What do you believe?

[Jeremiah]

in science you dont " believe" in theories , this in itself is mixing up empiri and faith

Dont you hold to a belief or premise and then try to prove it?

 

[Sharma]

im not giving up till everybody disagrees with me!

Not hard now is it?

 

[Gorbachioo]

Erm.. It seems you are mixing up knowledge and belief. Knowledge is based entirely upon fact and evidence. Belief does not require to be - there can be rational thought behind belief based upon facts or evidence, but belief does not require everything to have been quantified. (Hence its called belief).

For example - we do not know evolution is how we came to be, but many believe it to be, because there is some evidence or facts which show it to be a possibility.

I think you'll find many people believe in "a" God because of some evidence or facts which are enough for them. Yes, they dont have 100% proof in the existance of anything supernatural, but thats ok because they "believe" it, they dont "know" it. And we all use this faith throughout our lives. Afterall, how many people do you know wont drive a car or use a mobile phone before they know every little detail of how it works? We just use them and trust them to do what they are meant to do.

At this point you could say "I don't need to know everything, because I trust that the "proof" that it all works is quantifiable somewhere, by someone else, and could be explained to me so that I know exactly how it works".

Guess what, people who have faith in God feel the exact same thing, that at some point it will all make sense, that it will be crystal clear - that its possible to know theres a God. This may be at the end of their lives or time or whatever, but they believe that one day they will know.

I dont think there will ever be irrefutable proof that a God exists, because we'll be using methods from our sphere of physics and science to test for something which is outside our boundaries. So we are mainly left with other reasons for believing, many which are philosophical and subjective - and therefore unable to be universally quantifiable.

So leave people to their reasons for believing in a God - just because you dont understand them or agree with them doesnt make them any less valid to them. If you want people to "scientifically prove" their reasons, then give them a tool capable of testing for supernatural entities. Otherwise give your "crusade" a rest.

We have been trough this over and over again. You wouldnt think like that about someone who believes in Santa, you wouldnt think like that about someone who believes in some wierd ancient african religion. So why are mainstream religions any different? You would not respect a man who believes in Santa. There is_NO_difference. If this is still unclear then look up the spaghetti monster thing. If you then still dont understand this then im truly sorry for you.


And for tohtori: Without religion we would still have values such as dont steal, dont kill, respect and love one another because our society needs those things. We wouldnt be able to live together without them. So what does that leave us with? Stupid rules like dont have sex, dont use condoms etc... Honestly i cant think of any useful moral value that we wouldnt have without religions.


And if your going to comment this, please make sure that it hasnt been answered already. Im getting tired of repeating the same stuff over and over again.

 

[Sharma]

Stupid rules like dont have sex, dont use condoms etc... Honestly i cant think of any useful moral value that we wouldnt have without religions.

That's only Catholics iirc..

Even so, I think the pope actually said a statement to use them not so long ago.

 

[old.Tohtori]

And for tohtori: Without religion we would still have values such as dont steal, dont kill, respect and love one another because our society needs those things. We wouldnt be able to live together without them. So what does that leave us with? Stupid rules like dont have sex, dont use condoms etc... Honestly i cant think of any useful moral value that we wouldnt have without religions.


And if your going to comment this, please make sure that it hasnt been answered already. Im getting tired of repeating the same stuff over and over again.

Well, how about you answer something i post then? And not just take word here and there to suit your needs and not actually answer at all. Might save you the "trouble".

"Without religion we would still have..."

You don't know that. Like you yourself said. Noone could know that. So how can you use it as both a defensive and offensive point in your arguments?

 

[crispy]

Dont you hold to a belief or premise and then try to prove it?

In science its called a hypothesis, which basically is 'i know X, and ive got the feeling it also causes Y (for example), now if this is true i can test it by doing Z'. Its more of a hunch than a belief...

 

[Gorbachioo]

Well, how about you answer something i post then? And not just take word here and there to suit your needs and not actually answer at all. Might save you the "trouble".

"Without religion we would still have..."

You don't know that. Like you yourself said. Noone could know that. So how can you use it as both a defensive and offensive point in your arguments?

I'll take that back then. I do know that we would still have those important values.

And i think you know very well that you've lost this little debate long time ago but you keep trying to prove that there are good things in religion. And yes, there are. I admit that. But theres just more bad than good to it. Its simple as that. And even if nothing but good things came from religion it would still be a lie. If i created my own religion with rules that most people would consider good, you wouldnt respect my belief in it. Theres no difference.


Just admit that you're wrong..... please!

 

[Sharma]

Just admit that you're wrong..... please!

Oh come off it, you're only saying that because the only thing you're argueing is that you're 100% correct and the 'facts' you're basing on are your own opinions.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I'll take that back then. I do know that we would still have those important values.

And i think you know very well that you've lost this little debate long time ago but you keep trying to prove that there are good things in religion. And yes, there are. I admit that. But theres just more bad than good to it. Its simple as that. And even if nothing but good things came from religion it would still be a lie. If i created my own religion with rules that most people would consider good, you wouldnt respect my belief in it. Theres no difference.


Just admit that you're wrong..... please!

You take your statements back, because i was right in saying you were wrong in your previous statement? Fair enough. Let's forget that point completely then and take a few steps back.

You say there are good things in religion, which i said earlier, and what you wanted liloe to say to you, so, i was right again?

But... i should admit i'm wrong? About?

And i lost? And even if it was a race, you just admitted i was right. How is that losing?

Oh and by the way, since you KNOW we would be something if there was no religion, do tell next weeks lottery numbers too.

And even if you don't get the above, maybe you'll get this:

Don't you dare implement i wouldn't respect your belief in whatever you choose to believe or do in your life, as i'm not the one calling other people names and disrespecting their chosen way of life.

 

[Gorbachioo]

I said that religion is not 100% bad. Doesnt mean its good.

Its bullshit and its harmful bullshit.

 

[Iceforge]

I shall give those reasons once more then.


No evidence. You wouldnt believe in Santa Claus without evidence, so why would you believe in god without evidence? You wouldnt respect someone who believed in Santa Claus without evidence, so why would you respect someone who believes in god without evidence? Both are stories made up by man to make certain people behave like they want to.

And why do i hate religion so much? First of all, it kills millions of people a year by banning condoms. Second of all, if we dont get rid of religion now, there will be a time when you and i wont be asked whether we want to believe in it.


And for iceforge: The bible tells you to kill everyone who work on sundays. Do you REALLY want to take your morals from there? And yea yea i know.... its fundamentalism to take THAT part literally. Ive heard that before, but who decides what to take literally? Taking your moral values from a 2000 year old book is just retarded.

I am not taking my morals or ethics from any book and neither are Christians, actually.
But some of them only see a reason to be nice to everybody and obey the morals, i.e. not murdering, not sleeping with thy neighbours wife, not stealing and all those commandments that Moses carved on the top of the mountain in the book of myth, because they think that if they obey those moral standards, they will be heading to an ethernal bliss in the clouds and if not they will go to hell.
For that sake, I say keep religion. If they seriously can't see another reason not to kill each other, then keep it.

Some of them go further and claim that "All moral values comes from the bible" and there you have posted the best example of why not.
If you ask a Christian then, as a follow up, why does he not kill everybody who works on Sundays, he will tell you that he has sorted that part of. Well, how could he do that, if he did not have some moral BESIDES the bible to begin with that told him that it was wrong to kill people on that premise?

Don't get me wrong in my arguements, I am by no mean religious and I haven't been since I was 7 or 8 (the time I stopped believing in Santa as well)
I am just telling you, that by no means are there any reason to hate on peoples right to be religious. There is clearly a right to be angry whenever they press those religious believes on to you or use them to limit you!

Also someone else adressed me, asking me how religion could effect me in Denmark.
What kind of boggus question is that?
I was actually pressured into confirming my faith (at a point where I hadn't believes in god in 5-6 years already, it felt like having to say santa claus was real) with unbelieveable social consequences if I didn't (unbearable would also be a correct word for someone age 13)
And while on the issue of confirming, during that year where student have to confirm their faith, in Denmark they schedule school accordingly so you have time to go to the priest 1 time pr. week and learn about Christianity.
Surely, you can pick not to participate if your parents allow that, but why should is such a thing limited to the Christian faith, just because it is the faith of the majority?
Why is there school during the Ramadan?
Or other religions spiritual seasons?
Why had a student in my class who was from Thailand, I must admit I cannot remember her religion, but I do remember she was confirmed in her faith 2 years prior to the rest of us and she had trouble getting off from school to participate in that. 1 religion being completely restricted and another have it actually scheduled into the program? What kind of favourisme is that?
My first school (PUBLIC) which I attended for Kindergarten and 1st through 6th grade started every day with a public prayer which you was obliged to participate in.
My birthtown was 50% filled with fundamentalist Christians, which resulted in some rather unfortunate incidents during my childhood as I was rather outspoken about my skepticism of the bible. Apperently it is not viewed as something to tolerate when a 13 year old ponders the question about how much God had to fuck the virgin Mary to make her pregnant.
Me and my 2 best friends was refered to by half the town as "The Devil Kids" due to not believing in God.
During football matches at the public playing field, me and my friends had a lot of fun. When the Christian kids came, that usually ended. We often played together, as we didn't care and they couldn't really tell us to go away due to their faith, but if we missed the goal and said a curse word, like "DAMNIT!" we was shunned and if any adult was nearby they would get out of their way to tell us to stop that language or leave the area (again, public area)

But surely, I can't have been limited or pressure or have had any problems with religion in Denmark you say and I say thats just plain ignorant to assume.

Also another reason why it is really not that smart a question is that I am also influenced by large scale things, such as American politics, like every breathing human on earth are now days and when America choose not to invest in stemcell research it could influence people I know and love and ultimately it might even influence me some day that we don't have a cure for a wide range of illnesses that could be cured through stemcell research.

 

[Iceforge]

In science its called a hypothesis, which basically is 'i know X, and ive got the feeling it also causes Y (for example), now if this is true i can test it by doing Z'. Its more of a hunch than a belief...

And actually after that they say "Hmm, alright, I thing Y is caused by X because when I do Z, Y does happen. But then, if I do Q then Y should not happen, lets try that and see if I can prove my hypothesis wrong!"

 

[Iceforge]

OH, I noticed you what he was talking about. You do NEVER believe in a Theory, that is a mixup of words, becasue THEORY is not the same thing in every day speak as in science terms. Before something becomes a Theory in science, it has to be proved to be right(and often through several individial tests) and all attempts to disprove it must have failed.
If you manage to DISPROVE a theory, it is no longer a valid theory.

 

[dub]

Dont you hold to a belief or premise and then try to prove it?

no , you start with data

 

[tris-]

So what does that leave us with? Stupid rules like dont have sex, dont use condoms etc...-

this is one of the worst things about religion.

your body is gods temple? FUCK OFF!

its no ones fucking temple except for the personality that owns it. if they want consentiual sex with another person, thats upto them and its upto them if they protect or dont.

this so called god should have no bearing on anyones life, and i imagine life would only be better if some fucking idiot didnt think him up in the first place.

 

[old.Tohtori]

By the way, a follow up question of sorts:

when you say "religion", do you mean all and every religion, or do you mean just the "god jesus" thing?

Because many of the discussion points here, like killing in the name of(queue guitar riff) god, no condoms etc, your body is gods temple, is only on that bible religion.

 

[Binky the Bomb]

I beeive I am an idiot, that the whole human race are idiots, and that everything we produce is the swawn of idiocy.

It helps me sleep at night.

 

[soze]

I believe all religion was invented as a way to control the population and people years ago saw this and went off to form a religion of thier own and that has been responsible for for many wars. Religion is the route of all evil thats what i believe.

 

[Gorbachioo]

By the way, a follow up question of sorts:

when you say "religion", do you mean all and every religion, or do you mean just the "god jesus" thing?

Because many of the discussion points here, like killing in the name of(queue guitar riff) god, no condoms etc, your body is gods temple, is only on that bible religion.

When I say religion i mean one of the mainstream religions. And yes yes yeeeeeeeeeeees ok. Buddhism might not have rule A, Islam doesnt have rule B, wierd hippie religion doesnt have rule C... jajaja. I do realise that when we talk about the rules they dont apply to ALL the religions but thats hardly the point of this discussion so dont derail the conversation with that.

 

[old.Tohtori]

When I say religion i mean one of the mainstream religions. And yes yes yeeeeeeeeeeees ok. Buddhism might not have rule A, Islam doesnt have rule B, wierd hippie religion doesnt have rule C... jajaja. I do realise that when we talk about the rules they dont apply to ALL the religions but thats hardly the point of this discussion so dont derail the conversation with that.

Well you're not following it at all, not answering anything and claiming that you have to repeat your points, when you don't answer questions about your points, so don't try and get smart with me.

It was a "follow up question", not a derailer, if you CAN understand that.

All your examples, of bad things about religion, were about Christianity, and not even all belong in that, so i'm quite curious on what you base them on and what religion you are against.

Say, as an example, what is bad about Buddhism in your mind? As it's more popular and iwdespread then Bible religions.

Or do you have some thing you hate about ALL religions, to give you the point of "religion is bad"?

 

[Gorbachioo]

Well obviously i cant individually tell what i like and dont like about every religion in the world. So i'll just say that believing in all of them is stupid and some of them are harmful. Good enough?

 

[Laddey]

We hit 200 mark! 250 anybody?!

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well obviously i cant individually tell what i like and dont like about every religion in the world. So i'll just say that believing in all of them is stupid and some of them are harmful. Good enough?

Yes, it clears up your opinion alot.

You've gone from: "All religion is dangerous and stupid." to "Some religions are dangerous, i think their all stupid, but not all are bad for humanity."

Am i correct? Because that's a LOT better opinion on it all, and one that many religious people can agree on too.

I think this thread can agree on a few things:

Religion has it's good and it's bad. In personal and global level.
There are many different religions, and saying all of them are extremist is wrong.
There are even more religious people around, and saying all of them are dangerous or even lsightly harmful, is equally wrong.
God can't be proven, yet, but believing in a god or several, is up to an individual.
Everyone should believe what they will, with all freedom, or not believe, as long as it's not forced on to others.

Sums it up? Yes, no?

 

[Sharma]

I beeive I am an idiot, that the whole human race are idiots, and that everything we produce is the swawn of idiocy.

It helps me sleep at night.

HAHAHAH!

Fantastic answer!

 

[Iceforge]

Got to quote one of my favourit quotes on the subject!

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things THAT takes religion!" - Steven Weinberg, Physicist

 

[Gorbachioo]

Yes, it clears up your opinion alot.

You've gone from: "All religion is dangerous and stupid." to "Some religions are dangerous, i think their all stupid, but not all are bad for humanity."

Am i correct? Because that's a LOT better opinion on it all, and one that many religious people can agree on too.

I think this thread can agree on a few things:

Religion has it's good and it's bad. In personal and global level.
There are many different religions, and saying all of them are extremist is wrong.
There are even more religious people around, and saying all of them are dangerous or even lsightly harmful, is equally wrong.
God can't be proven, yet, but believing in a god or several, is up to an individual.
Everyone should believe what they will, with all freedom, or not believe, as long as it's not forced on to others.

Sums it up? Yes, no?

Well..... no. All religion should be banned as effectively as possible because if they excist in any form there is always the risk that fundamentalism gets more support. Once they're gone, then they're gone for good. When things get tougher, people turn to religions and then the loonies get more power. And when the fundamentalists get in to power, they dont ask us do we want to believe in it, because in their mind they are helping us. Thats usually how it goes.

And honestly i cant think of a single religion that is a better option than no religion at all. Perhaps buddhism comes close but i really dont know buddhism so well so i dont know.

 

[old.Tohtori]

By that logic, shouldn't we ban porn because there might be people making childporn? How about banning alcohol because someone MIGHT drive someone over while intoxicated? Or how about banning condoms because someone might have an allergy to rubbers and die?

I said in another thread, that this world is enough of a pamper state to add more "let's not do this because something MIGHT happen".

Just because something MIGHT happen, doesn't mean it will.

And how do you propose we ban religion? Ok, no more churches and such, but are you gonna start throwing people in jail if they believe in god in their mind? What's the practical way to ban religion?

 

[AngelHeal]

I believe in my self

this is actually very important

i believe in the scientific part...

i mean, how many gods where there first? Romans/Vikings/German/Asians/South Americans (aztec ppl)/ etc etc etc all ahd different gods, some even had more.
Think of where our days come from, roman / german gods.

and now nobody believes in that...

I'am actually pretty close to believing the story of Jesus and Caesar. Even though that has much cracks.

Everybody believed the camelot tales as we play em, big castle.. etc etc.

Even though the movie King Arthur was (some parts) based on scientific parts it's more realistic then some castel where the sun shines every day etc.

You believe what you are told(general fact) and untill somebody comes up with better facts, you most likely won't change.
Maybe adjust ur vision, but I doubt much people really change.

 

[Gorbachioo]

By that logic, shouldn't we ban porn because there might be people making childporn? How about banning alcohol because someone MIGHT drive someone over while intoxicated? Or how about banning condoms because someone might have an allergy to rubbers and die?

I said in another thread, that this world is enough of a pamper state to add more "let's not do this because something MIGHT happen".

Just because something MIGHT happen, doesn't mean it will.

And how do you propose we ban religion? Ok, no more churches and such, but are you gonna start throwing people in jail if they believe in god in their mind? What's the practical way to ban religion?

Porn and Child porn are not linked in any way. Whether theres porn or not has no effect on the amount of child porn. I dont think there would be any bad results from banning alcohol. But for some reason people want to keep drinking it. (As do i -,-). Condoms save millions of lives every year so those few deaths arent enough to make them a bad thing.

The chance of it happening is enough of a reason to ban religion because it has very few positive effects on society. And some fundamentalist revolution in Europe is not my main concern here. If there is a god then someone will ALWAYS take it to the next level. For example, trying to prevent africans from using condoms. Aslong as there is a god these things will happen.


When people are rich and educated religions die on their own if they are not supported financially and if the general attitude towards them is not positive.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Porn and Child porn are not linked in any way. Whether theres porn or not has no effect on the amount of child porn. I dont think there would be any bad results from banning alcohol. But for some reason people want to keep drinking it. (As do i -,-). Condoms save millions of lives every year so those few deaths arent enough to make them a bad thing.

The chance of it happening is enough of a reason to ban religion because it has very few positive effects on society. And some fundamentalist revolution in Europe is not my main concern here. If there is a god then someone will ALWAYS take it to the next level. For example, trying to prevent africans from using condoms. Aslong as there is a god these things will happen.


When people are rich and educated religions die on their own if they are not supported financially and if the general attitude towards them is not positive.

I'll asnwer like you: But for some reason, people want to keep believing.

It's as simple as that. Taking away funding, getting rich, being more educated, these would have zero effect on people believing in god/gods, doing what they do and so forth. General attitude is bad towards a lot of things, but still they haven't died out. ALOT worse things then religion is coming from technology, industry, money, greed, and have what you will.

You can take my examples, and "explain" how their not that bad, but it doesn't moot the point. There can always happen bad things, from anything. I bet if we took some things you like to do, we could say all the bad stuff that happens from it. Drive a car? Smoke? Drink? Eat meat? Don't grow your own food? The fact of the matter is, that simply because you don't believe, and because some people do bad things in the name of religion, isn't a valid reason to kill all religion completely.

And still waiting on any other way to "kill religion", then with concentration camps and gas chambers.