What is a Good Relic Raid?

[xajorkith]

I will endeavour to write this post in a neutral form. I know being a Mid all Albs will flame me as will the H&S Duo. This post is about “What is a Good Relic Raid”, it’s meant as a “discussion”. No flame, whine or sarcasm is intended.

For a Relic Raid to be classed “as well done” it needs a pass IMO the “Time” & “Tactics” tests.

Time.
I think all Realms will agree 20:00-22:30 CET is the Prime Time for our server. The day of week doesn’t seem to affect numbers too much, though Saturday and Sunday can have Peaks in the afternoon.

One thing we are not agreed on is “When does the Raid” start,
1) One Realm sends their Relic Force into another realm at 20:00 (PT) and they all log off in that realm. At 06:00 they return and complete the Relic Raid, is this a prime Time raid? I would say not would you?

2) One Realm sends their Relic Force into another realm at 01:30 and they log off and then relog in at 20:00 (PT) the next day. Is this a prime time raid? I would say not would you?

3) A realm gathers at their portal keep in the foreign realm at 20:00 (PT) and starts hitting the Relic Keep at 22:00, is this a Prime Time raid? I would say yes.

4) A realm sends a force into a foreign realm at 20:00 but struggles to maintain a foothold, but at 01:30 they start to make headway and seize the relic, is this a Prime Time Raid? I would say yes, but many wouldn’t.

Tactics.
There seems to be 5 main tactics, in order of difficulty:
1) Brute Force of just the Relic Keep. This is quite hard as all the uber guards are still present. It needs a huge zerg and probably on our server only Albion could pull it off. The advantage of this method is that it can be very difficult for the defenders to get in to defend. This requires some skill to get the zerg unnoticed to the Relic Keep.

2) Brute Force on the Keeps followed by an assault on Relic Keep. This option gets rid of the guards at the keep but it does give the defenders more chance to get to the Relic Keep. The knack is to get all 7 keeps to fall at exactly the same time, as a small force hits the Relic Keep. Attackers may use a CS.

3) The Ninja Tactic. This is quite contentious, again it’s a tactic more suited to Albion because they have two wall climber classes, and the rest have one. It doesn’t break any rules, it’s not even messing with the dynamics of the game, so to all intents a purpose’s it is a fair tactic and shouldn’t really be criticised for its use. (I’ve read many a post and have changed my mind about Ninja Raids.)

4) Alarm Clock raid, this is pretty lame, it’s not too bad in that it does not break the dynamics of the game, armies all around the world invade each other at dodgy times (Russia invaded Afghanistan on Christmas day). The problem with it, is that it’s difficult to defend against and mostly involves non RvR fighting so is typically frowned upon.

5) Log an army off in an enemy frontier and log them back on a predetermined time. This is the worst tactic of all. The host realm can’t defend against it. In the past Mid has used this tactic, but they still took the keeps but the new trend is to log off an army directly outside the relic keep if the number of attackers is high it is totally impossible to defend against. The defenders will not be able to muster enough (non rez sick) troops fast enough to even stand a chance of getting into the relic keep, I see no difference in 4 and 5.

Mythic need to sort this out the last point out. If you log off in an enemy frontier you should be put back into your portal keep. If you log off in a friendly keep in the enemy Frontier then fair enough. Of the five tactics this one is the only one that breaks the dynamics of the game, armies in RL don’t just enter another country and disappear for 20 hours.

In all my time on DAoC I believe there has only been one prime time raid, and I believe that was Hibs V Mids and was about year ago. More recently Ardamels Raid into Hib to take a relic on Sunday afternoon was without doubt the finest raid Midgard has done, it was a shame the server crashed.

I obviously don’t know much about Hib V Alb and vice versa raids, has either side done any "Well done" raids?

Which realm has done the best Relic Raids? And you can’t vote for your own realms!
Do you agree with the Time and Tactics points?

What I’d like to see is a move away from these lame “Log in” raids just like we moved away from the lame "Alarm Clock" Raids.

For me the perfect raid would be a huge zerg leaving a tk at 20:00 breaking up (reduces lag) and seizing keeps very quickly before heading to the relic.

Don’t flame, for once lets have an adult conversation.

 

[Edohadien]

There is nothing in this game called morals.
there a some goals in this game that has been set up from the start and some of them are to "get" "control" "keep" Relics. and and a "rl" war there isn nothing as "Alarmclock war" u hit ur enemy when they are weak. and iam fine with that tactic thou i i would like to see it used alot less if the attacking Realm would like to have some resistence.

Stupid to attack when enemy is outnummbering you beacuse you wont be able to do anything but give them more rpts.
thats the biggist reason for alarmclock raids and thats why they are here to stay

 

[Aussie-]

Originally posted by xajorkith
What is a Good Relic Raid?

one where mids loose relics, nomatter how , when or who took them

 

[herjulf]

You about covered it.

The time to accept them as some sort of rule however, is the day all relic is at their "on paper" righteous owner.
And all is reset.

There is no defence against a logged out army of 200+ people, any time of the day, the first guard to die is a relickeep guard.

Then the entire idea of being able to upgrade keeps, wasting guild bountypoints on keeping keeps lvl10.
spending P´s on doors to keep em higlvl.

Then pop an army simply log in and scale the walls, takes out "1" door, while the army outside sets up a trillion of trebs to GTAOE the inner room, incase of defenders are inside. and vanish with the relic before anyone even can defend themselves. the raid is over within 20min RL time.

This is "possible" now and noone will be banned, etc bla bla, but it is something the badly need to change, especially considering ONE realm more then the others can with more ease do them aswell.

Mythic need to do something serious about it, unability to logout in ANY RvR frontier whatsoever, for more then lets say 30mins.
doing so should make the player be returned to last bind spot.

Same imo goes for defenders, the raid should be done straight forwards the hardcore way or not at all.
Thus logging out in ANY keep should only be possible, if the keep is owned by his/her realm.
Popping a keep should make the very area in, outside the "entered keep x" area, be as it was the owners home realm.

And if the keep is under attack, logging in should not be possible.
and by being under attack, i mean x number of opposing realm players are inside the "entered keep x" and have started dmging doors/killing guards.

This will nullify chicken shit raids, and make em more then log out grp by grp at /loc x, zerg + scale walls, and run home and be proud of what´s accomplished.

 

[Tivook]

Mythic need to sort this out the last point out. If you log off in an enemy frontier you should be put back into your portal keep. If you log off in a friendly keep in the enemy Frontier then fair enough. Of the five tactics this one is the only one that breaks the dynamics of the game, armies in RL don’t just enter another country and disappear for 20 hours.

I agree with this, logging 200ppl in another realm for almost 24 hours is basically the same thing as a alarmclock raid, no matter when you start attacking the relic keep etc.

Tiv

 

[bracken_woodman]

Some fair points Xaj - I actually agree with ya for once

 

[Arnor]

primetime


knock down doors in succession


thats about it

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by xajorkith

Mythic need to sort this out the last point out. If you log off in an enemy frontier you should be put back into your portal keep. If you log off in a friendly keep in the enemy Frontier then fair enough. Of the five tactics this one is the only one that breaks the dynamics of the game, armies in RL don’t just enter another country and disappear for 20 hours.

Agreed 100%, logging off/ninja raids are imho as bad as alarm clock raids.

 

[Belomar]

Well, we've done the logout/ninja thing twice, you've done it twice. Call it even, or are you Mids just going to have to be one up before you are satisfied (like with the alarm clock thing?).

 

[blademistress]

All you whiners... You know what they say.. All is fair in love and war.

You think the defenders of Troy began whining when they were tricked? My guess they did not.

 

[herjulf]

Originally posted by blademistress
All you whiners... You know what they say.. All is fair in love and war.

You think the defenders of Troy began whining when they were tricked? I can bet you 100£ that they didnt whine like you guys do.

Didnt see any humungous tree horse camped outside Mjollner 2 hours before the raid?

Did any1 see the horse?

keep to the thread theme pls b-mistress.

 

[xplo]

Re: Re: What is a Good Relic Raid?

Originally posted by Aussie-
one where mids loose relics, nomatter how , when or who took them

I agree with you on that aussie.

 

[blademistress]

Well, Herjulf, if you didnt get the thing about troy. It was merely an statement after saying "all is fair in love and war"

 

[old.Filip]

tbh i cant be ass'ed to take you guys seriously ...

you inventet the alarm clock raid on the basis of an alb raid who startet primetime....

you could have defended it if you didnt keep trowing your self at our walls and meet us with you migthy zerkers on the open ground instead...

you have allrdy done several logout raids.....

about the 3. door thing ... well we killed all door's a 1-2 min after door 3 ... so wouldnt have mattered...

and i know you dear middi's enough to know that you use any advantage you can get in this game .....

so pppppppllllllzzzzz you really think we will bend over and take it in the ass after you're command ?? sigh ... all though i know some alb who like it

Filip

 

[kameh]

Originally posted by old.Filip
tbh i cant be ass'ed to take you guys seriously ...

you inventet the alarm clock raid on the basis of an alb raid who startet primetime....

you could have defended it if you didnt keep trowing your self at our walls and meet us with you migthy zerkers on the open ground instead...

you have allrdy done several logout raids.....

about the 3. door thing ... well we killed all door's a 1-2 min after door 3 ... so wouldnt have mattered...

and i know you dear middi's enough to know that you use any advantage you can get in this game .....

so pppppppllllllzzzzz you really think we will bend over and take it in the ass after you're command ?? sigh ... all though i know some alb who like it

Filip

To be honest I can't understand a f*cking word of that.

 

[alme]

could some1 pls make sum it all up cuz i cba reading :<

 

[old.Tzeentch]

Please note this is a game.. people making comparisons to RL wars saying if it is fine irl, it is fine here, need a head-check.

Aside from that, please dont keep throwing Hibernia in your pots, we have a huge disadvantage in terms of population, and we all know that we only hold the power relics, not because of our vigor when defending the realm, but because no one can be arsed attacking us with something like Albion attacked Midgard.

Whereas both mid/alb on this server can summon 300+ level 50s, and 4 times the amount of GTAErs, siege equipment, and stealthers/wall climbers that hibernia can muster, even if called for.

If we were to organise a raid, we'd be happy to get 200 or so level 50s.

It's also slightly insane to even consider claiming more than 3-4 keeps in an enemy frontier, and have our own claimed at the same time.

But, sticking to the thread, I think ninja raids are not fair because, as above, we cannot muster the amount of stealthers to deal with the doors and enemy stealthers/guards.
As game dynamics go, they are fine, nothing illegal, but its on a tightrope, since they basically are circumventing the 'good relic raids are ones that allow the enemy to respond in a decent fashion' mentality I always like to keep.

Any raid that allows the enemy to respond to your attack decently, is a good raid, in my opinion.

 

[gunner440]

a good relic raid is when 2 guys hold a savage down while another one crushes the fotms nuts with a steel toe combat boot!


then shoots him in the ass 9 times with a magnum

 

[Nazghul-]

auuwww a buuutifoll flowaar

 

[old.Nol]

On hibs last successfull raid, 6fg left the tk simultaneously, other groups left periodically to meet up at a specified location. I gave a logout point to 5fg's because I had a feeling there was a spy, I was proved right as those 5 fg's were killed as they logged on. The rest of us managed to take relic anyway and at primetime(8:30 GMT) we started. We took down all 3 doors the hard way, and we gave ample opportunity for mids to come and defend. Never mind the fact I had taken keeps in midgard for a week keading up to the raid.

I really don't see what is wrong with that raid format?

Hib doesn't have the numbers to take keeps and a relic keep, our only tactic is to zerg the relic, if we lucky we might be able to spare some people on one other keep.

 

[Iswind]

Since ppl tend to whine whatever mids do i say to hell with it lets start use every lame tactic in the book..

I mean theyr gonna whine anyways so why dont we make it easy on ourselves?

 

[Jarrax]

What is a Good Relic Raid?



One where the defenders dont outnumber the attackers before they turn up is a good start.

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by Iswind
Since ppl tend to whine whatever mids do i say to hell with it lets start use every lame tactic in the book..

I mean theyr gonna whine anyways so why dont we make it easy on ourselves?

um, people tend to whine about any RR anyway just take a look at the new Alb thread you can see many mids whinging, it's not an exclusive thing that other realms do to you.

In my raid, there was a mid that whined because we carried the relic out through dodens and didn't try get it through the milegate...go figure...

 

[Iswind]

Thats my point if ppl whine anyway that the rr is lame.

So why not use lame tactics then

 

[Belomar]

Well, more than 400 posts in the relevant thread for one of the most elegant and well-executed relic raids ever. Just goes to show, as you say, that people always whine.

 

[wolfen_rb]

Originally posted by gunner440
a good relic raid is when 2 guys hold a savage down while another one crushes the fotms nuts with a steel toe combat boot!


then shoots him in the ass 9 times with a magnum

hahahahaha

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by Iswind
Thats my point if ppl whine anyway that the rr is lame.

So why not use lame tactics then

I think it's fairly obvious why not...

 

[stighelmer]

I agree with the thread starter here. However I do not feel that login raids during Prime Time are as bad as alarm clock raids. Sure would be nice if we from now on only could do raids without the log tactic (since we now are even). But on the other hand that would make it nearly impossible for the poor wittle hibs since they are kinda underpopulated. I dunno know on this one.

And I also totally agree that ninja raids are fine. Sure it is easier for alb to pull it off since we can utilitze one of our strong classes but wtf should we not be allowed to do that ? It is in no way a bug abuse (like some have tried to claim) and it is not something that will be "fixed" in upcoming patches. Just because it something that alb can do a better than mids/hibs it is not good sport/bug abuse? And it makes it ok for mids/hibs to do alarm clock raids? I really do not see the logic some are trying to use in these discussions.

Go go ninja raiding prime time imo.

Nice thread

edit: or we could do what gunz suggested. im up for it

 

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by stighelmer
And it makes it ok for mids/hibs to do alarm clock raids? I really do not see the logic some are trying to use in these discussions.

Um Hibs have never done alarm clock raids, why would we start now?

 

[glorien_]

Am I the only one that thinks this is supposed to be war. THere arent rules etc you just do what needs to be done to get the upper hand. All this 'rules' BS shouldn't apply in game. After all realms are supposed to fighting for freedom and whatnot.