Wizard merging with Theu proposal

[noaim]

Cant someone from albion compare a 45 air/26earth/14ice specced Theurgist, with a 47dark/26supp rm?

I just wanna see what you will say to make the Theurg appear as useless when you compare em, since it appears you can make anything you have look useless even compared to an unspecced thane if you want.

 

[corentmm]

Wizzies are the issue really, not theurgs. The RM would have crap NS [and AE DD?], the theurg pets and a crap mez.

A fire wiz however would have a DD, an AE DD and..er...2 bolts, and some lowbie spells depending on 2nd spec. c.f a RC/sup runie which gets the above +pbt +good gtae +speed +crap nearsight +resist debuffs - all utility that the wizard lacks.

 

[noaim]

Originally posted by corentmm
Wizzies are the issue really, not theurgs. The RM would have crap NS [and AE DD?], the theurg pets and a crap mez.

A fire wiz however would have a DD, an AE DD and..er...2 bolts, and some lowbie spells depending on 2nd spec. c.f a RC/sup runie which gets the above +pbt +good gtae +speed +crap nearsight +resist debuffs - all utility that the wizard lacks.

The theurg would have a crap ae root, but enough to get away most of the times, ae mezz, pets, a nuke not much worse than the rm-nuke, better damageadd, melee-speed buff, the pets (chainstunning, get a few of those away before you take distance and start nuking). Both will have pbt, same speed, and same issues with running both at the same time, or switching. The RM gets AE DD and a DD with cold debuff, and a crap nearsight. I would take the AE CC and the pets over that any day. And if there aint an issue with Theurgs, you would overpower them if merging em with wizards, wouldnt you?

As for wizards, I dont have any sympathy for people whining about the fire and ice-line, the earthline however seems very boring. (Earthline seems boring for theurgs aswell btw) but noone force you to spec earth, so why do it when you got a good pbae-line, or a good ranged damage-dealing line? You get the chose, ranged damage or closeup damage...both lines are fine imo, 2x bolts+speccnuke is good damage, even if it dont delve for more than the other realms. With specnuke, you also save alot of power compared to the RM´s baselinenuke if they spec RC.

 

[corentmm]

tbh I don't know a lot about theurgs - there may be issues but THIS issue is with wizzies - The damage on a wiz or RM is ok, as you said - but RMs get all the utility and wizzies don't.

I'd rather play a RM than a wiz [and I do] simply because they are a more interesting class.

 

[Javai]

Originally posted by hiban
Huh? You used babelfish translation program here?

Dunno what u mean with the stuns here, but no matter whos casting it, its same for all realms. Not only albion gets imunities after casts and effects

The point is slam duration is not reduced by determination and resists where as cleric stun is....

 

[noaim]

Originally posted by corentmm
tbh I don't know a lot about theurgs - there may be issues but THIS issue is with wizzies - The damage on a wiz or RM is ok, as you said - but RMs get all the utility and wizzies don't.

I'd rather play a RM than a wiz [and I do] simply because they are a more interesting class.

But wizzies do get better damageoutput than RM´s, and thats the whole deal with wizzies. A Darkness specced RM get same delve on DD as a fire wiz, but no bolts, and a RC specced RM get no spec DD, but bolts...wizard get both in one line, and they get pbae and not too bad ranged nukes in another line, something that SM´s dont, they got no ranged damage except baseline nuke if they spec for PBAE. They do however get a pet, but as said before, wizards are about damagedealing, and their line DO deal better damage than any of the RM-lines. Then a runemaster can debuff his own damage, but a wizard can keep on nuking alot longer than a darkcarver using baseline nukes, since specnukes dont drain the same power...

There may be an issue, but if there is, RM´s and maybe mentalists have the same issues as wizards.

 

[pitspawn]

But wizzies do get better damageoutput than RM´s, and thats the whole deal with wizzies.

A Darkness specced RM get same delve on DD as a fire wiz

but no bolts

Simple Runebolt Bolt Bolt
4,7,10,13,17,22,28,36,46 (239 DD 30 PP 1875m 2.5s)

and a RC specced RM get no spec DD, but bolts

But RC RM gets 50% elemental debuffs, top GTAoE, top ranged AoE and top 331 DD Bolt. Oh and they can debuff their own base nuke damage type.

and their line DO deal better damage than any of the RM-lines.

Same delve damage under [ Darkness Specialization - Runes of Darkness ]

Then a runemaster can debuff his own damage, but a wizard can keep on nuking alot longer than a darkcarver using baseline nukes, since specnukes dont drain the same power...

FYI debuffing your own damage and basenuking someone for 500 is better than spec nuking someone for 250 (-300)

There may be an issue, but if there is, RM´s and maybe mentalists have the same issues as wizards.

I agree that mentalists are in the same boat as wizards but PLEASE dont say RMs are because theyre not. Lets all not forget all the other utility runemasters get like 153% Group Runspeed, base DEX and STR insta debuffs and nearsight.

 

[lac_desariel]

Originally posted by hiban
Huh? You used babelfish translation program here?

Dunno what u mean with the stuns here, but no matter whos casting it, its same for all realms. Not only albion gets imunities after casts and effects

thats what im saying, if a cleric cast stun my pally can slam inc on me, if i cast stun i know its there to be pbae.. and if the pally slam im already pbae.. you see what i try to say?

 

[noaim]

Originally posted by pitspawn
Simple Runebolt Bolt Bolt
4,7,10,13,17,22,28,36,46 (239 DD 30 PP 1875m 2.5s)

Yeah, baseline with 5 RC-spec...besides, Ice Wizzies get a baselinebolt aswell

Originally posted by pitspawn
But RC RM gets 50% elemental debuffs, top GTAoE, top ranged AoE and top 331 DD Bolt. Oh and they can debuff their own base nuke damage type.

Yeah they can, and its good, but drains lots of power.

Originally posted by pitspawn
Same delve damage under [ Darkness Specialization - Runes of Darkness ]

But darkness RM´s dont get a specbolt.

Originally posted by pitspawn
FYI debuffing your own damage and basenuking someone for 500 is better than spec nuking someone for 250 (-300)

If someone has over 50% resists you wont baselinenuke him for over 500 even after debuff, and most people dont have 50% resists so your specnukes should be between 300-400 at least.

Originally posted by pitspawn
I agree that mentalists are in the same boat as wizards but PLEASE dont say RMs are because theyre not. Lets all not forget all the other utility runemasters get like 153% Group Runspeed, base DEX and STR insta debuffs and nearsight.

Ok lets not forget what RM´s get, but lets forget that a wizard get specnuke+specbolt+baselinebolt in 1 line, baseline damage add, pbae+good ranged specdamage with snare or low debuff damage+baselinebolt if they spec another, and not to mention comparing their class specific RA´s and the fact that wizards can chose a class with 20 higher acuity.

 

[hiban]

Originally posted by lac_desariel
thats what im saying, if a cleric cast stun my pally can slam inc on me, if i cast stun i know its there to be pbae.. and if the pally slam im already pbae.. you see what i try to say?

Tbh, no, its kinda blurry. But anyways. my point (some way back in the thread) was that clerics get stun in baseline as well, just as hibbies casters do. Albs just get it on another class

 

[pitspawn]

Originally posted by noaim
If someone has over 50% resists you wont baselinenuke him for over 500 even after debuff, and most people dont have 50% resists so your specnukes should be between 300-400 at least.[/q]

60-75% of the group people i encounter i face 50%+ resist upwards. The only people i hit for good damage on are some stealthers. And no you might not break 500 with debuff if the enemy have 50%+ resists but you will still be doing twice what a non debuffed wiz hits for.

Ok lets not forget what RM´s get, but lets forget that a wizard get specnuke+specbolt+baselinebolt in 1 line, baseline damage add, pbae+good ranged specdamage with snare or low debuff damage+baselinebolt if they spec another, and not to mention comparing their class specific RA´s and the fact that wizards can chose a class with 20 higher acuity.

If you switched your runie for a albion wizard for a week i guarentee you your frame of mind would change. And btw, avalonian with extra int is nice but if elementalists had access to a high dex race i would remake without a doubt. Avalonian = TARGET.

 

[noaim]

And the moaning about avas being easy target...I was missing that one, glad you pointed it out. I play a luri chanter on US, when we get mezz landed on us, they always pick me first aswell...but it must be because I am a big fucking luri dont you think? Do you think it really matter if you are bigger, when you carry a staff, and like 90% of the avalonian casters, an epic robe aswell? Its not harder to pick out a staffweilding kobbie than a staffweilding avalonian, and the 10 dex you lack from kobbies wont matter at all when ToA and items that lowers castingspeed arrives.

Also it seem that your argument are stuck to that RM´s can debuff their own damage, and that avas are too tall now.

Thats interesting, cause you see, its considered a tad overpowered to be able to debuff your own damage, which mean wizards dont have a problem then, its only that the debuffnukes from RM´s, Chanters and Spirit cabbies are overpowered. Nerf the debuffnuking, without nerfing the debuffassisting, and there isnt a problem with wizzies anymore then?

Anyways, judging by your arguments it sounds like you want wizards to nuke as hard or harder than a debuffnuking RM, which even you should understand wont happen and wouldnt work.

 

[pitspawn]

Nowhere in my post did i say avalonians were too tall, i said they were a target. This is simply because there is no sense in making a avalonian tank/support char. You could say well why choose avalonian then, well its simply because we either get briton (who is lacking in both dex AND int) or avalonian (who has both but is a massive target) I would love to see saracen opened up for elementalists.

I never said i have a problem with runemasters debuffing their own damage. Im saying that runemasters have damage on par/better (if debuffed) with wizards and they get massive utility also.

Wizards are about damage. We sacrifice all utility for that damage, yet in return we are awarded 10 more damage on delve for spec conflag. Fair trade? No.

 

[noaim]

Luris can be heroes etc, and I still get targetted. Dwarfs can be lots of classes, if they carry a staff, they will get targetted, same goes for norsemen and celts and any class in the game that carries a staff, unless maybe if its a troll with 4 on his tail, or a briton that swings his staff.

You get specnuke and specbolt in same line, THATS where you get more damage, not by getting more delve or anything. You also get ranged specnukes and pbae in same line, no other pbae-class gets specnukes except eldies afaik.

You get more spec damage-spells/line, not way higher damage on each spell.

And saracen as elementalist...sure...but can you name a few non-casterclasses that group in albion that usually are saracens?
I cant think of (m)any, so I dont see why a saracen wouldnt get targetted, if the reason for avas being targetted is that they always are casters.

 

[pitspawn]

All those different ways of doing damage are not as great as they sound ...

Spec Ice Snare - Snare effect is less than hib mage equivilant and does mediocre damage.
Spec Bolt and Base bolts for pyro/fire - Bolts have a niche use, its bad to bolt anything with a shield larger than small. You cant bolt anything that is in melee, and bolts have a long timer on them plus they miss a lot more than DDs get resisted and AF weakens them as well as heat resist.
AE DD with cold debuff - Does mediocre damage and the debuff is minimal. Plus its a 4.0s cast time in this patch.
AE DD in pyro - Spec 44 so it gets resisted every so often. I normally dont hit anything for more than 200 at its epicenter and ofc has a slow cast time.

Being a saracen wiz would be nice, people would still target the avalonians first so anything is a plus.

 

[noaim]

Originally posted by pitspawn
All those different ways of doing damage are not as great as they sound ...

Spec Ice Snare - Snare effect is less than hib mage equivilant and does mediocre damage.
Spec Bolt and Base bolts for pyro/fire - Bolts have a niche use, its bad to bolt anything with a shield larger than small. You cant bolt anything that is in melee, and bolts have a long timer on them plus they miss a lot more than DDs get resisted and AF weakens them as well as heat resist.
AE DD with cold debuff - Does mediocre damage and the debuff is minimal. Plus its a 4.0s cast time in this patch.
AE DD in pyro - Spec 44 so it gets resisted every so often. I normally dont hit anything for more than 200 at its epicenter and ofc has a slow cast time.

Being a saracen wiz would be nice, people would still target the avalonians first so anything is a plus.

Ok, all spells a wizard have is total fucking crap, they are good for nothing and the other realms casters own em BY FAR both in damage and utility no matter how they spec. Thats what you will say, no matter what anyone says to you. And yet you have two wizards. Now tell me why a saracen should be better wizzie based on this argument.

Originally posted by pitspawn
Nowhere in my post did i say avalonians were too tall, i said they were a target. This is simply because there is no sense in making a avalonian tank/support char. You could say well why choose avalonian then, well its simply because we either get briton (who is lacking in both dex AND int) or avalonian (who has both but is a massive target) I would love to see saracen opened up for elementalists.

Originally posted by pitspawn
Being a saracen wiz would be nice, people would still target the avalonians first so anything is a plus.

Ok. May I ask how many casters you plan on running in each group? And you think they should make a change that makes the other casters die before elementalists do? What exactly would that accomplish? That was most likely the dumbest argument I ever heard, since not only is it ridicilous, its wrong too. I dont think many MA´s would run extra far to kill an avalonian staffuser over a saracen staffuser. I know I wouldnt, when it comes to casters, just kill the closest first, since they go down in a sec anyways.

 

[pitspawn]

Ok, all spells a wizard have is total fucking crap, they are good for nothing and the other realms casters own em BY FAR both in damage and utility no matter how they spec. Thats what you will say, no matter what anyone says to you. And yet you have two wizards. Now tell me why a saracen should be better wizzie based on this argument.

Yes your just as stubborn as me neglecting how runemasters get runspeed, pbt, nearsight, insta str and dex debuffs, tri elemental debuffs, gtaoe, aoe dd, spec dd, base dd, spec bolt, base bolt, nukes, root, damage add, ae snare, single snare and the ability to choose from 3 races which btw no other pure caster in the game gets. IMO runemasters are probably the second best caster to play in this game (chanters being top)

Ok. May I ask how many casters you plan on running in each group? And you think they should make a change that makes the other casters die before elementalists do? What exactly would that accomplish? That was most likely the dumbest argument I ever heard, since not only is it ridicilous, its wrong too. I dont think many MA´s would run extra far to kill an avalonian staffuser over a saracen staffuser. I know I wouldnt, when it comes to casters, just kill the closest first, since they go down in a sec anyways.

There has been times when ive been in a caster group and the enemy will ignore the icconu sorc, ignore the saracen caba, ignore the briton ice wiz and go straight for me. Because im avalonian. But i dont want to just role a saracen for loosing being a target, id like to have high dex. Getting spells off faster is often better than doing more damage per spell. This is especially the case when you got a single tank rushing you and you need to root him asap.

I dont think wizards are totally useless far from it, wouldnt have rolled 2 if i did. I do however think that they are lacking something when compared to other classes. They DO need some love, and we know they do even mythic have admitted that there is a problem.

 

[hiban]

The so called utility wizards lack, (and rms get) can be seen on cabalists and theurgs instead (insta dex and str debuff (WOW!), single root, pbt, run speed, debuff for baseline nuke and nearsight. You want that removed from cabalists and theurgists? (Would like to see you discuss that with them) Or do you want that to wizards as well?

 

[noaim]

Yes your just as stubborn as me neglecting how runemasters get runspeed, pbt, nearsight, insta str and dex debuffs, tri elemental debuffs, gtaoe, aoe dd, spec dd, base dd, spec bolt, base bolt, nukes, root, damage add, ae snare, single snare and the ability to choose from 3 races which btw no other pure caster in the game gets.

Wizards gets 2 specbolts, ae dd, pbae, ae colddebuff dd, snarenuke, colddeuffnuke, hard specnuke, dot, damageadd, damageshield, basebolt, ae dd with snare, ae root, gtae, dot, base dd, singletarget root. And what do you mean with pure caster? Mentalist aint a pure caster? What about bonedancers? Cabalist? Sorc? Or those aint pure casters because they got/can get a pet?

You get either pbae+spec nukes, or bolts+specnukes, or you spec earth, which I already said I agree looks a bit boring to spec.
No RM-spec will give you specnukes+bolt and RM´s dont have pbae. If you wanted pbt and speed, you could have rolled a theurgist instead. Now you rolled a wizard and got pbae+specnukes or specnukes+bolts, or you specced earth, and then I can see why you whine.

 

[pitspawn]

Why do we have to keep every unique spell under one spec line under one class?

Its not really a problem on hib/mid because the lower class count but when alb have 14 different classes the spell variation gets diluted and each classes utilty suffers.

 

[hiban]

Alb got 1 class more than hib. The only really unique class that diffs is necros. And what they have is powertap and power transfer (and ofc shield debuff and shit, but not counting that). 2 spells that none of the other 2 realms has. (remove necro, and you will have the same number of chars and same spells in both alb and hib.) All (most) other spells can be found in mid or hib as well.

 

[Xethron]

Sorry this is a little mashed but I wrote it at the end of the day before I went home from work and this was not conducive to good English ;-]

Either, allow Albion to have 10 in a fg so that we can get all the utility that you have in far fewer classes or give doubling up of some of them on some chars/specs so that viable spec options offer lots more self/grp utility that we can get into 8 slots now, as it has been said over and over we have utility spread over different classes and worse different specs in those classes and have difficulty to compete in some situations as some useful tools have to be left out to leave room for classes that can do damage



Little thought while I am here about elementalist race choices I would rather see messed up Avalonian base stats changed than allowing Saracens to be elementelists

1) I would like to see the 70Qui changed to 70dex for several reasons
OR
2) I would be nice to allow Avalonians to be friars:

(1)

- Qui effects swing speed and evade, Avalonians can’t be a class that evades anyway and really does not help very much in the classes they can be currently

- Dex is useful across the board:

Cab/Theurg/Wiz/Sorc/ - better cast speed
Cleric - give a higher DEX race option
Paly - better blocking (though Saracen still better STR/CON and DEX
Arms – as above

- before anyone says that having 45CON 80INT AND 70DEX is unfair I would challenge that 90% of Avalonians are casters and they were designed to be a good casting race and they darn well should have some of the best stats for it as their race is a big target and it is a trade off between performance and life expectancy

- elves make OK nightshades and rangers and arguably good champs so defiantly not always casters
- luris make good shades and rangers and having a tank hybrid that can slam or hit reasonably hard and block like crazy surely cant be a bad thing
Kobies have excellent savage stats arguably better than valkyn’s, they make good shamies and hunters/SBs
- Avalonians…



(2)

friars get evade IV and would be a class that would actually befit from high Qui as no other Alb race have >60Qui
- giving a none caster class that was not immediately gimped by being an Avalonian would help current players as blurs the easy ID of Avalonians as always being casters/soft targets

Brit CON60 DEX60 QUI60
Ava CON45 DEX60 QUI70

- as staff damage is modified by DEX only having 45str is not an issue for friars as it does nothing for them




A closing thought, originally QUI was going to be the modifier for cast speed until they changed that during beta as gaining 15 by L50 really did not improve speed by very much and there is no base Qui buff so it was changed to DEX.

Elfs/Luri/Kobie/Ava all were meant to be natural casters and have high DEX/INT/QUI (combination of) and Ava having 70Qui is an artefact of this but when they changed the stat for cast speed altering this to 70Dex was overlooked and would be very welcome change

- would benefit all current Avalonian players rather than giving them a hard choice to continue or re-roll as another race

 

[hiban]

Afaik friars actually get evade 5

Letting avalonians be friars:

More quick: Hard cap on quickness is at 250 . Lets say you put 10 points in quick at start (as briton) 70 (starter stat)+75 (sced equip) +80 (from the self dex/quick buff. Its +69 stat, but delves for more. Should be around 80-ish or so, depending on how high you take enhancement)
70+75+80=225. Thats not VERY far from the 250 quickness cap.
As an avalonian, u miss out 15 points of constitution at the start. 15 cons is more important than 10 points in quickness.

As for the "luring ppl into that avalionians can be friars as well, so they might not attack, and that would give the actual avalonian casters a chance to nuke"-thing: Both friars and casters use robes and staves. I (as must ppl i assume) would definately attack an avalonian in robe, even if i knew he COULD be a friar. Robe and staff draws attention. If its a friar: Im interrupting a possible healer and lifesaver for the opponents. If its a caster: Im interrupting a possible realm mate-killer.

And yeah, replace their quickness with their dex and vice versa

 

[Xethron]

your right about evaid V looked it up just now my mistake, as I put on the top of my post wrote it in a bit of a hurry before I left work from memory

I still think it would be good to have a second race option for friars and that of all the classes the some what querky Ava starting stats would make an ok friar rather than a gimped anything else other than a caster

swaping DEX/Qui would be great especally for leveling, it's quite noticable the difference on cast speed then, with stats raising and +dex on items later it is less so but still would be nice and I would still welcome it

and btw I don't wear a robe anymore ;-] and until I start giveing support classes the 'attention' they require <<< ooh big orange glowing hands >>> I do go unnoticed more often than not

 

[Arkian]

For all you people who are so absolutely determined to keep the view that wizzies are fine:

From Mythic themselves

I think you hit on the key here. Reduntant damage isn't helpful. Wizards as a class don't have the utility of other classes yet their damage isn't markedly higher then other classes. Solving this is going to take some thought. Increasing damage can't be the answer. Increasing utility may not be the answer either. What I hope we can look into is the possibility of options that allow the wizard to do what they do well in more situations.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter jack all whether you or I think that wizzies are fine/not fine, Mythic decide and damn us all anyways.

 

[corentmm]

A friar is designed (well I say designed but it has more been cobbled together) around:
1) Being a Briton
2) Having Mythic screw their stats up and subsequent compensation for it.

It would have been a lot more logical to let friars raise a more useful stat as they level than allowing a new race. But...what's done is done.

In particular the extra 10 qui would definately not offset the -15 con for me - not much good evading more if you die quicker (and you can't evade spells).

 

[hiban]

Originally posted by corentmm
Having Mythic screw their stats up and subsequent compensation for it.

Yeah, by giving them a selfbuff, that delves for MUCH more than any auto training in a baseline stat would give. loads of ppl have whined alot about friars autotraining in str. (a stat which they have no use of, other than carrying loot) Would they be any happier if they replaced the training in str, with dex, and removed the dex/quick selfbuff they gave them as a compensation for the "big mistake"? I wouldnt.
A friar autotrains 15 points of strength from level 5 to 50. Their self d/q has a raw value of 69 (should delve for like 75 or so, depending on how high u take enhancement)

 

[Xethron]

but then friars can not be further buffed by a cleric dex/qui or dare I sat the filthy word BB

self buffed vs unbuffed friar has an advantage as they will always be buffed

self buffed vs buffed a little probably even

self buffed vs buffbot swings the other way considerably and there is no way a friar can be buffed more and these day there almost everyone I meet is buffed to their hind teeth...

 

[hiban]

Originally posted by Xethron
but then friars can not be further buffed by a cleric dex/qui

Why should a cleric buff friar anyways, other than with the str/con buff? If you´re in group, you save the cleric from giving you that buff, and he can use that conc on someone else. A group speced cleric should have lower value specbuffs than your specbuffs most of thetime as well. If you would ever come into a group who have bbs with MotA 3 or whatever, u CAN cancel your selfbuff and use the clerics instead. Kinda like thanes and champs do

Originally posted by Xethron

self buffed vs buffbot swings the other way considerably and there is no way a friar can be buffed more

Still doesent take away the fact that you have buffed yourself fully (all but str/con buff, and that one can easily be fixed from any of the bbs at the keep?) A friar can be just as much buffed as any other class.