News Whaling Petition

[Scouse]

You city dwellers that haven`t hunted ever should not be allowed to eat an meat ever.

You should take the time to bother reading posts before spouting utter drivel Jail Bait.

 

[rynnor]

Finding the racism card played by rynnor hilarious after his comments on North Korea.

Would those be the comments where everyone else said you were wrong perhaps

Being against a totalitarian state is not racism - perhaps you need to look up the definition.

 

[Jail Bait]

You should take the time to bother reading posts before spouting utter drivel Jail Bait.

When was the last time that you went hunting for large mammals not just gamebirds

 

[rynnor]

I'm objecting to whaling on cruelty (and species preservation) grounds - which most whaling "activists" do.

It's fuck all to do with racism. That's the argument of pro-whalers trying to paint anti-whalers in a bad light. It seems to have worked with you...

I am no stooge of the whalers - I come to all my viewpoints by independant thought not from any one source. I had to overcome my own bias to reach this point - like you I grew up in the 70s/80s where Greenpeace achieved a massive dominance on the subject painting whale's as a special case that should be dealt with differently to everything else we hunt and eat.

But if you can step aside from your cultural bias and look at the situation objectively there really isnt a moral gulf between what we do to cows/pigs etc. and whats done to whales in terms of cruelty.

As to preservation they are not going extinct whereas things like the atlantic cod and tuna that you'll happily eat without any bad conscience really are in danger of extinction due to over fishing but I guess thats ok because they arent whales huh?

 

[Wazzerphuk]

You can be against it, that's fine. I'm against the way the place is run too.

But when you spout utter prejudiced bullshit as fact like you know what's going on inside there is ridiculous, it shows a total cultural ignorance bordering on casual racism. The statement you made was utterly stupid and merely serves to perpetuate negative feelings based on utterly no evidence. If you make claims like that, you need to be able to back them up on something more than your xenophobia.

 

[noblok]

As to preservation they are not going extinct whereas things like the atlantic cod and tuna that you'll happily eat without any bad conscience really are in danger of extinction due to over fishing but I guess thats ok because they arent whales huh?

Then again, these examples could make a case against allowing hunting on whales: we, as humans, don't seem to be able to hunt in moderation . (I know it's sort of a slippery slope argument, but on the other hand it also just seems to be an empirically supported fact that moderation is not something we excell at...)

 

[Scouse]

But if you can step aside from your cultural bias and look at the situation objectively there really isnt a moral gulf between what we do to cows/pigs etc. and whats done to whales in terms of cruelty.

As to preservation they are not going extinct whereas things like the atlantic cod and tuna that you'll happily eat without any bad conscience really are in danger of extinction due to over fishing but I guess thats ok because they arent whales huh?

On more than one occasion I've pointed out it's not cultural bias. On more than one occasion I've pointed out that whaling is distinctly more cruel than the conveyor-belt-style killing of farmed cattle.

I avoid cod because I can't tell where it comes from and yes, it's over-fished. I try to only eat line-caught tuna.

Do you want to figure out some more random animals, that aren't whales and have fuck all to do with their suffering when killed, to ask me about in a futile attempt to "out" my "hypocrisy"?


What part of me attempting to "eat ethically" (which I've done since my teens) are people finding so hard to come to grips with? Is a principled stance something to be attacked for now?

When was the last time that you went hunting for large mammals not just gamebirds

Last year. With g/f's dad. Shot and killed a deer, butchered it myself under his instruction (he used to be a butcher). Made a pigs ear of the job but I'm not very experienced at it. I don't shoot (or fish) regularly. Fishing much more than shooting. I clean and gut the fish myself and am perfectly OK with it. Have been all my life....as I've pointed out in the thread previously...

Either way, what the fuck has the size of the animal got to do with it? It seems that, coming from Canada, you're stuck in some archaic "killing a big thing makes you a man" or somesuch olde-worlde macho bullshit.

I'm also not fussed about seal culling. I don't know much about it - but if it done the right way and doesn't cause unnecessary pain then I don't have a problem with it.


The only thing I care about in this thread is that whaling causes more physical pain than is necessary. Therefore it's bad.



Next.

 

[Jail Bait]

The only thing I care about in this thread is that whaling causes more physical pain than is necessary. Therefore it's bad.
Next.

That is why I brought up the hunting large animals thing (cause I know you don't know) is that hunting inflicts pain to animals.

Depending on the shot placement and weapon used the animal could die right away or die up to an hour later or not at all.

So because all animals killed aren't painless then they shouldn't be allowed to continue?????

What if that mouse that got caught doesn't die right away in the trap are you going to take it to the Vet?

Even shooting horses doesn't work perfectly, sometimes they move their head at the last second and then you have a horse running around with a hole in its head.

 

[Raven]

You city dwellers that haven`t hunted ever should not be allowed to eat an meat ever. If you hunt with a bow and arrow the animal can take a half hour to die. Boo Hoo it is food.

In fact one of the deer that I shot last year had an arrow embedded in it, probably for weeks.

Whales are no different to any other animal.

You all probably get all weepy when the Eskimos go out an harvest the seal pups too.

In a civilised country like the UK, hunting with a bow is illegal for that very reason. Hunting any animal will occasionally cause it harm, that's why you always hunt with either a dog or someone who can track an injured animal so that you can do something about it. Its completely different from whale hunting.

We tend to not just charge around the countryside shooting at stuff out the back of a pick-up though. Horses for courses.

 

[Jail Bait]

In a civilised country like the UK, hunting with a bow is illegal for that very reason. Hunting any animal will occasionally cause it harm, that's why you always hunt with either a dog or someone who can track an injured animal.

We tend to not just charge around the countryside shooting at stuff out the back of a pick-up though. Horses for courses.

We have areas that are bow or crossbow only because of the proximity of houses.

No shot should be taken unless it is guaranteed a kill shot

BTW hunting with a dog and out of a vehicle is illegal too.

 

[Raven]

Oh and to be clear, I don't mean using the dog for the actual hunting but for the tracking.

 

[Jail Bait]

Oh and to be clear, I don't mean using the dog for the actual hunting but for the tracking.

If we spend the time to hike back to the camp to get a dog, that would give the grizzly time to find the kill.

There is nice tracking devices that light up blood trails to make tracking easy (they are used because a kill shot doesn`t mean the animal drops in its tracks)

 

[Damini]

I wouldn't eat whale because it is a creature that has a language structure in place that contains its own unique syntax. I wouldn't eat primates because I've seen a video of a gorilla that can master sign language, and also when monkeys wear bowler hats it makes me happy. I wouldn't eat a parrot because they are far too intelligent. I don't eat cod because it's over farmed. I wouldn't eat cat because I have been raised with cats, and I love their quirks and personalities. I wouldn't eat dog because it is an empathic creature, evolved to have a symbiotic relationship with humans.

Everyone has their own moral code that dictates how they behave. Everyone has loopholes probably big enough to drive a lorry through, because your morals are not an entirely rational response.

That said, I'm surprised anyone approves of the hunting of whales? They make songs. Beautiful songs. They are graceful, and magnificent, and we don't even have a vague comprehension of just how evolved they are; we're just beginning to understand the methodology of their languages. We don't need to kill them - it's not even as if they're shitting out crude oil. It's not as if people will starve to death without whale meat either. Shed loads of that stuff just ends up in catfood.

It makes me sad when I watch videos of them being killed. It's like watching someone tearing apart a painting, burning an antique violin, and murdering an animal all at once.

 

[Scouse]

That is why I brought up the hunting large animals thing (cause I know you don't know) is that hunting inflicts pain to animals.

Oh, you know do you? Even though I told you otherwise? Guess I'm just a liar.


Either way, we're not talking about recreational hunting. We're comparing farmed cattle, killed in a systematic fashion with all sorts of legal loopholes that (UK) farms have to go through to minimise suffering to killing a fuckload of whales in a way that causes needless suffering.

If they harpooned cows from across a field and left them there for 30+ minutes writhing in agony before butchering them alive I wouldn't eat beef.

 

[DaGaffer]

If they harpooned cows from across a field and left them there for 30+ minutes writhing in agony before butchering them alive I wouldn't eat beef.

You can do that in Cambodia with an RPG.



(so I'm told).

 

[Jail Bait]

Either way, we're not talking about recreational hunting. We're comparing farmed cattle, killed in a systematic fashion with all sorts of legal loopholes that (UK) farms have to go through to minimise suffering to killing a fuckload of whales in a way that causes needless suffering.

If they harpooned cows from across a field and left them there for 30+ minutes writhing in agony before butchering them alive I wouldn't eat beef.

You do know that peoples other than Japanese hunt whales too but since many do gooders sign petitions they can't or only allowed one every couple of years. So instead of providing for themselves they are provided for (Removing all their self worth)

Why the fuck do the lot of you think for one minute that everyone in the world should be like you, conforming to what YOU think is right or wrong.

I though the lot of you would be more understanding of others in the world but it appears that the Americans from the FW board are (which surprises the hell out of me)

 

[Damini]

YEAH! Killing whales improves self esteem!

 

[Jail Bait]

YEAH! Killing whales improves self esteem!

It does to the peoples of the North. (something peoples like yourself would never appreciate)

BTW have you

heard an Elk bugle? (a song that rivals a whale)

a cow call for a missing calf for two weeks?

Tasted cougar?

Had black bear Ham for Christmas?

Had a pig raised from a piglet to be a pet? (they are smarter than dogs and tastier too IMHO)

 

[Damini]

What arrogance it is that we assume we have the right to destroy any living creature we stumble across, simply because our stomachs rumble. Cultures adapt, values change, communities evolve.

We share this planet with such amazing lives, and dismiss them as unintelligent, as meat wrapped in motion, simply because what? They don't have opposable thumbs? They don't decide to invent the car?

No, I've never heard an elk sing. I have never read a study though on the complicated syntax structure of elk communication, inferring a sense of self identification and by extension, the potential for sentience, either.

I'm sure Elks are very nice though, and I don't plan to murder any soon.

 

[Jail Bait]

What arrogance it is that we assume we have the right to destroy any living creature we stumble across, simply because our stomachs rumble. Cultures adapt, values change, communities evolve.

What arrogance is it that you think that you should assimilate everyone.

We share this planet with such amazing lives, and dismiss them as unintelligent, as meat wrapped in motion, simply because what? They don't have opposable thumbs? They don't decide to invent the car?

Did I ever say that any animal was unintelligent?

In fact I stated that a cow will morn for its calf and a pig is very intelligent (more so than a dog)

No, I've never heard an elk sing. I have never read a study though on the complicated syntax structure of elk communication, inferring a sense of self identification and by extension, the potential for sentience, either.

I'm sure Elks are very nice though, and I don't plan to murder any soon.

Elk (singular and plural) are nice but VERY taste

Don't knock it until you try it

 

[Damini]

So, despite all this, you still see it as our right to kill whatever we chose?

 

[Embattle]

YEAH! Killing whales improves self esteem!

Yeah sure it does since they've a bigger nob....although sometimes it might be hard to believe when looking at replies on this forum

 

[Scouse]

Why the fuck do the lot of you think for one minute that everyone in the world should be like you, conforming to what YOU think is right or wrong.

All I've said is that I think whale hunting is needlessly cruel and therefore I think it's bad.

I haven't the power to make people do what I think, nor would I wish to. What I'm doing is expressing an opinion - and providing reasons to back up my opinions.

Sorry if you can't grasp that bijou factette. I thought people from the US were dumb, but it appears to be a problem that affects Canadians too



Edit: I've also said I'm not opposed to killing animals - if it's done humanely. You are arguing for "needless pain" whilst killing them...

 

[Jail Bait]

Edit: I've also said I'm not opposed to killing animals - if it's done humanely. You are arguing for "needless pain" whilst killing them...

So if the Whalers killed whales cleanly and without needless pain than you would support them.

 

[Damini]

Jail Bait - is there any animal in the world you don't think we have a right to kill for food?

 

[DaGaffer]

Jail Bait - is there any animal in the world you don't think we have a right to kill for food?

Actually I don't think there is any animal that's off limits; we are after all, a carnivorous species. But that doesn't mean we have to, and arguments about being part of a particular country or people's culture is a load of bollocks; there are plenty of examples of culture behaviours that are abhorrent to the majority and stamped out (the last Maori cannibal died less then a 100 years ago - should we bring that back? Its part of their culture after all...)

As a species we're incredibly bad at sustainable industrialised hunting. In reality we shouldn't even be fishing in most places; we're turning the world's oceans into deserts as it is (in which case "saving the whales" may become moot).

 

[Scouse]

So if the Whalers killed whales cleanly and without needless pain than you would support them.

Interesting question (the first that's been posed).

I wouldn't actively support them. But that's about it.

Actually I don't think there is any animal that's off limits; we are after all, a carnivorous species. But that doesn't mean we have to, and arguments about being part of a particular country or people's culture is a load of bollocks; there are plenty of examples of culture behaviours that are abhorrent to the majority and stamped out (the last Maori cannibal died less then a 100 years ago - should we bring that back? Its part of their culture after all...)

As a species we're incredibly bad at sustainable industrialised hunting. In reality we shouldn't even be fishing in most places; we're turning the world's oceans into deserts as it is (in which case "saving the whales" may become moot).

Actually DaGaffer, we're omnivourous. Carnivores are meat-eaters only.

I disagree that there are no animals that should be off-limits. Primates should be off-limits. Anything numbers-threatened shouldn't be hunted either. I'd also put paid to the killing of any animal where it can be shown that it causes great social pain amongst that species. In the specific case of whales, regardless of other arguments we can't kill them without needless suffering - and that alone should be enough for us to stop doing so.

IMHO we're just embarking on a series of scientific explorations into our relationship with a variety of species and their relationships with each other. We, as a species, are recovering from 2000-years of a Christian belief system that told us that we're better than everything else and it's our sky-fairy-given right to exploit all of nature as we see fit. It's becoming increasingly apparent that that is a stupid way of looking at the world (almost as stupid as believing in organised religion).

However, I do agree with your point on "culture" being anything to do with killing animals and the insustainability of much of our industrialised hunting (esp. fishing) - and I think you've made your point pretty fucking well tbh

 

[rynnor]

I wouldn't eat whale because it is a creature that has a language structure in place that contains its own unique syntax. I wouldn't eat primates because I've seen a video of a gorilla that can master sign language, and also when monkeys wear bowler hats it makes me happy. I wouldn't eat a parrot because they are far too intelligent. I don't eat cod because it's over farmed. I wouldn't eat cat because I have been raised with cats, and I love their quirks and personalities. I wouldn't eat dog because it is an empathic creature, evolved to have a symbiotic relationship with humans.

I'm sorry Damini - perhaps you should not read this link...

The Intelligent Pig: The Smartest Domestic Animal in The World

The problem when you start making a special case for intelligence is that you start finding it in animals you dont want to find it in and then what do you do?

Theres also a big moral questionmark over seperating animals by intelligence - your implying that less intelligent things have less right to life.

I hate to make the analogy but believers in Eugenics had the same idea and applied it to humans.

Anyone who thinks the whale hunting question is simple and black and white is an idiot tbh.

 

[DaGaffer]

Actually DaGaffer, we're omnivourous. Carnivores are meat-eaters only.

yes yes, I know, but you take my point.

I disagree that there are no animals that should be off-limits. Primates should be off-limits. Anything numbers-threatened shouldn't be hunted either. I'd also put paid to the killing of any animal where it can be shown that it causes social pain amongst that species.

There will always be circumstances when we can and should eat pretty much anything if necessary. In the case of primates, there's a lot of shades of grey; some (baboons for instance) have to be hunted to keep numbers down; others (Gorillas, Orang-Utans) shouldn't be hunted because of the extinction threat, and Chimpanzees (even putting aside the moral aspects) shouldn't be eaten because of the health risk, but that still means there are many species of monkey that are fair game (pardon the pun). And I don't buy the "social pain" argument at all; you may as well just say "don't eat mammals".

IMHO we're just embarking on a series of scientific explorations into our relationship with a variety of species and their relationships with each other. We, as a species, are recovering from 2000-years of a Christian belief system that told us that we're better than everything else and it's our sky-fairy-given right to exploit all of nature as we see fit. It's becoming increasingly apparent that that is a stupid way of looking at the world (almost as stupid as believing in organised religion).

I think you're dumping too much blame onto religion. You only have to look at Australia and New Zealand to see humans can quite happily hunt entire species to extinction without the need for baby Jeebus' approval. The noble savage living in harmony with nature is as much a crock of shit as ideas about "dominion over the earth".

What humans really need to do is to start thinking long-term, not for altruistic or moral reasons, but purely out of self-interest. The problem is that short-term gratification is hardwired into our plains-ape brains.

 

[rynnor]

But when you spout utter prejudiced bullshit as fact like you know what's going on inside there is ridiculous, it shows a total cultural ignorance bordering on casual racism. The statement you made was utterly stupid and merely serves to perpetuate negative feelings based on utterly no evidence. If you make claims like that, you need to be able to back them up on something more than your xenophobia.

I said that if the North Korean team did badly their families might face reprisals - its a common fear of those who leave North Korea that their families will be punished - why do you think they are so afraid?

What I said was based on facts - unpalatable ones perhaps but facts nonetheless.

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | N Koreans risk lives for freedom

I picked that story as top of the search pile but its a commonly repeated theme.