News War with Russia

SilverHood

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From the same article: According to a Kyiv International Institute of Sociology (KIIS) survey published on July 27, only 10% of Ukrainians are ready for some territorial concessions. “Even among residents of the eastern oblasts, where intense fighting is ongoing, 77% of people are against concessions,” the report reads. "
 

SilverHood

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Well, 23% have no opinion, did not answer, or are ready for concessions. Won't really know unless we see the raw survey data.
 

Scouse

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Well, 23% have no opinion, did not answer, or are ready for concessions. Won't really know unless we see the raw survey data.
Oh, if we're going into survey design - how confident are we that a neutral-language survey was asked with neutral questions in a warzone by completely non-involved people?

(Answer is obvious btw).
 

Gwadien

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Oh, if we're going into survey design - how confident are we that a neutral-language survey was asked with neutral questions in a warzone by completely non-involved people?

(Answer is obvious btw).
But the West doesn't do propaganda!
 

Wij

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Oh, if we're going into survey design - how confident are we that a neutral-language survey was asked with neutral questions in a warzone by completely non-involved people?

(Answer is obvious btw).
You seriously think that a differently worded question would get anything other than a resounding majority against concessions to Russia?
 

Scouse

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Well of course they have.

Only a wanker sees the Ukranians as perfect darling angels who do nothing wrong. They're just fucking humans like the rest of the world - capable of atrocity just as much as the next man.

But I tell you what. Lets bash Amnesty because they're telling us stuff we don't want to hear. Again.
 

Wij

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Well of course they have.

Only a wanker sees the Ukranians as perfect darling angels who do nothing wrong. They're just fucking humans like the rest of the world - capable of atrocity just as much as the next man.

But I tell you what. Lets bash Amnesty because they're telling us stuff we don't want to hear. Again.
They are wrong on this one. Plain and simple.
 

Scouse

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They are wrong on this one. Plain and simple.
Yeah. Sure.

Ukrainian troops under invasiom are above the tried-and-tested method of putting their own people in the firing line.
 

Wij

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Yeah. Sure.

Ukrainian troops under invasiom are above the tried-and-tested method of putting their own people in the firing line.
Nobody is forcing them to be in the firing line. They've been offered escape and the majority have taken it. Those who stayed want to stay.

It doesn't even make a jot of sense. Russia would not care if there are civilians to be hit anyway. They hit civilians deliberately.
 

Scouse

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Nobody is forcing them to be in the firing line. They've been offered escape and the majority have taken it. Those who stayed want to stay.
How about "don't set up this missile launcher next to my home you fucking idiot - I've got kids you know". :eek:
 

Wij

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How about "don't set up this missile launcher next to my home you fucking idiot - I've got kids you know". :eek:
Who is saying that? Those who wanted to go have gone. They are defending built up areas.
 

Scouse

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Who is saying that? Those who wanted to go have gone. They are defending built up areas.
You really can't actually see what you're saying here can you.

Any other country they're using civilian areas as shields - and causing sympathetic headlines through civilian deaths. It's a moral no-no but it's a tried-and-tested strategy. But Ukraine? Our precious darling angels defending their homeland from evil evil russian nazis? They can do no wrong!

They're the same animal Wij. And they're as guilty as Amnesty says. Russia is definitely a cunt of a country - but Ukrainians aren't whiter than white.
 

Wij

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You really can't actually see what you're saying here can you.

Any other country they're using civilian areas as shields - and causing sympathetic headlines through civilian deaths. It's a moral no-no but it's a tried-and-tested strategy. But Ukraine? Our precious darling angels defending their homeland from evil evil russian nazis? They can do no wrong!

They're the same animal Wij. And they're as guilty as Amnesty says. Russia is definitely a cunt of a country - but Ukrainians aren't whiter than white.
Which bit of civilians have been evacuated didn't you get? They are fighting where it makes sense to fight. Would you rather they gimped their best chance of defending themselves? Clearly you would as you already said they should lie down and accept the end of their country and deportation to camps in Russia.
 

Gwadien

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So when the Russians bombard civilian areas with weapons in, that's fair game, right?
 

Scouse

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Which bit of civilians have been evacuated didn't you get?
What bit of this didn't you get:

Amnesty International said:
Ukranian forces have put civilians in harm's way by establishing bases and operating weapons in populated residential areas
You dismiss the truth because you don't like it.

Get off twitter m8. It's not helping you.
 

Wij

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What bit of this didn't you get:



You dismiss the truth because you don't like it.

Get off twitter m8. It's not helping you.
Amnesty Ukraine, who would actually know, disagree entirely.

Civilians who want to have been evacuated. What more do you expect Ukraine to do?

Equating this with human-shields under Saddam is disgraceful victim-blaming.
 

Raven

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Imagine thinking it makes a difference where you place military equipment. Russia will bomb stuff for something to do, enemy or civilian numbers don't really matter.
 

Scouse

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Amnesty Ukraine, who would actually know, disagree entirely.
You know what I'd level at this.


Equating this with human-shields under Saddam is disgraceful victim-blaming.
I'm not. I'm saying that I believe Amnesty International when they say Ukranian forces have put civilians in harm's way by establishing bases and operating weapons in populated residential areas.

And further to that - that it's hardly surprising, kind of the normal thing humans do when shit like this kicks off. And lastly - in both the absence of personal experience and a long history of being born out correct - I'm happy to take Amnesty Internationals statement on the situation at face value rather than the indecipherable bullshit shitstorm that is the whole business model of twitter.
 

Wij

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You know what I'd level at this.



I'm not. I'm saying that I believe Amnesty International when they say Ukranian forces have put civilians in harm's way by establishing bases and operating weapons in populated residential areas.

And further to that - that it's hardly surprising, kind of the normal thing humans do when shit like this kicks off. And lastly - in both the absence of personal experience and a long history of being born out correct - I'm happy to take Amnesty Internationals statement on the situation at face value rather than the indecipherable bullshit shitstorm that is the whole business model of twitter.
But you don't believe Amnesty Ukraine who are actually on the ground.
 

Scouse

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But you don't believe Amnesty Ukraine who are actually on the ground.
As I've said - for obvious reasons I choose to believe Amnesty's foreign observers, who were on the ground for several months collecting physical evidence before compiling the report.
 

Wij

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As I've said - for obvious reasons I choose to believe Amnesty's foreign observers, who were on the ground for several months collecting physical evidence before compiling the report.
Obvious reason?

So you think some Amnesty people could obviously be biased. Conversely, other Amnesty people must necessarily be objective.

Makes sense.
 

Scouse

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I think, quite clearly, that people who are under attack, who's country, homes, friends and family are being attacked and killed can absolutely lose their objectivity.

So again - I believe the Amnesty International researchers who have spent months on the ground gathering evidence.

Why don't you?
 

Wij

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I think, quite clearly, that people who are under attack, who's country, homes, friends and family are being attacked and killed can absolutely lose their objectivity.

So again - I believe the Amnesty International researchers who have spent months on the ground gathering evidence.

Why don't you?
Because, firstly, when the local people on the ground are objecting that they aren't being listened to AT ALL, and being deliberately ignored, it raises a red flag with me.

Secondly, on the face of the claim it makes absolutely no sense. Why would Ukraine deliberately put weapons near civilians WITH THE INTENTION of having Russia hit the civilians.

1.) They do not need the bad press for Russia. Russia hits civilians all the time. Deliberately. A few more incidents aren't going to change anyone's mind about the Russians actions. It serves NO PURPOSE for propaganda.
2.) It would not serve to deter Russia from hitting those targets. Russian will happily hit them. Ukraine knows this full well.

Therefore we know that the reason why military equipment would be put in civilian areas will only be if it makes military sense to do so. That that is the place it would do the most use in hitting the invaders' equipment or taking down their missiles etc.

What Amnesty is effectively saying is that it knows of better spots that equipment could be in that would be just as useful tactically but have less chance of hitting civilians.

Amnesty is not in a position to know that and it's a fucking cheek to think it knows better than the Ukrainian military in how best to protect the country. It is way out of its lane in thinking it can decide these matters. It is not an expert and it has no plausible reasons to offer.
 

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