News Whaling Petition

[Scouse]

And yes I don`t care what dies as long as it is taste.

/thread.

 

[TdC]

But you will criticize them, isn`t that the same......

what are you, a token American? can you not see the difference? it is not the same.

 

[DaGaffer]

Creatures like worms, mice and rabbits would even be better that chicken, should we stop eating chicken and beef because it doesn`t fit your cultural beliefs

Don't scoff; that's probably what's going to happen. Expect Krill to feature large in the diet of your grandchildren, for exactly the economic reasons I'm talking about. Culture has fuck all to do with it.

The Japanese may not have but North American Inuit peoples have for recorded history.

And now they have RVs, McDonalds and vegetables in their diet. Just because your ancestors did something doesn't mean you have the right (or the obligation) to continue the practice.

 

[rynnor]

Don't scoff; that's probably what's going to happen. Expect Krill to feature large in the diet of your grandchildren, for exactly the economic reasons I'm talking about. Culture has fuck all to do with it.

Fungi and bacterial cultures - thats what humans will be eating eventually I think.

 

[Scouse]

Fungi and bacterial cultures - thats what humans will be eating eventually I think.

Or Quorn, as it's commonly called...

 

[Cadelin]

Yep. Even after everyone has told you that it's fuck all to do with culture and given other reasons for their objections (mine based on cruelty alone) you still bang on your same broken drum...

How is it cruel though?

The fact that the animal suffers doesn't constitute cruelty. If the whale wasn't hunted it would still die somehow and probably in just as slow, painful way. It might starve to death, be eaten by a killer whale, beached and suffocated etc. Nature is horrifically cruel. The fact that humans haven't found a painless way to kill the whale doesn't mean the current way is cruel.

Purposefully using a more painful method would be cruel but that's not the case here.

 

[Jail Bait]

And now they have RVs, McDonalds and vegetables in their diet. Just because your ancestors did something doesn't mean you have the right (or the obligation) to continue the practice.

Our Inuit are far removed from anything like that.

The thing that is causing a lot of damage is alcohol, but with bringing back some of the old ways the young ones are starting to realize there is more to life than getting plastered

 

[Jail Bait]

Fungi and bacterial cultures - thats what humans will be eating eventually I think.

Soylent Green

 

[Jail Bait]

what are you, a token American?

I am going to get my mom to wash you mouth out with soap for saying that

 

[Damini]

Yay- I like to criticise other cultures because it makes me feel good!!111

So, is culture the universal get out of jail free card? If an action is derived from a cultural history, does that mean it's above critique?

I'm genuinely curious. Do you support (or refuse to pass judgement on) child brides? Female circumcision? Bull fighting? Infanticide of female babies? Or is it only with regards to hunting and the food chain?

 

[rynnor]

So, is culture the universal get out of jail free card? If an action is derived from a cultural history, does that mean it's above critique?

I'm genuinely curious. Do you support (or refuse to pass judgement on) child brides? Female circumcision? Bull fighting? Infanticide of female babies? Or is it only with regards to hunting and the food chain?

Its a fair question - child brides is a good one since its only about 150 years ago that 12 year olds could get married in this country - I guess it makes sense in a poor country without free access to contraceptives.

Female circumcision is a form of mutilation but then again there have been many cultures that practice mutilation as a form of coming of age ceremonies - I'm thinking of the Aboriginals rite of manhood where they slice the head of the penis so that its cloven like a kangaroo's.

I think a culture has to be evaluated as a whole - in the UK we dont have too many extreme practices yet we have social disintegration, we treat our old folk as inconvenient baggage and have high levels of stress - much of this would horrify other cultures.

Bull fighting I find personally abhorrent but it has declined massively and I figure it will disappear eventually - many people in the participating countries are against it.

I dont think infanticide of female babies is a part of anyones culture per se. In India/Pakistan its all about poor people who cant afford dowries - a practice that has been discouraged but still remains.

In China it was an unexpected side affect of the One child policy and the cultural desire for a son to carry on the family.

 

[Scouse]

We know why the chinese and indians kill their female babies. The question Dams wanted answering was: does something "bad" get to continue simply because it's part of someone's culture.

I think you've failed to address any of it. With a wooly "I think a culture has to be evaluated as a whole" followed by a load of shit that we all already know...

 

[rynnor]

We know why the chinese and indians kill their female babies. The question Dams wanted answering was: does something "bad" get to continue simply because it's part of someone's culture.

No I said its not part of anyones culture to kill female babies and then I gave reasons why its done.

Edit: There's no universal agreement on whats 'bad' - your looking at it from a Western cultural bias.

 

[Scouse]

Oh piss off rynnor. Looking at what from a "western cultural bias"...

 

[Jail Bait]

We know why the chinese and indians kill their female babies. The question Dams wanted answering was: does something "bad" get to continue simply because it's part of someone's culture.

I think you've failed to address any of it. With a wooly "I think a culture has to be evaluated as a whole" followed by a load of shit that we all already know...

What is Good or Bad is all relative to your beliefs

 

[Damini]

Yes. And the original question was specifically framed with "YOU" in it. Do *YOU* support...

Lots of evasion, no answers yet?

 

[Scouse]

Lots of evasion, no answers yet?

He's given us all the answers. We just can't see them because of our western cultural bias

 

[rynnor]

Oh piss off rynnor. Looking at what from a "western cultural bias"...

Everything really - even discussions of bad things is moot because these are cultural judgements.

Take human life itself - the bible had thou shalt not kill but then goes on to give a lot of exclusions and modern societies are pretty much the same.

Many cultures permit executions, abortion, expect armed services to kill people, allow mercy killings, euthanasia etc. etc.

 

[DaGaffer]

Everything really - even discussions of bad things is moot because these are cultural judgements.

Take human life itself - the bible had thou shalt not kill but then goes on to give a lot of exclusions and modern societies are pretty much the same.

Many cultures permit executions, abortion, expect armed services to kill people, allow mercy killings, euthanasia etc. etc.

Still not answering the question. What are YOUR views?

 

[rynnor]

I'm genuinely curious. Do you support (or refuse to pass judgement on) child brides? Female circumcision? Bull fighting? Infanticide of female babies?

Personally I'm against all of these to a degree - I think the female infanticide one is interesting since our culture is against it yet permits abortion - societies can be so hypocritical...

Child brides are generally part of arranged marriages which tend to turn out better than our western marriages. I am against them in our culture but I wouldnt condemn those who participate in them in other cultures.

Female circumcision/ Bull Fighting both seem pointlessly cruel to me but they are also both in decline (particularly female circumcision) and should disappear in our lifetimes.

 

[Scouse]

Infanticide and abortion are, I'd argue strongly, completely different things.

I, personally, see male circumcision as abuse too...

 

[rynnor]

Infanticide and abortion are, I'd argue strongly, completely different things.

Not really - we treat them culturally as different things but objectively they arent.

So who here condemns infanticide but supports abortion - should be an interesting one...

 

[Gumbo]

Infanticide and abortion are, I'd argue strongly, completely different things.

I, personally, see male circumcision as abuse too...

Anti Semite!!! We can start with the Godwins law right here!

To be honest, me too, it means the poor lad will never know the fun which can be had between a man, his foreskin and a willing and skillful partner.

Anyway, this hugie argument about what is culturally acceptable is never going to be won. There is no universal acceptance around the world of what is 'good' or allowed, it's all just opinions, which whilst we're all entitled to them does mean the odd circular argument going round and round and round and....etc

Can you imagine the world though, where we all held the same basic perception of what was allowed and what wasn't? If we all bowed to anyone with the slightest perception of something being cruel. We'd end up having to give in to the lowest denominator and yes, we would only eat synthetically created food. We'd have to be so careful about harvesting, incase we damaged a field mouses nest, which could have babies in, which could die a slow and painful death of starvation because the mother has been eaten by a combine harvester.

It simply doesn't work. There is an element of cruelty in everything, and someone said earlier that nature is crueler than any of us.

OK, you nail a whale with an explosive harpoon and it breathes it's last 30 minutes later on the deck of a ship.

You keep a bullock in a field for a year or so, aside from chopping it's balls off when it's very young, it's had a nice life, getting fattened up, fed on the best food, always watered, and with a nice snooze in the afternoon. It is then slaughtered in the most modern facility using the best and most careful techniques.

You don't get a lovely maiden come into the field, talk soothingly to the cow whilst it takes a slug to the brain and dies instantly. It's still rounded up and loaded into a wagon, which might be the first time that's happened in it's life. It's still transported often many miles to a slaughter house because the modern ethical standards mean all the local ones had to close. It's still herded into this tight environment with many other terrified cattle with noise, smells, banging and a good few slaps to keep them moving. Eventually it's pinned by a press whilst a man fires a bolt through it's forehead, this might kill it, it might not, and then it's straight onto the butchery.

That's cruel too, but it's the least cruel way we have found to do it.

I don't know what I'm saying, I'm in a rant mood today, see the budget thread, but basically there is no cruelty free world. There never will be as long as we want to eat. For me, I can accept it. I shoot, and eat what I shoot. I aim for an instant kill and normally get it, if not, I know how to dispatch what I have shot in the quickest an most humane way. My Father shot and I know that the line of my ancestors goes back at least to my Great Great Grandfather who also shot. I do see it as part of my culture, but in this utopian world where people cannot inflict any cruelty anywhere I wouldn't be able to.

 

[Scouse]

Not really - we treat them culturally as different things but objectively they arent.

Objectively they are.

Destruction of a non-sentient non-life incomplete collection of cells or the murder of a child.



Edit: And gumbo, I'm not arguing for a cruelty-free world. I'm arguing against unnecessary cruelty. And, like most things in the real world, there's grey areas.

 

[Gumbo]

Yup, and the grey area cannot be decided objectively. The vegan would say that milking a cow or stealing a chickens egg is unnecessarily cruel, the Inuit would say that harpooning a whale with a piece of jagged bone and butchering it alive is perfectly acceptable. Ah well.

 

[rynnor]

Objectively they are.

Destruction of a non-sentient non-life incomplete collection of cells or the murder of a child.

We do 20-24 week abortions of what are potentially viable babies in this country so dont give me that collection of cells crap - if it comes to it you are a collection of cells.

When you start talking about non-life you start sounding like a fascist talking about people who are non-people to me.

 

[Gumbo]

When you start talking about non-life you start sounding like a fascist talking about people who are non-people to me.

Oi, I mentioned Godwins law above don't steal my thunder

 

[rynnor]

Oi, I mentioned Godwins law above don't steal my thunder

Heh - I'm trying to skirt round the edges of Godwins law without invoking it.

The hypocrisy between being pro-abortion and anti-infanticide is illustrated by this hypothetical situation.

If a child is born prematurely at 6 months and a nurse smothered it she would stand trial for murder but if a doctor dices it up then vacuums it out thats legal???

 

[Scouse]

Have you actually seen a 20-week old fetus?

Sounds like you've been listening to the pope too much if you're equating abortion with murder. You sound like some miserable yank "pro-lifer"...

 

[rynnor]

Have you actually seen a 20-week old fetus?

Sounds like you've been listening to the pope too much if you're equating abortion with murder. You sound like some miserable yank "pro-lifer"...

Yup - all of my kids for starters. I'm an atheist but not even popes can be wrong all the time.

I'm not sitting in judgement on it but I think its a good illustration of how what is 'bad' is a purely cultural judgement - we allow one form of infanticide but decry another.