Whats the new fotm set up now ?

[Zebolt]

And doesnt matter you get dex and stuff to boost your cast speed, the 2.5 will still cast the same % faster.

ofc it matters, the same % of 2.5 isn't as much faster as the same % of 2.8 ^^

 

[Haazheel]

Well I quite like Zede setup, and luckilly I am sometimes in !

Also thank to Evita and my testing last night, the friar must be rejuv, no point otherwise, just feel like shit around the BGed char doing nothing .. And suddenly maelstrom realize it was you BGind 10 mins earlier and you get assist train on the butt.

So .. ml10 BM rejuv friar with ST in this group is .. at least very fun to play.

side note : zeb apologies for last night, got the advantage of situation but /bow to you always

 

[Zebolt]

No, the dps thingy doesnt come here again. Caster with higher dps will outdmg from the first cast on - it's not like melee'rs, who get their first hit for free

My cap is 870 with spec nuke (219dd) and 711 with baseline (179dd). Then the same +skill, %dmg, mom etc a dark sm with lifetap (183dd) should do 726 dmg.

after 0.8 sec:
RM: 0 dmg
SM: 726 dmg

after 1 sec:
RM: 870 dmg
SM: 726 dmg

after 1.6 sec:
RM: 870 dmg
SM: 1452 dmg

after 2 sec:
RM 1740 dmg
SM 1452 dmg

after 2.4 sec:
RM: 1740 dmg
SM: 2178 dmg

after 3 sec:
RM: 2610 dmg
SM: 2178 dmg

after 3.2 sec:
RM: 2610 dmg
SM: 2904 dmg

after 4 sec:
RM: 3480 dmg
SM: 3630 dmg

That should mean that if you can stan still and nuke for over 3 sec without switching target or get interupted the SM will have done more than the RM. But if the RM finnish his target off with 2nd or 3rd nuke (which more than often happen) he will have done more dmg. Which concludes in that if you need more than 3 nukes to take down your target a dark SM would be better to have than a dark RM, dmg wise. Can you say what's better? Is my calculation totally off?

 

[Ilum]

My cap is 870 with spec nuke (219dd) and 711 with baseline (179dd). Then the same +skill, %dmg, mom etc a dark sm with lifetap (183dd) should do 726 dmg.

after 0.8 sec:
RM: 0 dmg
SM: 726 dmg

after 1 sec:
RM: 870 dmg
SM: 726 dmg

after 1.6 sec:
RM: 870 dmg
SM: 1452 dmg

after 2 sec:
RM 1740 dmg
SM 1452 dmg

after 2.4 sec:
RM: 1740 dmg
SM: 2178 dmg

after 3 sec:
RM: 2610 dmg
SM: 2178 dmg

after 3.2 sec:
RM: 2610 dmg
SM: 2904 dmg

after 4 sec:
RM: 3480 dmg
SM: 3630 dmg

That should mean that if you can stan still and nuke for over 3 sec without switching target or get interupted the SM will have done more than the RM. But if the RM finnish his target off with 2nd or 3rd nuke (which more than often happen) he will have done more dmg. Which concludes in that if you need more than 3 nukes to take down your target a dark SM would be better to have than a dark RM, dmg wise. Can you say what's better? Is my calculation totally off?

If they are both nuking for cap, I guess its correct. But if they are not nuking for cap, SM will have the ~~5% ish lifetap bonus

 

[Ilum]

ofc it matters, the same % of 2.5 isn't as much faster as the same % of 2.8 ^^

the % difference is exactly the same......

 

[Killerbee]

Pre-nerf they'd wipe the floor with any twinked ToA group, just ask Killerbee!

Dunno about prenerf, had 100k only by that time

 

[Killerbee]

8 clerics smit0rz

They are so cool that even me going to outspec after 3 years

 

[Ilum]

Ok lets me just give you a very basic example to explain this.

WTFPWNZOR class A has a 200 delve nuke at 4 sec cast speed delve.
WTFPWNZOR class B has a 100 delve nuke at 2 sec cast speed delve.

WTFPWNZOR class A gets an uber template and aug dex and now casts at cap speed, 1.6 seconds.

WTFPWNZOR class B gets an uber template and aug dex and now casts at cap speed, 0.8 seconds.

WTFPWNZOR class A now nukes only 0.8 seconds slower than WTFPWNZOR class B, but look! It's still exactly twice as slow!

Conclusion? Slower delve cast speed does not give you more DPS benifit from cast speed increase.

 

[Smackboy]

A quick note to show what ilum says. Nuked a shammy with spec LT and base DD with dark specced SM 47+17 dark.
What we can see here is a bigger disparity between the LT and the base dd then the delve. Difference in delve is something like 2-3% if im not totaly mistaken.

LT first

[17:25:24] You hit for 356 (-112) damage!
[17:25:24] You cannot absorb any more life.
[17:25:26] You begin casting a Extinguish Lifeforce spell!
[17:25:28] You cast a Extinguish Lifeforce Spell!
[17:25:28] You hit for 356 (-112) damage!
[17:25:28] You cannot absorb any more life.
[17:25:32] You begin casting a Extinguish Lifeforce spell!
[17:25:33] You cast a Extinguish Lifeforce Spell!
[17:25:33] You hit for 356 (-112) damage!

Dark base DD

[17:25:53] You cast a Obsidian Strike Spell!
[17:25:53] You hit for 320 (-101) damage!
[17:25:55] You begin casting a Obsidian Strike spell!
[17:25:57] You cast a Obsidian Strike Spell!
[17:25:57] You hit for 320 (-101) damage!
[17:25:59] You begin casting a Obsidian Strike spell!
[17:26:00] You cast a Obsidian Strike Spell!
[17:26:00] You hit for 320 (-101) damage!

 

[Ilum]

A quick note to show what ilum says. Nuked a shammy with spec LT and base DD with dark specced SM 47+17 dark.
What we can see here is a bigger disparity between the LT and the base dd then the delve. Difference in delve is something like 2-3% if im not totaly mistaken.

LT first

[17:25:24] You hit for 356 (-112) damage!
[17:25:24] You cannot absorb any more life.
[17:25:26] You begin casting a Extinguish Lifeforce spell!
[17:25:28] You cast a Extinguish Lifeforce Spell!
[17:25:28] You hit for 356 (-112) damage!
[17:25:28] You cannot absorb any more life.
[17:25:32] You begin casting a Extinguish Lifeforce spell!
[17:25:33] You cast a Extinguish Lifeforce Spell!
[17:25:33] You hit for 356 (-112) damage!

Dark base DD

[17:25:53] You cast a Obsidian Strike Spell!
[17:25:53] You hit for 320 (-101) damage!
[17:25:55] You begin casting a Obsidian Strike spell!
[17:25:57] You cast a Obsidian Strike Spell!
[17:25:57] You hit for 320 (-101) damage!
[17:25:59] You begin casting a Obsidian Strike spell!
[17:26:00] You cast a Obsidian Strike Spell!
[17:26:00] You hit for 320 (-101) damage!

Well, it's not gonna be 100% accurate to calculate from just these numbers, because the delves are rounded up/down when you delve them, like the 179 baseline is actually 179.5 or sthin

Anyway, to see how the dmg relate to delve:
Spec: 356 / 183 = 1,945
Baseline: 320 / 179 = 1,788

So the spec, in this case, hits around 8,7% harder than the baseline compared to the delve. Might be a margin of error of 1% in both directions. But, bigger number than I thought in any case. And it's enough to tip dark sm's over dark runies. And sorc lifetap over its specline.

(thanks for the numbers btw)

 

[Enariol]

If only damage and time were the factors.. Include the power used and it's a new topic!

 

[Zebolt]

the % difference is exactly the same......

If you have 10% bonus speed on a 2.5 sec nuke you get a 0.25 sec faster nuke and if you have 10% bonus speed on a 2.8 sec nuke you get a 0.28 sec faster nuke. That's what I mean... ^^

 

[Ilum]

If you have 10% bonus speed on a 2.5 sec nuke you get a 0.25 sec faster nuke and if you have 10% bonus speed on a 2.8 sec nuke you get a 0.28 sec faster nuke. That's what I mean... ^^

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees... but still doesnt help the slower speeds dps any more....

 

[Justicator]

2x Healer, Shaman, Skald, Rm, Sm, Berserker, Savage/Berserker 4tw ...

 

[Zebolt]

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees... but still doesnt help the slower speeds dps any more....

Zzz, ofc it does! If Im unbuffed, naked and have a dps at 100 (speed 2.8) and an unbuffed and naked sm have 200 (speed 2.5). The difference between our pds fully equpied and fully buffed will be less than 100 since my speed are faster compared with my unbuffed/naked speed than the sm's compared to his naked/unbuffed speed ^^

 

[Ilum]

Zzz, ofc it does! If Im unbuffed, naked and have a dps at 100 (speed 2.8) and an unbuffed and naked sm have 200 (speed 2.5). The difference between our pds fully equpied and fully buffed will be less than 100 since my speed are faster compared with my unbuffed/naked speed than the sm's compared to his naked/unbuffed speed ^^

Gonna go through with this one more time, using your numbers. And if I'm wrong about this I'll sue my math teacher.

Ok, so you say your dps is 100 with the spec nuke. Which means you are nuking for 280 damage, at 2.8 speed. ( 100 dmg per sec )

So you say the spiritmaster's dps is 200, which means he's nuking for 500 damage at 2.5 speed. (200 dmg per sec)

If you both CAP your castspeed, you'll cast at 40% of the delve speed.

2.8 x 0.4 = 1,12 sec.
2.5 x 0.4 = 1,00 sec

Ok, lets see now.

The runemaster is still nuking for 280 damage, only now he's nuking at 1.12 speed. His new dps is 250 (280 / 1.12). His old dps was 100.

The spiritmaster is still nuking for 500 damage, only now he's nuking at 1 speed. His new dps is 500 (500 / 1). His old dps was 200.

Ok, now.

Please notice.

Before and after the cast speed increase, the spiritmaster does exactly twice as much damage as the runemaster.

 

[Zebolt]

so what would you say "dps" is? ^^

 

[Ilum]

so what would you say "dps" is? ^^

Unless I'm mistaken, dps is Damage Per Second. That's the meaning I'm putting into it atleast.

 

[Zebolt]

Unless I'm mistaken, dps is Damage Per Second. That's the meaning I'm putting into it atleast.

Indeed.

So let's calculate it like you then. RM 870 dmg, 2.8 sec, SM 726 dmg 2.5 sec. Which means the RM has a dps at 310.7 (870/2.8) and the SM has a dps at 290.4 (726/2.5).

40% as you said, RM 1.12 sec, SM 1.0 sec.

I don't know the exact numbers of dmg but lets say it's 25% when you cap. So the RM will nuke 1087.5 (870*1.25) every 1.12 sec. And the SM will nuke 907.5 (726*1.25) every 1.0 sec.

That means the RM's new dps will be 971 (1087.5/1.12) and the SM's new dps will be 907.5 (907.5/1).

If you look at the old / new dps.
RM: 310.7 / 971
SM: 290.4 / 907.5

The amount the RM has raised his dps is 660.3 (971-310.7)
The amount the SM has raised his dps is 617.1 (907.5-290.4)

Conslusion is that the RM's dps has raised more when buffed than the SM's.

 

[Ilum]

Indeed.

So let's calculate it like you then. RM 870 dmg, 2.8 sec, SM 726 dmg 2.5 sec. Which means the RM has a dps at 310.7 (870/2.8) and the SM has a dps at 290.4 (726/2.5).

40% as you said, RM 1.12 sec, SM 1.0 sec.

I don't know the exact numbers of dmg but lets say it's 25% when you cap. So the RM will nuke 1087.5 (870*1.25) every 1.12 sec. And the SM will nuke 907.5 (726*1.25) every 1.0 sec.

That means the RM's new dps will be 971 (1087.5/1.12) and the SM's new dps will be 907.5 (907.5/1).

If you look at the old / new dps.
RM: 310.7 / 971
SM: 290.4 / 907.5

The amount the RM has raised his dps is 660.3 (971-310.7)
The amount the SM has raised his dps is 617.1 (907.5-290.4)

Conslusion is that the RM's dps has raised more when buffed than the SM's.

¨
Fgs...are you joking with me or something?

So by your example, if 1 caster nukes for 100000000000 million dmg, and the other caster nukes for 1 dmg, and then they get boosted and the first one nukes for 100000000001 million dmg, and the other caster nukes for 2 dmg, they've had a similar dmg increase?

If you look at the dmg increase, its exactly the same. Its 3.12x old dps for both casters. Its not about the exact number increase, its about the % of dmg increase of dps.

(and even if you insist on calculating it that way - which is a bollocks way of doing it - it will be the spiritmaster's dps that "raise the most", since he will have most to begin with)

183 / 2.5 x 1.08 (lajftap bonus) = 79,056
219 / 2.8 x 1.00 (no bonus m8r) = 78,214

 

[Huntingtons]

mainly he take care of the caster and droods. Champ is much more closer to the MA then the warden, and the warden have to run to the MA, and it takes time.l

bl champ > bm champ.

 

[Puppet]

Before and after the cast speed increase, the spiritmaster does exactly twice as much damage as the runemaster.

Well duh; multiplication is a math transformation u can do in any order. eg 4x3x2 = 2x3x4. I believe the math-term is additive; but I forgot

 

[Ilum]

Well duh; multiplication is a math transformation u can do in any order. eg 4x3x2 = 2x3x4. I believe the math-term is additive; but I forgot

duh idd

 

[Zebolt]

If you look at the dmg increase, its exactly the same. Its 3.12x old dps for both casters. Its not about the exact number increase, its about the % of dmg increase of dps.

Sigh... I'm not talking about the % of dps, I'm talking about the amount of dps (yes, a silly way of putting it but since you don't understand what I'm saying I don't know how else to put it) xD

So stop trying to be a genius cuz' it ain't helping anyone

 

[Ilum]

Sigh... I'm not talking about the % of dps, I'm talking about the amount of dps (yes, a silly way of putting it but since you don't understand what I'm saying I don't know how else to put it) xD

So stop trying to be a genius cuz' it ain't helping anyone

Well I don't know what you're trying to prove with that cause its like saying "i like milk, so my dps is ubah". And since it helps the SM more whats your point?

 

[Puppet]

Well I don't know what you're trying to prove with that cause its like saying "i like milk, so my dps is ubah". And since it helps the SM more whats your point?

He's trying to proof that 2 similar classes where 1 has a higher DPS unbuffed also has a higher DPS buffed IF the multplicative factor which is called 'buffing' in our little game is a constant. Because of the higher unbuffed DPS obviously the ABSOLUTE amount of DPS-gain is higher; because :

a * b < (a+c) * b where c is a number higher then 0

My Calculus-theory is abit rusty; but if i recall correctly this is a result of one the ten axioms we use as basis for our entire math-system oO

 

[Ilum]

He's trying to proof that 2 similar classes where 1 has a higher DPS unbuffed also has a higher DPS buffed IF the multplicative factor which is called 'buffing' in our little game is a constant. Because of the higher unbuffed DPS obviously the ABSOLUTE amount of DPS-gain is higher; because :

a * b < (a+c) * b where c is a number higher then 0

My Calculus-theory is abit rusty; but if i recall correctly this is a result of one the ten axioms we use as basis for our entire math-system oO

well thats pretty obvious, but it doesnt rly help his poor runie

 

[Phooka]

what u guys think of bard, 2 droods , 2 vw's , bm , chimp , mana eld

 

[Zebolt]

well thats pretty obvious, but it doesnt rly help his poor runie

I'm not trying to prove that my RM has higher dps than a SM cuz' on the paper it doesn't. In game I have no idea. What I was trying to say was that my RM erm.. bah.. I don't know how else to explain it. I have more use for buffs xD

One thing I can brag about tho is that I got the highest cap dmg on the server from a single nuke

 

[Haggus]

Think i'm gonna try 1 sorc 1 caba 1 thurg 1 merc 1 mincer 1 pally 2 clerics Oo

See how that goes..