ties and a certain unique quality of life in Israel lead many Israelis to say they will return to Israel when "things quiet down" – in other words when there is less tension between Israel and the Palestinians.

See what i am driving at? It has a certain insane logic to it and this is regardless of them being born in Israel or not.

 

[tierk]

It seems the issue of dual nationality Israeli's is a closely gaurded secret as i sure as hell cant find figures for it. Getting some suggesting as many as 500,000 holding dual US and Israeli but nothing official.

 

[tierk]

You're all so full of hate. Where is the love?

No hate here, just trying to keep the discussion on a reasonable level with no name calling or flaming.

 

[ECA]

Stop being Aspholes guys!

 

[Raven]

I heard the place stinks of piss anyway. Don't know what all the fuss is about.

 

[Scouse]

I happen to believe in something greater than me, you might want to try it sometime.

Tried it. Grew up like that. Realised that whilst it could be very seductive it is, in fact, a massive bag of shit.

 

[Scouse]

Stop being Aspholes guys!

That one was weak. I'm guessing you held back for so long because it took you a while to decide to debase yourself

 

[Turamber]

Tried it. Grew up like that. Realised that whilst it could be very seductive it is, in fact, a massive bag of shit.

And plenty of people have come to God from the opposite standpoint, get over yourself already.