Why I'm leaving mid

[old.Atrox]

Yea I appoligize, we stealthers just suck and are totaly worthless to the realm, we should all go play D2 and be solo.
Let the Tanks and healers do it alone, let them sneak in to the sieged keep with the wood needed to keep the attackers outside for an extra5min til the big troop arrives, let them climb in inside and remove those repairing the doors, let them scout for hours in Odins, just to be wiped by a pre group whos out looing for scouts to remove them so that the main force can move along, without being noticed/counted/stalked.
oh and let them scout the keeps and the enemy frontiers, like to see 1 nonstealther scout an enemy area as good as a stealther without getting ganked by patrols.

 

[old.chesnor]

Atrox, you are obviously one of the 'decent' hunters out there if that is the stuff you do. /bows to Atrox

Sadly, most Hunters/SBs are solo gankers in RvR, interested only in personal glory and RP.

PS. I did a /who Healer and /who Shadowblade today at around 3pm gmt. There were 2x as many SB as Healers. I do acknowledge that some healers may be /anon. But does Midgard really need more scouts than healers ???

 

[old.Atrox]

No midgard have a serious lack off healers and shamans ( buffbot's not included )
I belive that is 1 of the reasons we perform so bad in standard RvR

thou I've seen alot of CC healers lately, so maybe we will be better later on

oh and btw IMO those thing I listen b4 were something I choose to do when I choose to make a rouge, same as rezzing is something I choose if I make a healer/shaman.

 

[Killgorde]

Err Guys???

About time time Middies stopped slagging each others classes off don't you think?

In the "bigger picture" of RvR - by which I don't mean emain zerging, but well planned operations with a genuine objective (something maybe most Middies don'y really have any interest in, admittedly) all classes are invaluable.

There will always be solo RP whores who's interest is their own realm rank and not working in a team environment. I have, since beta, witnessed as many if not more skalds of this ilk as sb's/hunters. Those who only group in pairs or small groups because of the diminishing return of RP by extending this.

What screws Emain up and sends everyone back to Huginfell more than anything else? One thing only (numbers aside)...bad intelligence. There are stealthers out there who are prepared to take time out to fill the rest of us in on enemy movements (/salutes Finster, Zilly, Atrox and the others) and there are those who's sole interest is self-centred and who can't be arsed to give good recon for the benefit of the rest of peeps in emain.

By the same token there are healers who link up with one skald in a duet or maybe a trio as a high speed mezz-stun-gank outfit. Are they any different? How many times have you seen these small hitsquads zooming off to AMG from the TK without offering you a chance to group? You all know who they are so no names mentioned (although its a bloody long list).

What makes me laugh is the queue of all classes buying tickets to Emain when there are death messages on your own doorstep. Or is the lure of RP in Emain a much higher priority than taking care of Middies juniors? Any invader grey ganking junior exp'ers would have a life expectancy of about 2 minutes if any of you actually gave a toss about anything other than your own self-gratification. It's just odd that it seems to be the same people every time out there at the crabs and crossroads taking care of them...and the same people sitting on their arses waiting to port while this is going on.

Back to the original post. It does piss me off that Hunters/SB's cant get grouped for exp. Because like healers they are an invaluable weapon at higher levels in RvR (those that are willing to work in a team environment)...as anyone who has led a large raid can testify. Ok...admittedly not the Emain RP gravy train most of you seem to enjoy rather than any offensive/defensive operation that has any significance in the "bigger picture." But then, as stated above, there are peeps of all other classes who offer diddlysquat to their fellow Middies when they take up RvR as their main profession.

If Middies actually gave a moments thought to cutting out all the "class discrimination" bollocks both in PvE and RvR as posted elsewhere in this thread, and instead decided to work together as a cohesive fighting force incorporating the talents of all classes, the world would be a better place. Sorry Scooby m8, but I'm afraid to say I won't hold my breath

 

[old.Etoand]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
PS. I did a /who Healer and /who Shadowblade today at around 3pm gmt. There were 2x as many SB as Healers. I do acknowledge that some healers may be /anon. But does Midgard really need more scouts than healers ???

Maybe not, but what can anyone do about this? Are we going to start telling people what classes they can and can't roll? Also, and I think this is a point many overlook, not everyone is capable of playing every class. Me, I've tried to play healers before and basically I suck at it. Group with one of my many healers in the past and the only thing it got you was a false sense of security. I think it takes a special kind of mentality to play one, and it's not one that many people in Midgard have.

To all those who can do it (kudos out to Vell here, as the healer I had most experience with) I salute you.

 

[old.Runolas]

Killgorde a great post with some very good points that ppl like, Chesnor and Estate should read, not only 1 time, but perhaps 2-3 times, if they still don’t get it…they never will.

I have never been a rp-farmer, probably never will either, as I put more into helping my guild and the Realm. I also think that hunting invaders in Yggdra and Uppland are more fun, and the rp is not that bad either. Just the other day I smacked down Xero (lvl 50 Ranger) in Uppland for 595rp. He got away the first time, but just as I was about to give up, he popped up on crossroads ganking grey (witch I have never done except for emain).

 

[old.chesnor]

My orignal point was that people who roll PvE unfriendly chars (presumably as rogues are the best soloers in RvR?) can't then whine about the level grind and the difficulty of getting groups. I tried to explain why rogues are not good PvE chars. I never 'slagged them off', as they are clearly great chars to RvR with.

Killgordes post amuses me, because its ideals are so commendable, but sadly just not reality. People are generally selfish in this game (I've witnessed countless arguments about drops/xp/rp/quest mobs etc..etc..). Perhaps Killg should roll an alt, and see how the composition of classes in the realm has changed since his thane was lvl10. Warriors are like rocking horse sh*t, there are very few Healers and Shammys but DO NOT FEAR, we have many stealthers who will scout keeps for us all in 40lvls time when we have 3 months /played !!!!

Delete your rogues, roll Healers....do the realm a real favour.

 

[Killgorde]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
My orignal point was that people who roll PvE unfriendly chars (presumably as rogues are the best soloers in RvR?) can't then whine about the level grind and the difficulty of getting groups. I tried to explain why rogues are not good PvE chars. I never 'slagged them off', as they are clearly great chars to RvR with.

Killgordes post amuses me, because its ideals are so commendable, but sadly just not reality. People are generally selfish in this game (I've witnessed countless arguments about drops/xp/rp/quest mobs etc..etc..). Perhaps Killg should roll an alt, and see how the composition of classes in the realm has changed since his thane was lvl10. Warriors are like rocking horse sh*t, there are very few Healers and Shammys but DO NOT FEAR, we have many stealthers who will scout keeps for us all in 40lvls time when we have 3 months /played !!!!

Delete your rogues, roll Healers....do the realm a real favour.

Err...healer crisis? More like stealther/runie crisis . Cutting Edge has 14 members of which 3 are LvL50 Healers and 2 are LvL50 Shammies. We have Zilly as our resident recon, and welcome the recent addition of Munchkin (RM). Taking a keep with 7 peeps last night (and no fend as Munch was out of the frame) is what we are about...working as a team to see what can be achieved.

But like you say, Ches, peeps are generally selfish (just glad this is a character trait missing in CE)...my point is that this selfishness is not the sole domain of stealthers but of peeps in all classes. So I think its a bit unfair to single them out.

 

[old.Ebeneezer]

Who is the other lvl 50 shammie?

 

[Killgorde]

Originally posted by old.Ebeneezer
Who is the other lvl 50 shammie?

Lol..ok 48 as and when he went on three weeks holiday And apologies to Darkheart who is working such punishing hours at the moment RL he is hardly ever online, the poor sod.

If there is a suggestion that there is a shortage of healers/shammies with respect to rezzing in Emain thats one thing.

If, however the shortage is the primary cause of losing the popular (but incredibly boring - who in their right mind wants to roll a healer just to take part in these?) mezz/stun Emain zerging then all I say is adjust your tactics accordingly. And get the stealthers out there involved and co-ordinated in double teaming the opposition mezzers. If Middies worked more as a single team rather than individuals/small groups with their own agendas you could adapt to any situation (numbers excluded) and win with initiative. Wishful thinking I know...

Playing a competent healer takes a special breed which I have a great deal of admiration and respect for (rather like the crazy sods who decide to choose goalkeeping as a proffession), but all classes deserve equal respect.

 

[Garnet]

Originally posted by old.chesnor


Delete your rogues, roll Healers....do the realm a real favour.

It would be nice if we had more healers but the problem with them is that in RVR they r so boring due to their lack of offensive spells. IMO I hardly go to RVR as i find it boring with my class i just sit at gna faste and craft. Lucky I am raising alts to RVR with.

 

[old.Runolas]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
My orignal point was that people who roll PvE unfriendly chars (presumably as rogues are the best soloers in RvR?) can't then whine about the level grind and the difficulty of getting groups. I tried to explain why rogues are not good PvE chars. I never 'slagged them off', as they are clearly great chars to RvR with.

Killgordes post amuses me, because its ideals are so commendable, but sadly just not reality. People are generally selfish in this game (I've witnessed countless arguments about drops/xp/rp/quest mobs etc..etc..). Perhaps Killg should roll an alt, and see how the composition of classes in the realm has changed since his thane was lvl10. Warriors are like rocking horse sh*t, there are very few Healers and Shammys but DO NOT FEAR, we have many stealthers who will scout keeps for us all in 40lvls time when we have 3 months /played !!!!

Delete your rogues, roll Healers....do the realm a real favour.

Chesnor you clearly stated your opinion on SB/Hunter in PvE, and to you they suck. The thing is that SB/Hunter don’t suck in PvE, it’s only ppl like you who THINK they suck that really makes them suck…lol, if you see were I’m getting at.

Our chars are great fun in RvR, but that doesn’t mean we all are running around to become the uber rp-farmer. I didn’t know that my SB was good for RvR or hard to lvl when I started out, I just liked sneaky bit.

Hmm…I know a lot of Healer/Shamans that make SB/Hunters alts…why is that?


.

 

[infozwerg]

Estat it seems you know little or nothing about RVR.

state your RP here m8 then we talk about who knows something about rvr.

I´m sure you´re higher leveld then I am

yes i am.

If you don´t care about for instance taking out the mages then who do you think is mezzing everybody in your group?

1. its a sorceror or a bard. bards are not casters and solo sb/hunters dont attack bards.
2. sorcerors are casters, but solo sb/hunters dont attack sorcerors either. when you do a bit of rvr youll know why.

so youre argument was that solo hunters/sb help groups by taking out the ae mezzing classes. this is wrong, they dont. even if they would, the mezzer is ressed 5 sek after he dies and mezz doesnt care bout resssickness.

Yes he might be up after a little while or he might not anyhow he will have rez sickness and can only do half damage.

this is true. nevertheless by making a few casters resssick youll dont win any skirmish.

By war of the stealthers that include the info you and everyone else gets about incoming Relic raids for instance,

the only stealther that is good at getting warnings about relic raid are minstrels. this is not because of their stealth, but because of their speed.

Now how fun is it to get to know about that when they are running back with the relic. that you only get to know about it, cuz you read that little msg saying that Midgards strenght relic has been removed.....?

if you can give me one example of a relic attempt that was spotted from a stealther, ill may discuss this point. state date and the name of the charakter that spottet the invading army.

Right now I think we got too few level 50 stealthers to scout properly.

gimme a hint why you need to be lvl 50 to scout.

Don't insult my intelligence with all this 'your realm needs scouts' rubbish.

and the quote of the day award goes to chesnor.

 

[old.Atrox]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Estat it seems you know little or nothing about RVR.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


state your RP here m8 then we talk about who knows something about rvr.
------------------------
ROFLMAO
The Realm points only tells ppl how uber Rp farmer you are, not your knowledge of RvR tactics etc
------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now how fun is it to get to know about that when they are running back with the relic. that you only get to know about it, cuz you read that little msg saying that Midgards strenght relic has been removed.....?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


if you can give me one example of a relic attempt that was spotted from a stealther, ill may discuss this point. state date and the name of the charakter that spottet the invading army.
------------------------

I have spotted several ordinary Keepraiding armys and Relic armys in Odins while I've been scouting there, and I've succesfully stalked them and given info about locations and possible targets to the Midgard defence.
------------------------

Stealthers are not the soultion in RvR, Coop are the solution, useing our forces in the right way at the right time, thats what we need to do, takeing out mages/archers is the stealthers job, causeing chaose and opening to the main force to charge are stealthers primary job aswell, thou we dont use that ability atm.

 

[-Samma-]

Well I don´t think I´ll have to answere that Estat. Atrox pretty much answered it for me.

Other then YES I have played alot of other games before this one. Strategic aswell as RPG and others.

I have nothing more to add atm thx to Atrox for the explanation


Samma Irontree- The Dark Disciples
Lvl 44 Hunter

 

[old.Runolas]

Estate you are a fxxking moron simple as thatuke:...it's a bit rude, but it's the fact.

Most relic raids have been reported by Hunters and SB in Odins. Atrox is one of them, and he as done it many time. I don't know what goes on in your alliance, but in ours most information on enemy movements comes from rouges. One exception is Ruathian who is always spending a lot of time hunting invaders in Yggdra and Uppland, and thus reporting this on /as.

 

[infozwerg]

Estate you are a fxxking moron simple as thatuke:...it's a bit rude, but it's the fact.

f-words and smilies dont count as arguments, you know.

 

[old.Runolas]

Originally posted by infozwerg


f-words and smilies dont count as arguments, you know.

Jepp, I know that, but there comes a time when arguing any further has no point. If you still haven’t understood a thing of what ppl are trying to tell you, you will never get it either. You have clearly stated what you think of rouge classes, and to you they are useless in both PvE and RvR.

I just wonder what part of teamwork don’t you understand? If you think we are gonna do any good in RvR with no rouges around, think again, you will be like an army without eyes, you will suck. There are a lot of things you will never understand until you actually played a rouge. From what I can read you are more concerned with your own RR than the better good of the realm.

Your arguments are so far fetched, and without any sense of reality. There will always be some players that only play for them self, but I think you are generalizing a bit too much about rouge classes. The best scouts in this game are rouges, and they for sure are doing their job. Were you got the impression that they don’t is beyond me. I have for sure scouted a lot more than you will ever do. If you think mages etc are up and running after 60sec you really don’t know shit. Have you ever been inside a keep if there are several assassins around? Well I have knocked down several mages inside a keep, and when they get rezzed I’ll knock them down one more time. Emain, what do you think goes on ?. You’ll find Hunters/SB reporting inc. numbers and killing off ppl on their way. They are not only reporting enemy movements, but they are also weakening them by killing weaker targets. If you think all are rezzed…think again, because their not. I haven’t seen you around taking care of enemy invaders in Yggdra or Uppland ganking lower lvl’s, and I bet you don’t even care.

I just wonder if you or Chesnor have read any military/historical literature on the subject of warfare and the importance of combined-arms. This is a game, but still quite easy to take something from irl and put into context in the game. If you cannot grasp this, then I will urge you to read something about the subject, but if you are like 17 (and I think you are) then you will probably not be interested anyway.

 

[old.chesnor]

Runolas.

I don't recall I said rogues are useless in RvR. I tried to point out that rogues don't make good PvE chars, and I'll stick by that no matter what anyone else says thankyou.

Also, unless it has not met your attention, but both Estat and I play Healers, hardly a class best qualified to go hunting invaders in Yggdra or soloing anywhere else for that matter. You should try to read precisely what we have written, rather than what you think we have written. My point, which I'll reiterate for you, is that rogues that don't get grouped in PvE shouldn't really come here and whine. Everyone knows rogues get a tough time in PvE in Midgard, end of.

And you are right, I havn't read a great deal of military history (like it freakin well matters for DAOC fs) but I know enough to realise that in this game, 10ish well positioned coordinated scouts could cover all 3 frontiers.

 

[old.Runolas]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
I

Firstly, although Hunters and especially Shadowblades can outdamage tanks, it really isn't good news in a PvE group for rogues to be doing that. Healers will struggle to heal rogues when they are aggroed by purple mobs.

Bottom line.......Stealthers are built for RP farming and griefing in the frontiers. Don't insult my intelligence with all this 'your realm needs scouts' rubbish. Any class can scout, and its not even level critical. Not only that, we only need a handful of strategically placed scouts and they can suicide when they've done their job to return to the real action.

Face it, most rogues are built with one object in mind.....GANKING

And you are right, I havn't read a great deal of military history (like it freakin well matters for DAOC fs) but I know enough to realise that in this game, 10ish well positioned coordinated scouts could cover the all 3 frontiers.

You wrote this Chesnor

I find myself out-damaging the tanks most of the time, but still I don't get aggro. That is because I know how to play my SB in a grp, and play with good tanks. I can't recall any healer struggling to heal me.

Your post on what SB/Hunters are made for...clearly state that these classes are useless to the realm. They are there only to the “gankers” and rp-farmers.

If you haven't read any...read some, then comeback and we can continue our discution (seems my age assumption was “bulls eye”). If zerging in Emain is RvR to you, it's not that impotant, but if RvR is more in the direction of what Killgorde was trying to tell you...it will matter.

Why do I bother commenting on this issue...hmm.…I have no trouble finding grp's. I just get annoyed when ppl THINK they know how rouges work and really don’t…that’s why

 

[old.chesnor]

Why do you have to constantly insult me on these boards Runolas. Just because we can't agree on a certain issue doesn't mean I expect to be abused about my age (you are way out btw fella).

Look up the word most in your dictionary. I use it throughout my diatribes. I have played this game plenty, and know many fine Shadowblades and Hunters, but I know more griefers and glory seekers. End of.

 

[old.Runolas]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
Why do you have to constantly insult me on these boards Runolas. Just because we can't agree on a certain issue doesn't mean I expect to be abused about my age (you are way out btw fella).

Look up the word most in your dictionary. I use it throughout my diatribes. I have played this game plenty, and know many fine Shadowblades and Hunters, but I know more griefers and glory seekers. End of.

Well, I’m only trying to tell you that as you grow older you will see things differently. I’m not trying to insult you, but when you stick your head out like you do, your asking for it.

This post started out with a poor guy tired of getting rejected from grp’s, because he happened to choose a Hunter. You and Estate go at it like “mister know it all” and flame the hole class of rouges as bad chars for PvE and filled with ppl that are only seeking their “ganking-heaven”.

I know a lot of rouges and only a small handful are “griefers and glory seekers”. Some are rp-farmers and some are xp-whores, but you cannot point at one class.

Btw, why do you think that a healer has nothing to do with invaders in Yggdra/Uppland?

 

[old.chesnor]

lol @ Runolas...

Well, I’m only trying to tell you that as you grow older you will see things differently.

Firstly, grats on the "Most Patronising Introduction to a Post Award". You have precisely no idea how old I am, however I imagine I am considerably older than you are, and then some. I may speak crap alot on these boards (as is my right) and occasionally swear, but I rarely descend to your 'childish' levels of personal abuse and swearing.

I know a lot of rouges and only a small handful are “griefers and glory seekers”. Some are rp-farmers and some are xp-whores, but you cannot point at one class.

Well, lets agree to differ on this point. I know some decent and selfless rogues. But I know more (and have seen the bahaviour of more) who are as I described. I am not saying ALL rogues are griefers/gankers. Nor am I saying ALL griefers/gankers are rogues. Just that these classes attract griefers like bees to a honeypot.

Btw, why do you think that a healer has nothing to do with invaders in Yggdra/Uppland?

Invaders in our frontiers are the business of the entire realm. My point was that only the most gung-ho and idiotic Healer would expect to clear Yggdra of the stealthers that camp our realm gates. Some classes are made for ganking, Healers aren't, that is all I meant.

 

[old.Atrox]

Chesnor not only Stealther come to our frontiers, I strugle almost everyday with tank classes that invade, groups that invades, in these situations a healer with some Crowd Control are very good to have.

and about greifers/rpwhores, look at the teleport, what classes stays there when a lowlvl gets ganked ? and what classes run out ?

and about your nonstealth scouts, yes ofcourse nonstealthers can scout the frontiers, skalds are perfect for this, thou they die quickly, and 3 stealthers can do the same job as your 10 scouts, 2 stay at the Portalkeeps, 1 stalks the army.

Not joining classes that dont provide you with something are pretty selfish, I dont say that you should risk your groups functionality just so you can join stealthers, but they way you put it you sound like a xpwhore ( no offence ), and that does not contribute anything to the realm, atleast a rpwhore makes things easier for the rest of us. so rouges = worthless for the xpwhores, and xpwhores = worthless to the realm.

 

[old.chesnor]

Well, I don't want to argue with/provoke you anymore. I've had my fun with this thread, we are just going over old ground now with your assumptions about me.

Yes, I admit it.

I AM TEH 17YR OLD XP WHORE.

 

[old.Runolas]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
lol @ Runolas...

You have precisely no idea how old I am, however I imagine I am considerably older than you are, and then some. I may speak crap alot on these boards (as is my right) and occasionally swear, but I rarely descend to your 'childish' levels of personal abuse and swearing.

Invaders in our frontiers are the business of the entire realm. My point was that only the most gung-ho and idiotic Healer would expect to clear Yggdra of the stealthers that camp our realm gates. Some classes are made for ganking, Healers aren't, that is all I meant.

Easier to click on my profile than imagine.

Yeah, I came down hard on both you and Estate, but can't you even stop to figure out why? You talk crap, and simply have no clue what you are talking about. You are right I don't now how old you are, but when you even fail to see the the importance of teamwork, your "I know how a SB/Hunter works in grp's and RvR", and the fact that all realms needs all classes to be effective in RvR, then one can only start to wonder - at least I could understand why. When it comes to my swearing...could be we scandinavians swear more...

If you ever bothered to look after the lower lvl's you would know that invaders in the frontiers are not just stealthers, but about 40-50% non stealthers. I can't remember seeing either you or Estate around when we needed you, but I know a lot of others like Garnet, Leel etc. The funny thing is that they all seem to agree that rouges are an important class for RvR (I'm not talking Emain zerging), and you don't. The simple fact is that very few reaches lvl 40+.

I have about 6 rouges in FOM that are lvl 40+ (lost count of all I've meet) and none fits your description. Outside FOM all nice ppl, but some "bad apples" off cours. I have meet more XP/RP horney Skalds than rouges, but that probably because a lot of ppl play them.

 

[old.Runolas]

Originally posted by old.chesnor
Well, I don't want to argue with/provoke you anymore. I've had my fun with this thread, we are just going over old ground now with your assumptions about me.

Yes, I admit it.

I AM TEH 17YR OLD XP WHORE.

hehe finaly a breakthrough...

 

[infozwerg]

I can't remember seeing either you or Estate around when we needed you, but I know a lot of others like Garnet, Leel etc. The funny thing is that they all seem to agree that rouges are an important class for RvR (I'm not talking Emain zerging), and you don't.

I consider that sentence an absolute "classic". Id love to have a professional logician point out the logical fallacies, would be funny even without pakistani milkmen.

for the record:

hunters and shadowblades are "rogue". "rouge" is french for red.

 

[old.chesnor]

I was running around defending Mid/Excal from invaders when Runolas was killing crabs on Atla beach

You have no idea how much RP Chesnor had when I deleted, I was at Bledmeer when we infamously tried to take it. I was on the first succesful relic raid the Middies did. I was in and RvRed for Nolby Pride and Nazgul.

Runolas, you Sir, are an idiot.

 

[-Samma-]

Chesnor you wrote earlier that only 10 is needed to scout the area for incoming invaders. Personally I think that might be a low number. Because it would be great to have many zones of scouting that they have to pass before even reaching the relic.

If they are spotted very early then we will be able to get alot of people inside the relic keep before they get too it. That would make it ALOT tougher then if they are ambushed from behind by alot of mids. If we can spot em very early and get the information to the people who needs it then Albs and Hibs taking one of our relics would be almost impossible. Besides those "10 people" (or what ever) scouting the area need replacements because they most certainly won´t be scouting those areas 24/7.

Maybe we never can get it scouted 24/7 but as close to it as possible would be nice.

You are right about some hunters and SB´s being lamers (loot whores or what ever), I´ve met some of em. But that is ofcourse not class restricted, you´ll find them in any class (and pretty much in any game, unless single player and ofcourse you´re not one). However more good Hunters/SB´s are without a doubt needed. I like getting realm points just like anyone else... a couple of extra skill points is very nice, (I got nothing against teaming either, actually I enjoy teaming). But I am gonna help scouting once I reach lvl 50 wich I hope to be soon.

PS it should be taken into consideration that some people have less opportunity to play alot. So therefor they might have problems helping to scout (wich takes a lot of time and have to take alot of time).


Samma Irontree- The Dark Disciples
Lvl 45 Hunter