News War with Russia

Gwadien

Gwadien

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DaGaffer said:
Seems like an odd choice, not enough to be useful, and non-standard ammo and gun, whereas most other NATO tanks are interoperable. Leopards or Abrams would make a lot more sense than these.
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Yeah this, very meh tbh.

It's a shame we're not sending our newest IVFs (which were fucked due to excessive vibration) but I'm not sure if they're fixed.
 
Embattle

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DaGaffer said:
Seems like an odd choice, not enough to be useful, and non-standard ammo and gun, whereas most other NATO tanks are interoperable. Leopards or Abrams would make a lot more sense than these.
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I said that to my dad when he mentioned it, since they have rifled barrels until the challenger 3 upgrade. They would still be useful but I suspect it is to spur some other countries to provide MBTs.
 
Embattle

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Gwadien said:
Yeah this, very meh tbh.

It's a shame we're not sending our newest IVFs (which were fucked due to excessive vibration) but I'm not sure if they're fixed.
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The Ajax is carrying on being developed, although there has been calls to scrap it.
 
Gwadien

Gwadien

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We should just pay for America to give them the rest of their Bradleys, they're getting new ones anyway.
 
Scouse

Scouse

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Wij said:
Amnesty is not fit for purpose.
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Really? That's a bit baby out with the bathwater.

So, they said some stuff, some of it was refuted when they hired a team of human rights lawyers to analyse what they said - and the outcome was generally "Lacking sufficient information ... the group should have used more cautious language."

That's a bit different than "not fit for purpose". They actually hired a team to produce a "lessons learned" report on what they'd done. If they learn those lessons that shows them doing the right thing - good governance.

And this stuff:

In some respects, the report by the review panel absolved Amnesty International, concluding that it was proper to evaluate whether a defender, not just an aggressor, was obeying the laws of war, and saying that Amnesty’s records made clear that Ukrainian forces were frequently near civilians.

Under international law, it wrote, both sides in any conflict must try to protect civilians, regardless of the rightness of their cause.

As a result, it is “entirely appropriate” for a rights organization to criticize violations by a victim of aggression, “provided that there is sufficient evidence of such violations.”
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Was fair game. They just did it ham-fistedly.

Saying Amnesty is "not fit for purpose" isn't just "not using cautious language" it's a massive over-reaction tbh.
 
Wij

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Scouse said:
Really? That's a bit baby out with the bathwater.

So, they said some stuff, some of it was refuted when they hired a team of human rights lawyers to analyse what they said - and the outcome was generally "Lacking sufficient information ... the group should have used more cautious language."

That's a bit different than "not fit for purpose". They actually hired a team to produce a "lessons learned" report on what they'd done. If they learn those lessons that shows them doing the right thing - good governance.

And this stuff:



Was fair game. They just did it ham-fistedly.

Saying Amnesty is "not fit for purpose" isn't just "not using cautious language" it's a massive over-reaction tbh.
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They created this 'ham-fisted' (factually incorrect) report because it gave them the verdict they wanted, Ukraine is as bad as Russia, which was untrue, they just wanted it to be true to fit a political agenda. Politics before facts. Cunts.
 
Scouse

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Wij said:
They created this 'ham-fisted' (factually incorrect) report because it gave them the verdict they wanted, Ukraine is as bad as Russia, which was untrue, they just wanted it to be true to fit a political agenda. Politics before facts. Cunts.
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No. They didn't say that, it was read (and exploited) that way.

They made the point that Ukraine was stationing military near civilians (in hospitals) - and acting in contravention to law. The human rights lawyers said that it was "entirely appropriate" for Amnesty to point that out.

Their report also wasn't "factually incorrect" - it "wasn't fully substantiated". So they did have evidence.

As much as you want to bash the Russians and bash anyone who doesn't fully buy into the bash the Russians narrative - what came out of this is that Amnesty were 'incautious in their use of language' - which enabled their report to be used opportunistically by the aggressor.

That's the extent of their faux pas. No more, really.
 
Wij

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Scouse said:
No. They didn't say that, it was read (and exploited) that way.

They made the point that Ukraine was stationing military near civilians (in hospitals) - and acting in contravention to law. The human rights lawyers said that it was "entirely appropriate" for Amnesty to point that out.

Their report also wasn't "factually incorrect" - it "wasn't fully substantiated". So they did have evidence.

As much as you want to bash the Russians and bash anyone who doesn't fully buy into the bash the Russians narrative - what came out of this is that Amnesty were 'incautious in their use of language' - which enabled their report to be used opportunistically by the aggressor.

That's the extent of their faux pas. No more, really.
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No, they had no evidence to say that Ukraine was putting civilians in danger. But they left in language which could easily be read as Ukraine uses human shields, for which they had no proof at all. A gift to the Russian war-crime-mongers.

Yes, it's right that people look into these things. It's not right to present utterly unproven narratives as fact.
 
Scouse

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Wij said:
No, they had no evidence
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It helps if you bother to read the actual report that was linked to by the paper:

The principal factual finding of the PR that, in the various locations surveyed , Ukrainian armed forces placed themselves in civilian objects in the proximity of civilians who remained in these areas, including hospitals and abandoned schools, is reasonably
substantiated by the evidence presented to the Panel
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Oooh. And:

The principal legal finding of the PR was that Ukrainian forces failed to take precautions to the maximum extent feasible to protect civilians in their areas of operation.
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Oh dear eh?

It seems that rather than Amnesty International it's your emotions on the subject that are "not fit for purpose" my friend.
 
Wij

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Scouse said:
It helps if you bother to read the actual report that was linked to by the paper:



Oooh. And:


Oh dear eh?

It seems that rather than Amnesty International it's your emotions on the subject that are "not fit for purpose" my friend.
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lol - the PR is what they were assessing, the original press release, not this independent review :) Read the next few sentences.

It's basically what the article I posted ages ago said (more or less, not saying 100% but broadly similar). They accepted that Ukrainian military were sometimes placed near civilians which may have put them in danger but it's almost impossible to say whether it put them in more or less danger because they don't know what the intentions and plans of the Ukrainian and Russian military were.

There's virtually no way to prevent civilian deaths when the Russians want to cause them and not all civilians are willing to be evacuated. The review said there wasn't enough evidence for the conclusions Amnesty put into the PR. Which is exactly what was said by everyone calling them cunts at the time.
 
fettoken

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So it most likely was Russia who did the Nord-stream bombing. Who would have guessed..


Avslöjar: Ryska ”spökskepp” vid Nord Stream – fram till fem dagar före sabotaget

Clarification. There's a whole hour report with Finland, Denmark and Sweden cooperating and digging info which shows two Russian ships (one being a research ship with submarine-capability) one being exactly on top of the later exploding pipe-line while the other being 2km near. Both ships have never been near these locations before. There's evidence from satellite and other data.
 
Embattle

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Also I believe that attack on the Kremlin was perpetrated by the Ukraine about as much as I believe the Moon is made out of Cheese.
 
fettoken

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Yeah also being so perfectly filmed and also the drone exploding exactly next to the flag. No chance
 
Wij

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fettoken said:
Yeah also being so perfectly filmed and also the drone exploding exactly next to the flag. No chance
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I don’t like to speculate too much but the fact you can see people climbing on the roof of the Kremlin as it happened was very strange.
 
Wij

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Tankies will think it was the CIA / Norwukrainians though.
 
Scouse

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Scouse

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Wij said:
Quick reverse ferret from the Russians, boasting about it and then blaming Ukraine.
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Who knows eh?

I understand the dam provided nearly all the water to Crimea. Seems like it would be a massive own goal?
 
Embattle

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Scouse said:
Who knows eh?

I understand the dam provided nearly all the water to Crimea. Seems like it would be a massive own goal?
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Not if it makes it harder to cross the river, I would give it a 80/20 split to the Russians having done it.
 
Scouse

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Embattle said:
Not if it makes it harder to cross the river, I would give it a 80/20 split to the Russians having done it.
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Harder to cross the river vs nobody in Crimea with water?

Do we really think Ukraine is doing some massive "retake Crimea" push?
 
C

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And the "water to Crimea" line doesn't hold up at all because Ukraine cut off the supply after the annexation for 8 years until Russia reconnected it after the invasion and... Crimea still had water during that period.
 
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