News War with Russia

[Wij]

Lavrov confirming there’s no room for negotiated peace with Russia as it still demands regime change, disarmament, a friendly government installed, a permanent say over how the country is run, a veto over any international agreements and alliances and the ceding of more territory permanently to Russia than Russia currently holds:

Russia's Lavrov: Either Ukraine fulfils Moscow's proposals or our army will decide

 

[Scouse]

So, no change from their stance since the beginning of the war, right?

 

[Wij]

So, no change from their stance since the beginning of the war, right?

None. Basically we own Ukraine or war continues. No room for compromise.

 

[SilverHood]

Once Putin dies, we can hope that the whole thing can be rolled back.

 

[Raven]

Once Putin dies, we can hope that the whole thing can be rolled back.

It won't, there are numerous loons hanging about around him.

 

[Scouse]

None. Basically we own Ukraine or war continues. No room for compromise.

Well, they've an ongoing war and no advantage, so why would they say anything else?

 

[Zarjazz]

Well, they've an ongoing war and no advantage, so why would they say anything else?

Because they are going to lose, it's just a matter of when.

 

[BloodOmen]

Russian Intelligence officer meets Ukraine Serviceman

View attachment ap959VE_460svvp9.webm

 

[Wij]

View: https://twitter.com/Iamthisnotthat1/status/1608835968710365186

 

[BloodOmen]

View: https://twitter.com/Iamthisnotthat1/status/1608835968710365186

I just wish he'd speed up the part where we find him shot in the head in a bunker.

 

[Deebs]

As long as Ukraine has the support of the West (and no nuclear weapons are used) Russia will never win. It has been shown that their weapons are based on Victorian designs compared to the West's modern designs. Ukraine are now getting Patriot. The only thing to come out of this is that the West has access to a live battlefield for testing their weapon systems.

Putin is a cunt and I do not understand the rationale behind this war. He moans about NATO but look at the countries to the North which border with him.

 

[Wij]

As long as Ukraine has the support of the West (and no nuclear weapons are used) Russia will never win. It has been shown that their weapons are based on Victorian designs compared to the West's modern designs. Ukraine are now getting Patriot. The only thing to come out of this is that the West has access to a live battlefield for testing their weapon systems.

Putin is a cunt and I do not understand the rationale behind this war. He moans about NATO but look at the countries to the North which border with him.

Joining NATO is a no brainer if you border Russia.

 

[Gwadien]

Putin is a cunt and I do not understand the rationale behind this war. He moans about NATO but look at the countries to the North which border with him.

I think it was rather inevitable.

I don't really know why we didn't try to normalise relations after the fall of the USSR.

Putin is supported because he defends Russia, and that means not having 'the evil NATO' empire on their border, we've always seen Russia as our enemies since WW2, look at our culture; games, books, films, who's the baddies? That's a pretty useful tool if you're ironman.

If he didn't do anything then he probably wouldn't have been in power much longer, as I'm sure there's a far more ultra-nationalist militaristic dictator-in-waiting who probably wouldn't hesitate going to press the big button.

That's why the last thing we want is Putin being assassinated.

The Adam Curtis documentary does a pretty good job explaining why it was inevitable.

 

[Embattle]

Putin is supported because he defends Russia, and that means not having 'the evil NATO' empire on their border, we've always seen Russia as our enemies since WW2, look at our culture; games, books, films, who's the baddies? That's a pretty useful tool if you're ironman.

That might be true if the various media didn't represent the general attitude and actions of Russia over the last 100 years. As for who plays the baddies, generally I thought us Brits often do

As long as Ukraine has the support of the West (and no nuclear weapons are used) Russia will never win. It has been shown that their weapons are based on Victorian designs compared to the West's modern designs. Ukraine are now getting Patriot. The only thing to come out of this is that the West has access to a live battlefield for testing their weapon systems.

Putin is a cunt and I do not understand the rationale behind this war. He moans about NATO but look at the countries to the North which border with him.

I'm not sure one patriot system will be enough, it makes for a juicy target.

The NATO argument has never made sense but then it doesn't have to for Russian consumption. In the end if Russia had taken over Ukraine they would actually of made sure they were on the border of a NATO country, before the war there was a sizable buffer now has somewhat disappeared.

 

[ECA]

I think it was rather inevitable.

I don't really know why we didn't try to normalise relations after the fall of the USSR.

Putin is supported because he defends Russia, and that means not having 'the evil NATO' empire on their border, we've always seen Russia as our enemies since WW2, look at our culture; games, books, films, who's the baddies? That's a pretty useful tool if you're ironman.

If he didn't do anything then he probably wouldn't have been in power much longer, as I'm sure there's a far more ultra-nationalist militaristic dictator-in-waiting who probably wouldn't hesitate going to press the big button.

That's why the last thing we want is Putin being assassinated.

The Adam Curtis documentary does a pretty good job explaining why it was inevitable.

1. we did try and normalise relations.
vast documentation exists.

Remember we had bush 1 > clinton > bush 2> obama > trump since then.
Every one of those administrations made serious effort. ( excluding trump ).

2. putin isn't widely supported. every election he has run in has been rigged.
while that doesn't mean he has zero support and likely would've won the first election
the reality is a modern army can defeat any civil unrest, and he has used various internal suppression tactics.

3. putins job in the KGB was literally supressing internal dissent ( post ussr ).
the FSB has been assassinating internal disruptors for the past 2 decades or more, and took over media control what... 20+ years ago

Russian media mogul Gusinsky arrested

Russian media mogul Vladimir Gusinsky, the owner of the NTV television network and a stable of other media that have been critical of the Kremlin, was...

www.upi.com

Russia's 'Spitting Image' is silenced

Another anti-Kremlin voice has been silenced after Russia's last semi-independent television station axed its equivalent to Spitting Image. Krasnaya Strela, or Red Arrow, was hosted by two puppets called Stepan Capusta and Khrun Morjov who poked fun at the powers that be, including President...

www.independent.co.uk

Assassination of Anna Politkovskaya - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Any russian oligarch who went against putin got assassinated or imprisoned, even those on foreign soil.

4. Putin/russian apologists can fuck right off.

 

[Deebs]

That might be true if the various media didn't represent the general attitude and actions of Russia over the last 100 years. As for who plays the baddies, generally I thought us Brits often do



I'm not sure one patriot system will be enough, it makes for a juicy target.

The NATO argument has never made sense but then it doesn't have to for Russian consumption. In the end if Russia had taken over Ukraine they would actually of made sure they were on the border of a NATO country, before the war there was a sizable buffer now has somewhat disappeared.

Lookup the latest two countries to apply to join NATO. They have have border space with Russia than Ukraine.

 

[Raven]

I don't really know why we didn't try to normalise relations after the fall of the USSR.

Blair actually tried and failed (there wasn't really the will at the time)

This whole situation could have been avoided with better politicians on both "sides"...as could most wars...

But we are where we are, we cannot change the past so have to deal with the present, and at present an (apparently) dying lunatic is waging a war he has no chance of winning.

 

[DaGaffer]

I think it was rather inevitable.

I don't really know why we didn't try to normalise relations after the fall of the USSR.

Putin is supported because he defends Russia, and that means not having 'the evil NATO' empire on their border, we've always seen Russia as our enemies since WW2, look at our culture; games, books, films, who's the baddies? That's a pretty useful tool if you're ironman.

If he didn't do anything then he probably wouldn't have been in power much longer, as I'm sure there's a far more ultra-nationalist militaristic dictator-in-waiting who probably wouldn't hesitate going to press the big button.

That's why the last thing we want is Putin being assassinated.

The Adam Curtis documentary does a pretty good job explaining why it was inevitable.

Define "normalise relations"? There was actually a ton of work done to try to help liberalise Russian politics; the problem was economic; Putin got his foot in the door by giving (enough) Russians a way out of their early 90's impoverishment.

It certainly didn't help that Russia was awash with modern day carpetbaggers (mainly Americans, Brits and Germans) during the Yeltsin era, looking to make a quick buck off the corpse of the USSR. The Russians got to learn all the bad lessons of capitalism (from cronyism to outright theft), when what was needed was a modern-day Marshall Plan (they got the IMF instead), and even then, it probably wouldn't have been enough to dent 70 years of Communist mindset and centuries of Russian Pravoslaviye, Samoderzhaviye, I Narodnost (Orthodoxy, Autocracy, Nationalism); the Russians have never really broken out of that box.

 

[Scouse]

Define "normalise relations"? There was actually a ton of work done to try to help liberalise Russian politics; the problem was economic;

The west abandoned them. Yeltsin pleaded with us. But we certainly could have helped with a better transition than one into gangster politics. But we made a shitload of money out of it so...

 

[Embattle]

Seriously stop trying to find excuses for the inexcusable.

 

[Gwadien]

The west abandoned them. Yeltsin pleaded with us. But we certainly could have helped with a better transition than one into gangster politics. But we made a shitload of money out of it so...

Yeah, I'm not gonna continue in this thread, it's pretty boring getting called a 'Putin apologist' because I refuse to follow the idea that the only way forward is war, but yeah, this.

Russia opened up to us economically, that's all we wanted, we could have done so much more to prevent them becoming what they have become; this was the criticism of the League of Nations 100 years ago - too little too late, repeatedly.

 

[Embattle]

Yeah, I'm not gonna continue in this thread, it's pretty boring getting called a 'Putin apologist' because I refuse to follow the idea that the only way forward is war, but yeah, this.

Russia opened up to us economically, that's all we wanted, we could have done so much more to prevent them becoming what they have become; this was the criticism of the League of Nations 100 years ago - too little too late, repeatedly.

I would since you may not be an apologist but you do, like a few others, talk bollocks on this issue.

You seem to be forgetting that no one thought war was the answer, firstly Putin invaded Crimea which to this day no one recognises as part of Russia. 8 years later he went for a second bite of the pie and started a War which is costing lives and destroying economies and probably heading to an entrenched phase.

The idea that Ukraine can end a war they didn't start and didn't want by conceding areas of their own country to an invader who has committed crimes against humanity on its land against its people on the promise of an untrustworthy leader and country that he wouldn't find an excuse for a third bite is laughable.

 

[Gwadien]

You seem to be forgetting that no one thought war was the answer

talk bollocks on this issue.

Everyone knew this would eventually happen - there was a proxy war, and then Russia pretty openly increased their contribution.

It's happened to most former long standing Soviet countries that have dared to step away from Russia, I don't know how you don't see it as inevitable, even in the face of NATO.

The idea that Ukraine can end a war they didn't start and didn't want by conceding areas of their own country to an invader who has committed crimes against humanity on its land against its people on the promise of an untrustworthy leader and country that he wouldn't find an excuse for a third bite is laughable.

Where did I say that?

The whole point behind my post was answering the question 'I have no idea why Putin is doing this' - and I was proposing an answer, it doesn't mean I agree with it, but that's why, it's not because he's gone mental and decided to go to war, is it, really?

 

[ECA]

You seem to be forgetting that no one thought war was the answer, firstly Putin invaded Crimea which to this day no one recognises as part of Russia. 8 years later he went for a second bite of the pie and started a War which is costing lives and destroying economies and probably heading to an entrenched phase.

It didn't even start with ukraine.
Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 under the pretense that Osettia and Abkhazia wanted independence and accused Georgia of committing Genocide.... sound familiar?

In 2014 they ran the same playbook for Crimea.

The western response in both cases was pathetic.

The putin apologists blaming the west are a bit like blaming a girl for leaving a guy that retaliates by throwing acid in her face.

 

[Wij]

Russians never lost the imperial mindset. It’s literally taught to them in schools and blasted at them in their media.

 

[Wij]

Contrast with say, Germany.

 

[ECA]

Also for fun:

Why the U.K. Failed to Investigate Russia-Linked Assassinations on Its Soil

The British government treated all 14 Russian-linked assassinations in the U.K. as 'non-suspicious'

time.com

Russia likely assassinated 14 people in the uk in the last 15 years or so.

Our response?

Well, boris was busy meeting ex KGB officers as FoSec without any members of his team.

Boris Johnson in fresh turmoil over meeting with ex-KGB agent

BORIS JOHNSON has found himself in fresh turmoil over his relationship with ex-KGB agent, Russian oligarch and confidante of Vladimir Putin, Alexander Lebedev.

www.express.co.uk

And knighted said ex kgb officers son on the way out:

Evgeny Lebedev - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Surely no Kompromat at his bunga bunga parties?

Boris Johnson 'barely able to walk' after partying with billionaire

The then Foreign Secretary was on his way back to London after Perugia, Italy, after a 'heavy night' at the castle of media mogul Evgeny Lebedev when he was spotted.

www.dailymail.co.uk

And that shit didn't start with boris.

Russian donor paid £135,000 to have dinner with Theresa May and cabinet members

Lubov Chernukhin - whose husband was a former ally of Russia's Vladimir Putin - paid for a meal with Theresa May and other top Tories on Monday

www.mirror.co.uk

Mrs Chernukhin, a banker, made high profile auction bids in previous years, purchasing private access to senior ministers.

Last year the Tories accepted her bid of £30,000 in return for a private dinner with defence secretary Gavin Williamson in the Churchill War Rooms.




She successfully bid £160,000 at a previous Black and White Ball to play tennis with Boris Johnson, and also £20,000 to dine with Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson in Edinburgh.

 

[Wij]

Garry Kasparov’s book, Winter Is Coming is a great explainer for how Russia came to be as it is now. The west may not have helped as much as it could but the main reasons lie in how the USSR operated. Corruption, rent-seeking, and competence being relatively unimportant were deeply ingrained in the culture and the state crafted itself out of what were already the most powerful institutions, the KGB and the mob.

 

[ECA]

Not just us though - russian money was all over various countries politicians.

France:

Marine Le Pen: Who's funding France's far right?

BBC Panorama investigates where Marine Le Pen's National Front gets its money.

www.bbc.co.uk

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Germany:

Deutsche Bank’s $10-Billion Scandal

How a scheme to help Russians secretly funnel money offshore unravelled.

www.newyorker.com

Deutsche Bank faces action over $20bn Russian money-laundering scheme

Exclusive: in confidential internal report seen by the Guardian, bank says scandal has hurt global brand

www.theguardian.com

 

[Embattle]

Europe's big question: What a diminished Russia will do next | CNN

Russia's war in Ukraine has proven almost every assumption wrong, with Europe now wondering what left is safe to assume.

edition.cnn.com