What do you believe?

[tris-]

how the fuck does legal porn spawn peadophilia exactly?

 

[Gorbachioo]

I'll asnwer like you: But for some reason, people want to keep believing.

It's as simple as that. Taking away funding, getting rich, being more educated, these would have zero effect on people believing in god/gods, doing what they do and so forth. General attitude is bad towards a lot of things, but still they haven't died out. ALOT worse things then religion is coming from technology, industry, money, greed, and have what you will.

You can take my examples, and "explain" how their not that bad, but it doesn't moot the point. There can always happen bad things, from anything. I bet if we took some things you like to do, we could say all the bad stuff that happens from it. Drive a car? Smoke? Drink? Eat meat? Don't grow your own food? The fact of the matter is, that simply because you don't believe, and because some people do bad things in the name of religion, isn't a valid reason to kill all religion completely.

And still waiting on any other way to "kill religion", then with concentration camps and gas chambers.

Religion is slowly dying Europe. Why? We're rich, we're educated and the general attitude is turning against it.

Cars are necessary even if they do kill people. Smoking is the same as alcohol. Meat? Well it might have its share in heart diseases but its not the main reason. Dont understand the growing your own food thing... -,-

Religion gives nothing but false hope, yet it kills millions of people a year. Ofcourse thats a valid reason to destroy it.

Like Marx said. Religion is the opium of the people (or something like that, feel free to correct me smartasses). We so desperately want to hold on to it even though its only making us miserable. Just like a drug.

 

[Job]

George says it best

YouTube - George Carlin - Religion is bullshit.

 

[liloe]

Porn and Child porn are not linked in any way. Whether theres porn or not has no effect on the amount of child porn. I dont think there would be any bad results from banning alcohol. But for some reason people want to keep drinking it. (As do i -,-). Condoms save millions of lives every year so those few deaths arent enough to make them a bad thing.

The chance of it happening is enough of a reason to ban religion because it has very few positive effects on society. And some fundamentalist revolution in Europe is not my main concern here. If there is a god then someone will ALWAYS take it to the next level. For example, trying to prevent africans from using condoms. Aslong as there is a god these things will happen.


When people are rich and educated religions die on their own if they are not supported financially and if the general attitude towards them is not positive.

No offence dude, but this post shows how clueless you are.

 

[old.Tohtori]

how the fuck does legal porn spawn peadophilia exactly?

Not what i said, but also shouldn't be taken as literally. Those were just examples on how something, MIGHT be a reason for other.

Aka, without porn, wouldn't be childporn. etc.

1: Religion is slowly dying Europe. Why? We're rich, we're educated and the general attitude is turning against it.

2: Cars are necessary even if they do kill people. Smoking is the same as alcohol. Meat? Well it might have its share in heart diseases but its not the main reason. Dont understand the growing your own food thing... -,-

3: Religion gives nothing but false hope, yet it kills millions of people a year. Ofcourse thats a valid reason to destroy it.

4: Like Marx said. Religion is the opium of the people (or something like that, feel free to correct me smartasses). We so desperately want to hold on to it even though its only making us miserable. Just like a drug.

1: Religion is dying only in the mind of the people who are opposed to it. Again, money and anti-religion people are not the cause for a very doubtful religions demise. Again, how do you suppose we rid of religion since you so want to? Even if there were no churches, huge anti-semantics against it and all that, people would still believe. They have for ages, they will continue to do so. So what do you suggest?

2: You could pickapart anything i said, but completely missed the point. The point was, that from everything you do, there is harmful things, yet it's necessary and/or wanted by the people. Is religion different only because you want it gone? What if people were against something you do?

3: I've said before what religion gives, it gives more then just hope and is used for mroe then x worshipping.

4: Religion only makes people like you miserable, as it seems, it's not doing it for me. Also, AGAIN, don't pack up ALL religion into killing millions because of non-condom-mandates which is a tiny fragment of all religion in the world.

Crusade all you want, but do it against what you are against, don't call everyone a religious zealot mass murdering idealist, just because some religion/people are.

 

[Mojo]

1: Religion is dying only in the mind of the people who are opposed to it. Again, money and anti-religion people are not the cause for a very doubtful religions demise. Again, how do you suppose we rid of religion since you so want to? Even if there were no churches, huge anti-semantics against it and all that, people would still believe. They have for ages, they will continue to do so. So what do you suggest?

Religious beliefs are directly linked to peoples level of education, Europe suffers less from religion because we are more educated apparently and more able and willing to question belief systems, education is in turn linked to wealth.

Religion will fade away over time, is my guess, I think the majority of people who hang onto religion do so because they have a hard time dealing with the finality of death, as soon as you replace death with something more appealing (as religions do) then people will by in to it, its the common denominator when it comes to all religions and cults.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Religious beliefs are directly linked to peoples level of education, Europe suffers less from religion because we are more educated apparently and more able and willing to question belief systems, education is in turn linked to wealth.

Religion will fade away over time, is my guess, I think the majority of people who hang onto religion do so because they have a hard time dealing with the finality of death, as soon as you replace death with something more appealing (as religions do) then people will by in to it, its the common denominator when it comes to all religions and cults.

Have to ask what you mean from "suffers less"? Suffers less from extremists i reckon? Because religion is very strong in europe, as it's always been, just it's more versatile and not so strict. It's not dying, or less alive, then in the US as an example, people just don't chant it on the streets and in your face as much.

Religion is stronger now, and more versatile aswell, then it was many many years ago, so i'd say the amount of religion, or people believing, is inclining and not declining.

 

[Mojo]

Have to ask what you mean from "suffers less"? Suffers less from extremists i reckon? Because religion is very strong in europe, as it's always been, just it's more versatile and not so strict. It's not dying, or less alive, then in the US as an example, people just don't chant it on the streets and in your face as much.

Suffers less as in we don't have to hear about it, it's not the driving force behind europe.

Religion is stronger now, and more versatile aswell, then it was many many years ago, so i'd say the amount of religion, or people believing, is inclining and not declining.

Not from what I have seen, from where are you getting information to suggest religion is on the up and up in the EU?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Suffers less as in we don't have to hear about it, it's not the driving force behind europe.

Not from what I have seen, from where are you getting information to suggest religion is on the up and up in the EU?

So the "harm" is that people who are not religious, have to sometimes see/hear something religious?

Is that really "harming" europe?

I don't have a "statistical" information portal, just seems that religion isn't dying either, as there are people, christians, buddhist, etc, quite a lot around and the versatility part comes from all the different styles of religion we have. Buddhist, nordic, etc.

I meant growing, as in, there are alot of different religions compared to the "christianity or death" times, and people believe alot still.

Looked up some, and yes, talking about christianity, god/bible, etc, it is declining. But also in some parts, inclining. I meant the growth more in people believing in SOMETHING, not just god/bible. But then, this thread has had a bit off a vagueness in the whole "what are we talking about". Seems a lot of negative things people say, are straight towards christianity, and as such, towards religion as a whole. Also a lot of people seem, note seem, to think that if you're religious, it's god/bible for you. So apples and oranges when it comes to different belief systems.

But in no way can one say it's dying either.

 

[Mojo]

So the "harm" is that people who are not religious, have to sometimes see/hear something religious?

Is that really "harming" europe?

Yes, religion is as far I can see one of the huge sticking points when it comes to social integration. People talk about racism but I think we have a culturalism problem and it;s just called racism out of habbit, when religion is the driving force behind a culture the upshot is problems and as we know, many cultures are driven by religion, so when we see race riots for example what we actually see is culture riots.

The less religion the less differences and the fewer sticking points we will have, another problem is that decisions made by people in positions of authority can be biased by their religions or as not offend someone else's, so what should be a common sense logical and impartial decision can very well be skewed by religion.

But in no way can one say it's dying either.

Many churches report falling attendances, that's hardly a sign of growth. and the new age religions cults etc get credit from no one so I doubt they will do so well for themselves in the long term.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yes, religion is as far I can see one of the huge sticking points when it comes to social integration. People talk about racism but I think we have a culturalism problem and it;s just called racism out of habbit, when religion is the driving force behind a culture the upshot is problems and as we know, many cultures are driven by religion, so when we see race riots for example what we actually see is culture riots.

The less religion the less differences and the fewer sticking points we will have, another problem is that decisions made by people in positions of authority can be biased by their religions or as not offend someone else's, so what should be a common sense logical and impartial decision can very well be skewed by religion.

So, do correct me if i'm wrong, but you want to eliminate discrimination via means of total conformation? Doesn't that seem at all contradictive to you?

About politicians making decicions based on beliefs, those people who put him in opwer, most likely put him in power due to his beliefs also, sio those same "religional beliefs" are the same on them too. If you don't want a man deciding absed on faith, vote for someone else. That's how the voting works.

Many churches report falling attendances, that's hardly a sign of growth. and the new age religions cults etc get credit from no one so I doubt they will do so well for themselves in the long term.

Exactly what i said, christianity/church/god/bible may be going down a aibt(not much that either), but religion isn't just churches and such.

 

[Mojo]

So, do correct me if i'm wrong, but you want to eliminate discrimination via means of total conformation? Doesn't that seem at all contradictive to you?

I think people would get on better if their "Beliefs didn't get in the way" that's pretty much what I meant. But you will insist on spinning.

Exactly what I said, christianity/church/god/bible may be going down a aibt(not much that either), but religion isn't just churches and such.

I used that as example because it close to home and more widely talked about, and like I have said I have seen nothing whatsoever to suggest that religion is on the rise. I'm not going to agree that its not so lets just not bother eh.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think people would get on better if their "Beliefs didn't get in the way" that's pretty much what I meant. But you will insist on spinning.

I used that as example because it close to home and more widely talked about, and like I have said I have seen nothing whatsoever to suggest that religion is on the rise. I'm not going to agree that its not so lets just not bother eh.

I'm not spinning, i said, correct me if i'm wrong, as your post seemed like "no religion, no problem", as in, remove peoples individuality and remove differences. That's what it sounded like, what you wrote next "religion shouldn't get in the way" sounds completely different.

Wasn't that the point in your original? Remove religion, remove more of our differences?

Sure, beliefs shouldn't get in the way, but they shouldn't be used against people either then. So, as an example; tom Cruise, actor, people would probably use his religion against him in some choices. Yet, these same people say that people shouldn't use religion as a basis for their decisions. Hypocritical i'd say.

By the way, don't start with that "you're just doing the same thing" cop-out. People seem to have a problem in taking posts as personal attacks all the time and backstabbing, instead of discussing and trying to get other peoples points. I'm asking things to understand more, to get the point.

I used that as example because it close to home and more widely talked about, and like I have said I have seen nothing whatsoever to suggest that religion is on the rise. I'm not going to agree that its not so lets just not bother eh.

So you're not saying it is nto our place to say it's rising or declining? Good, that we can agree on, as one might need more then google to find that out with some "evidence". Opinions ofcourse are just those.

Suprising by the way, when i want something explained more or understand it wrong, it's spinning, yet when, as an example, tris- thinks i meant legal porn makes paedos, it's just me being me again.

 

[Mojo]

I'm not spinning, i said, correct me if i'm wrong, as your post seemed like "no religion, no problem", as in, remove peoples individuality and remove differences. That's what it sounded like, what you wrote next "religion shouldn't get in the way" sounds completely different.

Wasn't that the point in your original? Remove religion, remove more of our differences?

Sure, beliefs shouldn't get in the way, but they shouldn't be used against people either then. So, as an example; tom Cruise, actor, people would probably use his religion against him in some choices. Yet, these same people say that people shouldn't use religion as a basis for their decisions. Hypocritical i'd say.

By the way, don't start with that "you're just doing the same thing" cop-out. People seem to have a problem in taking posts as personal attacks all the time and backstabbing, instead of discussing and trying to get other peoples points. I'm asking things to understand more, to get the point.



So you're not saying it is nto our place to say it's rising or declining? Good, that we can agree on, as one might need more then google to find that out with some "evidence". Opinions ofcourse are just those.

Suprising by the way, when i want something explained more or understand it wrong, it's spinning, yet when, as an example, tris- thinks i meant legal porn makes paedos, it's just me being me again.

People can explain all day long to you and you will just manoeuvre you way into another argument, you asking for "clarification" and "explanation" is your favoured method of manoeuvre. It seems that the more people engage you the more difficult you become and I like simply cannot be bothered to explain myself in detail over and over and to clarify every single point and meaning I wanted to make. A debate over religion with a believer in Norse gods just is not high up on my priority list have more important things to do.

 

[old.Tohtori]

People can explain all day long to you and you will just manoeuvre you way into another argument, you asking for "clarification" and "explanation" is your favoured method of manoeuvre. It seems that the more people engage you the more difficult you become and I like simply cannot be bothered to explain myself in detail over and over and to clarify every single point and meaning I wanted to make. A debate over religion with a believer in Norse gods just is not high up on my priority list have more important things to do.

Alright, that's fine. If you don't want to discuss a matter more, then say so.Don't get offensive and claim i spin things, when i ask for mroe, and discuss the issue.

I can't believe it's another "thing tohtori does", when i want to discuss a matter with more then "Hey look lolz religion".

If you don't want to discuss a matter further, tell me, and that's fine. Like you did now, but don't try and make me look bad for discussing things.

Your definition of "argument" varies evidently alot, as i've not been in any argument for gods know how long.

When someone sayes "I don't like religion" and i ask why, and they answer "all religion is bad", and i ask for a bit mroe text then that, isn't it a discussion? Or is the problem with me asking questions and not arguing and cussing on all?

 

[Rookiescot]

People can explain all day long to you and you will just manoeuvre you way into another argument, you asking for "clarification" and "explanation" is your favoured method of manoeuvre. It seems that the more people engage you the more difficult you become and I like simply cannot be bothered to explain myself in detail over and over and to clarify every single point and meaning I wanted to make. A debate over religion with a believer in Norse gods just is not high up on my priority list have more important things to do.

How far from your pram did the teddy land?

 

[Binky the Bomb]

Ah, for the day when we just threw the bible thumpers into a stone arena filled with lions and tigers.
Least the animals were well fed. Whiskers christian, now with 10% more piety.

 

[liloe]

Religious beliefs are directly linked to peoples level of education, Europe suffers less from religion because we are more educated apparently and more able and willing to question belief systems, education is in turn linked to wealth.

I'll give you something to think then.

Jews are among the really rich people and very educated aswell. Still, they are religious. Strange, isn't it?

In ancient Egypt, religion was predominant in every aspect of life, still they achieved great things which impress us even nowadays. They were also very rich and influenced a huge part of their known world.

Take the Celts, the Chinese, the Maye and you will find great intelligence and wealth, but also great faith, so your argument is kinda moot.

Toht is absolutely right when he sais that your arguments are repetitive, because every time someone asks why religion is so bad, you just give some extremists as example.
You know, politicians do the same with "computer games that create killers" and yet I bet you'd say they're all wrong and are just making generalisations.

So let me ask you: What would you tell someone who wants to forbid computer games all together? They have no use at all except a little bit of fun, but honestly, you can survive without. They're also at the base of aggressions from young children and as such very dangerous for society.

 

[liloe]

Ah, for the day when we just threw the bible thumpers into a stone arena filled with lions and tigers.
Least the animals were well fed. Whiskers christian, now with 10% more piety.

Omg ban, he wants me to die IRL…

 

[Mojo]

How far from your pram did the teddy land?

Weren't you the one who fantasised about me phlegming on my monitor? You need to expand your repertoire a little, the whole "They must be having a tantrum/fit angle doesn't work well for you, but then I cant imagine that much would work for you.

You fail, delete yourself and roll a new character.

 

[Rookiescot]

Weren't you the one who fantasised about me phlegming on my monitor? You need to expand your repertoire a little, the whole "They must be having a tantrum/fit angle doesn't work well for you, but then I cant imagine that much would work for you.

You fail, delete yourself and roll a new character.

Opps .... there goes the dummy too...

 

[Mojo]

I'll give you something to think then.

Jews are among the really rich people and very educated aswell. Still, they are religious. Strange, isn't it?

Didn't anyone tell you that the whole wealthy Jew thing was a stereo type? There are well educated and wealthy people in all religions, incidentally people at the top of religions and cults have never been the poorest. Why do you expect that is?

In ancient Egypt, religion was predominant in every aspect of life, still they achieved great things which impress us even nowadays. They were also very rich and influenced a huge part of their known world.

Take the Celts, the Chinese, the Maye and you will find great intelligence and wealth, but also great faith, so your argument is kinda moot.

Were not in ancient Egypt, and its not Moot at all, it is a fact that religious beliefs are related directly to education to be more specific, the higher the IQ the less likely it is that you will be convinced that gods exist and that you must obey them, (I don't recall who I heard put like that, but I thought it funny, I hope you do to)

Toht is absolutely right when he sais that your arguments are repetitive, because every time someone asks why religion is so bad, you just give some extremists as example.
You know, politicians do the same with "computer games that create killers" and yet I bet you'd say they're all wrong and are just making generalisations.

I haven't given any extremist examples. Part of the frustration debating with Tho is that if you don't spell out every meaning of something he will dig into it in the best way he can to support his argument.........you bought into it, tell me what extremist points was I using my guess is you got it from what someone else was saying not me I will check though but please feel free to clarify.

So let me ask you: What would you tell someone who wants to forbid computer games all together? They have no use at all except a little bit of fun, but honestly, you can survive without. They're also at the base of aggressions from young children and as such very dangerous for society.

What has banning computer games got to do with this thread? what has banning anything got to do with this thread?

 

[Binky the Bomb]

Omg ban, he wants me to die IRL…

*scratches head* Erm, ok. Did Rome open the colloseum again?
Got to admit though, it would be a fun reality game show "How strong is your faith?"

Winner receives a pardon from whatever diety they beleive in. Athiest get a free pint at the bar.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I haven't given any extremist examples. Part of the frustration debating with Tho is that if you don't spell out every meaning of something he will dig into it in the best way he can to support his argument.........you bought into i never mention extremism, so you tell me what extremist points was I using?

The thing is, i'm not asking for clarification to support my arguments(aka, trap), i'm asking because i want to understand what people mean, what they are saying and THEN comment on that point of view.

Commenting on someones view, without first asking "why", is as productive as debating on a schoolyard about who's dad is the greatest.

Like i said, people have a problem with taking everything as an assault or a sinister plot to destroy their epeen.

 

[Mojo]

Like i said, people have a problem with taking everything as an assault or a sinister plot to destroy their epeen.

Some people just don't have the time to keep clarifying, You know how I feel about religion and I don't feel I need to (in this arena at lest) spent an age justifying my feelings again and again. We have been over it countless times, can you remember that last time I asked you to clarify your beliefs or to justify them? We have done it before I don't need to keep asking, I can understand going over the same ground for the benefit of people who have not engaged in this topic here before but you don't qualify we talked the same talk last year on more than a few occasions and probably the year before that too.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Some people just don't have the time to keep clarifying, You know how I feel about religion and I don't feel I need to (in this arena at lest) spent an age justifying my feelings again and again. We have been over it countless times, can you remember that last time I asked you to clarify your beliefs or to justify them? We have done it before I don't need to keep asking, I can understand going over the same ground for the benefit of people who have not engaged in this topic here before but you don't qualify we talked the same talk last year on more than a few occasions and probably the year before that too.

Well, to take a page out of your book(in a non-offensive manner if you will), i have a bit more important things to remember then who i talked about this with and where people stand. But, as said, all you have to do is say(as you did a few posts back) and that's it. But i think it's fair to say, that there's no need for "personal" things, if all you could do is say "I don't mind talking about this."

But fair enough point, this discussion is rather annual, ut also peoples opinions and minds, points of views and ideas change, so it always brings something. I believe it does anyway.

 

[Fafnir]

They're also at the base of aggressions from young children and as such very dangerous for society.

This statement is just to ease the burden from the parents, if parents just took their time with their kids, the kids would not become agressive and stuff.

I can only take myself as an example if all theese "reports" where right, then i would be a dead after served time in jail for using different kinds of drugs, and killing a few people on the way. But i'm not.

And thru my work i see how alot of parents handle their kids, and i'm horrified to see how they alot of them do it, and i'm not suprised we have all theese problems we have.

If your kid its your responsibility, but its so easy to shift the blame.

 

[Jupiter]

The way religion is evolving atm scares me..... replace the word religion with fundamentalist.............. reminds me of the life of brian "are you the peoples front of judia?" "What?!? fuck no!, splitters!"

 

[crispy]

Ah, for the day when we just threw the bible thumpers into a stone arena filled with lions and tigers.
Least the animals were well fed. Whiskers christian, now with 10% more piety.

But they might get that nasty aftertaste of 'burning in hell'

 

[Gorbachioo]

No offence dude, but this post shows how clueless you are.

Yeah..... Care to explain why?


And tohtori: Mojo is right, you keep derailing these conversations by creating new discussions over some minor details.


No one is saying that religion is 100% bad. There are good and bad things to it, but there's more bad than good.

And yes. Religion is dying in Europe. Compare Europe today and a hundred years ago. People are more educated these days and because of that able to think for themselves. But obviously not all....

Little offtopic question for tohtori: Whats with the viking gods ?