Whats the point of rangers now?

[Haldar]

1 Funny how you menion try I suppose when the hunter comes out of the fz he/she just stands there and doesnt do anything, while you try to kill the pet. No way in hell i'd kill it before the fz runs out. Even if you do the hunter will shoot you first so basically you used your own fz against you.
2 Yeah everyone has a ml10 belt in their template, not to mention its possibly the hardest item to get.
3. you can still shoot arrows as an hybrid. Many rangers are hybrids too btw.

Paper DAoC rules btw.

1. 'try' bcoz i've never been on ranger's side or pet's side of this fight. i am fzed hunter when it happens. and yes, being hybrid spec (40 bow) with 10% resist pierce it suit - i _will_ shoot. but not every hunter has decent bow spec now. 50 sw/41 bc/ gimp bow are common.
2. /shrug i am telling u about an option. ur choice - accept it or reject.
3. i know.

Seriously, rangers are crap atm and even without a pet i'm pretty sure that in melee the hunter will do far more dmg then a ranger. Then again they got a pet so it's not even a question/issue.

quick and dirty.

hunter: 39+15 wpn.
ranger: 44 cd.

1. base unstyled dps - in 'units':
hunter: 100+10+(0.5*54) = 137
ranger: 100+ 25+0.68*59 = 165.12

so - unstyled ranger >> unstyled hunter.

2. styles. assuming style dmg = 50% of base dmg (reasonably correct assumption)

hunter dps: 137*1.5 = 205.5
ranger dps (styled dmg added to MH only): 100*1.5 + 25+0.68*59 = 215.12

so ranger styled dps > hunter styled dps.

3. adding hunter 6% WS bonus. assuming it is directly transferred to dmg.
so - hunter dps: 205.5*1.06 = 217.83 - now it becomes greater than ranger's

4. adjust for wpn speed bonus. slower wpns provide more dps - extra 3% for 1 sec of delay.
assuming 4.0 delay for ranger and 5.5 for hunter - hunter gains extra 4.5% of dps.

5. now we have to add some real things.
5.1 damage add. ranger wins here - over time his DA provides more extra dmg than hunter's - due to usually (not always) higher delve (46 bow) and 2 wpns (even with OH not firing every round)
5.2 armor tables. 5%. hunter cannot use spec crush wpns - rangers can use blades. sure, sure, it may be equaled out by leggies - which can be brought down by bot resists. but still 5% is 5%. fotm wpns - ml10 - are blades, not leggies.
5.3 i forgot what i've had here...but it was some adjustments for dmg variance caused by not comp 51 spec for ranger, more adjustments on style GRs, even more on weaponstat attained....

all in all - it pretty evened out.

btw - ranger tl's own words - "our melee damage is virtually identical until pet comes into equation" - can be found in vn archives.

and yes - pet comes and barks and bites rangers down.

 

[Tuthmes]

quick and dirty.

hunter: 39+15 wpn.
ranger: 44 cd.

1. base unstyled dps - in 'units':
hunter: 100+10+(0.5*54) = 137
ranger: 100+ 25+0.68*59 = 165.12

so - unstyled ranger >> unstyled hunter.

2. styles. assuming style dmg = 50% of base dmg (reasonably correct assumption)

hunter dps: 137*1.5 = 205.5
ranger dps (styled dmg added to MH only): 100*1.5 + 25+0.68*59 = 215.12

so ranger styled dps > hunter styled dps.

3. adding hunter 6% WS bonus. assuming it is directly transferred to dmg.
so - hunter dps: 205.5*1.06 = 217.83 - now it becomes greater than ranger's

4. adjust for wpn speed bonus. slower wpns provide more dps - extra 3% for 1 sec of delay.
assuming 4.0 delay for ranger and 5.5 for hunter - hunter gains extra 4.5% of dps.

5. now we have to add some real things.
5.1 damage add. ranger wins here - over time his DA provides more extra dmg than hunter's - due to usually (not always) higher delve (46 bow) and 2 wpns (even with OH not firing every round)
5.2 armor tables. 5%. hunter cannot use spec crush wpns - rangers can use blades. sure, sure, it may be equaled out by leggies - which can be brought down by bot resists. but still 5% is 5%. fotm wpns - ml10 - are blades, not leggies.
5.3 i forgot what i've had here...but it was some adjustments for dmg variance caused by not comp 51 spec for ranger, more adjustments on style GRs, even more on weaponstat attained....

all in all - it pretty evened out.

btw - ranger tl's own words - "our melee damage is virtually identical until pet comes into equation" - can be found in vn archives.

and yes - pet comes and barks and bites rangers down.

44 spec point is way more then 39. Remember rangers need to spec cd AND blades/pierce to get decent dmg. Your math's may go for a rr10 ranger, but then again... And where's the celerity in your calculations?

Like I said paper DAoC is fun and I really don't care about DAoC math which fail 9/10 times anyways.

Anyways, nevermind the discussion: "our melee damage is virtually identical until pet comes into equation".

 

[BloodOmen]

Actually after playing my hunter on Ywain again (haven't played for ages) I think my ranger will do just fine, steer clear of the stealth zergs and hang about the keep takes and should roll RP's pretty easy.

My hunter was hitting people for huge damage must be lots of yanks still untemplated, good times ahead guys.

Yank rolling here we come

Don't build your hopes on yanks not being templated there isn't as many as you think anymore.

 

[LordjOX]

Indeed. Quite a broad generalization and horrible at that. With gear so accessible and easy to farm, even with overcamped spots - it lowers price and makes it more accessible even

Crafters being something quite alot of have, I'd rather see untemplated characters as an exception rather than the norm. But still, I've not played on Ywain as of yet so no idea how that aspect of RvR looks like.

Funny thing is americans/Ywain pop probably giggling at lolEU players transferring next month

 

[Haldar]

44 spec point is way more then 39. Remember rangers need to spec cd AND blades/pierce to get decent dmg.

i've chosen 39 and 44 bcoz those are spec lvls i'd run. evade chain stun/backstun on hunter -- with evade chain stun and comet for ranger.

And where's the celerity in your calculations?

Hm. i was wrong. There IS a point in adding celerity here.

It works like haste - reduces time between swings, and reduces styled part of dmg accordingly - so cele'ed swings have same styled dps, but higher base dps. This means - celerity have greater positive effect on char whose dmg is more 'base' and less 'styled'. IE - ranger (and all DWing classes), not hunter (and all 2h/s+s classes [upd: who spec styles. aug healer's +38% celerity translates directly to damage due to unstyled swings]).

yep, i am surprised with this result too.

Like I said paper DAoC is fun and I really don't care about DAoC math which fail 9/10 times anyways.

/shrug

 

[eble]

Well I can only speak for the hibs I kept killing with my hunter at Nottmore, these were where 2/3 fg's were attacking and they had horrible gear on, my hunter was hitting for 600 + made some good rp's

I'm not talking about the set grps, but probably more the semi zerg keep take guys.

 

[Sharkith]

So we are saying Rangers got screwed and the best way I can play is to zerg surf and kill and add on as many people as possible. Got that. Great.

 

[Garaen]

Do you need a buffbot to survive solo on American servers?

 

[LordjOX]

So we are saying Rangers got screwed and the best way I can play is to zerg surf and kill and add on as many people as possible. Got that. Great.

What were you hoping for?

Do you need a buffbot to survive solo on American servers?

I think so. The ghetto buffs given by the buff NPC don't really cap, plus you can't run with resists

 

[randomeclipse]

Do you need a buffbot to survive solo on American servers?

I think it helps if you want to pay for one, but on he flip side if you kill people with the standard NPC buffs the better you feel/are

 

[Aiteal]

Do you need a buffbot to survive solo on American servers?

On a ranger?
Well, if you are a sniper spec, npc buffs and self dex/qui puts you about 12 dex less than full buff bot buffs

Charplan DAoC-TB will let you work out stats with npc vs buff bot buffs taking into account self buffs etc
It's not a huge difference, but if you are gonna melee alot or even occasionaly, best to go for bot buffs

The best thing about the npc buffs is they don't drop when you LD

 

[LordjOX]

The best thing about the npc buffs is they don't drop when you LD

Hmm, neat. Do you ld alot on US servers though?

 

[Aiteal]

Hmm, neat. Do you ld alot on US servers though?

I did for about 2 weeks running
Then I figured out my wife was booting up her macbook with it's static IP adress on our wlan, which kicked me off every time

US servers are fine tbh

 

[Puppet]

i've chosen 39 and 44 bcoz those are spec lvls i'd run. evade chain stun/backstun on hunter -- with evade chain stun and comet for ranger.

Well, that makes sense, in the same way it makes sense a ranger with 44 CD and 50-51 Composite Weapon-spec should outmelee a hunter with only 39 Spear.

Hm. i was wrong. There IS a point in adding celerity here.

It works like haste - reduces time between swings, and reduces styled part of dmg accordingly - so cele'ed swings have same styled dps, but higher base dps. This means - celerity have greater positive effect on char whose dmg is more 'base' and less 'styled'. IE - ranger (and all DWing classes), not hunter (and all 2h/s+s classes [upd: who spec styles. aug healer's +38% celerity translates directly to damage due to unstyled swings]).

yep, i am surprised with this result too.



/shrug

I must admit I don't understand the formula's with 'units' in the previous reply from you, but both styled and unstyled DW always did more damage then 2H so I guess it boils down to Celerity. I'm pretty sure that Celerity is a bigger increase for 2H over DW simply because a 25% celerity (like on fsls) will overcap your speed (1.5 sec hardcap), wasting a part of the Celerity. Granted, I'm not up to latest stuff, I believe alot of people use crafted celerity which is only 17% (not sure) in which case it is a mood point since DW only barely caps with that.

(See: <News Team r2b> )

To put that in perspective: I'm dualwielding 2x 4.2 speed weapons.

4.2 speed MH / 4.2 speed OH (say 2x ML10 slashers)
250 Quickness
10% TOA Melee-speed
20% haste from buffbot

==> 1.87 sec swing speed, so I would need only 16% celerity to get down to 1.5 sec.

For the hunter, let us assume that he is also a ML10-geek and has a 5.8 spd spear

5.8 speed Spear (ML10 Spear?)
250 Quickness
10% TOA Melee-speed
20% haste from buffbot

==> 2.59 sec swing speed, so he would need 34% celerity to get down to 1.5 sec.

There is 1 more point to consider: While dualwielding gives you more procs from your own weapons, it also procs more on your enemies reactive procs. Since archers do not have poisons, I reckon 2H is favourable from that PoV as well.

 

[Haldar]

I must admit I don't understand the formula's with 'units' in the previous reply from you,

i've assumed that chars are using fictional wpns which normally produce exactly 100 dmg per swing. that's 'units'. And i've added from that - spec modifying dmg, styled/unstyled parts, etcetc.

I'm pretty sure that Celerity is a bigger increase for 2H over DW simply because a 25% celerity (like on fsls) will overcap your speed (1.5 sec hardcap), wasting a part of the Celerity

Yes, this is possible.

I believe alot of people use crafted celerity which is only 17% (not sure)

aye, it is 17%

While dualwielding gives you more procs from your own weapons, it also procs more on your enemies reactive procs. Since archers do not have poisons, I reckon 2H is favourable from that PoV as well.

That depends. If extra procs made by offhand produce greater effect (dmg-wise, or debuff, or whatever) than re-procs generated by extra hits on target's armor - then there IS a point of running dw in this case.

 

[Downanael]

I never imagined i would say this but they should bring old archery back,it had much more unique feeling than this "stealth-caster" they got going on now

 

[Aiteal]

I never imagined i would say this but they should bring old archery back,it had much more unique feeling than this "stealth-caster" they got going on now

I'm still double tapping my follow up shots

 

[Gahn]

It's fine as long as you wanna leech arpees.
Since on Ywain every fucking archer is out to leech arpees bar a very few, you are good to go and without any fucking remorse ^^

Ofc unless you leech off me

 

[Gahn]

I never imagined i would say this but they should bring old archery back,it had much more unique feeling than this "stealth-caster" they got going on now

Annnnnd wtf you hanging about dude?

 

[Downanael]

Annnnnd wtf you hanging about dude?

I liked old archery! somewhat... or maybe it's just nostalogia and green colored glasses

 

[randomeclipse]

Old Archery was and still is superior, end of.

 

[eble]

yeah to the ability to 'knock' the crit shot waiting for the right moment, thats what it was about.

I must have fired 1000's of arrows that hit bubbles, but just once and a while that caster had bubble down and boom 1200 damage, if he didn't run fast he was dead on the follow up.

same goes when running MOS5 and 3 shotting SB's/Infils the points in MOS was worth the advantage, if the got the drop on me I died so I always thought it was fair enough, In the open I would win on a bridge was another matter or keep etc.

 

[eble]

damn that restricted edit button!

anyway maybe rangers arn't all bad - Sniper Ranger Vid

Watch and learn how to play a ranger on Ywain - solo

http://damaja.org/DAoC-Videos/Ywain/Rangers_are_OP.wmv

 

[Haldar]

aye, very good video showing kite part of archer class.

however, i missed to see a fight vs a target who can shoot back for decent dmg. that rr11 scout was escaping all the time, rr10 hunter was melee (btw - his 50bc pet was killed pretty fast).

 

[Bahumat]

Just incase you did not know Eble, MOS got nerfed by reducing the distance you could see. This meant all the MOS5 people now use MOS4 (ok i cant speak for everyone). Assasins use MOS3, some will go MOS4 but I suppose only when high RR. MOS5 you could see people from miles away, the new MOS5 is nowhere near as good imo.

I'm not gonna watch that video about Rangers, simply because I went for a run on my scout last night and kicked many rangers asses. I am RR6 and I rarely lose to a ranger simply because he cant hit me...Nightshades are tough, but I can beat them even if they purge my slam so it says something about how OP scouts are.

On the Ranger you have the front style root which is only useful against a few classes (everyone has either spells, CL disease or debuffs etc). You also have the side stun which is kinda easy to do but at the end of the day, you hit for shit damage.

 

[eble]

Just incase you did not know Eble, MOS got nerfed by reducing the distance you could see. This meant all the MOS5 people now use MOS4 (ok i cant speak for everyone). Assasins use MOS3, some will go MOS4 but I suppose only when high RR. MOS5 you could see people from miles away, the new MOS5 is nowhere near as good imo.

I'm not gonna watch that video about Rangers, simply because I went for a run on my scout last night and kicked many rangers asses. I am RR6 and I rarely lose to a ranger simply because he cant hit me...Nightshades are tough, but I can beat them even if they purge my slam so it says something about how OP scouts are.

On the Ranger you have the front style root which is only useful against a few classes (everyone has either spells, CL disease or debuffs etc). You also have the side stun which is kinda easy to do but at the end of the day, you hit for shit damage.

The vid is worth watching to be honest, his use of the bridges is second to none, I've not actually seen a video before in recent times that you can actually say, yep a solo spec sniper ranger is more than viable.

And the kill he gets from volley in open RVR at speed I've never seen anything like before.

Thanks for MOS advice I never knew about the nerf.

Personally I had a nightmare round bridges because of the LOS issues, this guy knows what his doing, its very entertaining, a lot of classes feature aswell.

But it also has to be said some dreadful play by some really high RR people.

It still give me hopes of making good RP's on Ywain.

 

[Bahumat]

The vid is worth watching to be honest, his use of the bridges is second to none, I've not actually seen a video before in recent times that you can actually say, yep a solo spec sniper ranger is more than viable.

And the kill he gets from volley in open RVR at speed I've never seen anything like before.

Thanks for MOS advice I never knew about the nerf.

Personally I had a nightmare round bridges because of the LOS issues, this guy knows what his doing, its very entertaining, a lot of classes feature aswell.

But it also has to be said some dreadful play by some really high RR people.

It still give me hopes of making good RP's on Ywain.

ok will have a look. The bit you said about bridges is 'probably' what I learnt from Sayadshirazzi (sp?), he looks to jump off from the top, but actually falls onto the other side of the wall thus can shoot the unexpecting fool who jumps into the water. Also enables you to re-stealth if need be.

 

[Ctuchik]

Watch and learn how to play a ranger on Ywain - solo

http://damaja.org/DAoC-Videos/Ywain/Rangers_are_OP.wmv

would be nice if he showed fights against ppl that knew what they were doing tho...

but i guess he lost all of those.

 

[Sharkith]

would be nice if he showed fights against ppl that knew what they were doing tho...

but i guess he lost all of those.

ha!! Thats quite funny and I tend to agree.

In truth it is a very good video but also looks at though this is the only real way the class can be played these days. Gone are the old days where rangers could stand toe to toe with the best of them!!

I found the video educational but it did give me a bit of a headache with the amount of panning-in-a-direction-I-could-not-control....

Music was a 4 out of 10 - too predictable.

Got the Champ bow last night levelling ML exp tonight.....

 

[Bahumat]

The one thing I liked in the video was him using the disease spell. All of those players were shit though. I know you may say "yeah but some were RR8+". It just goes to show, you play the same character long enough, even the shit people get RR10