News War with Russia

[Gwadien]

Didn't this wall of text start with someone literally asking what @Scouse thought?

 

[Scouse]

Didn't this wall of text start with someone literally asking what @Scouse thought?

They asked - but don't like what I think.

 

[Deebs]

And you accuse me of spouting drivel.

Someone else needs to be able to voice that people act dumb. Countries act dumb. Nations act dumb.

Even with the threat of WW3? Sorry Deebs - I know how emotive a subject this is for you - but that is crazy talk. Just crazy.

Ukraine, and all the horror and suffering these poor people are going through - they're not worth that. Because that means the horror and suffering that is happening right now on a tiny bit of the globe happens to everyone.

The problem is - too many humans react and think like that. And it'll get us all killed one day. I understand why you feel the way you do - but I cannot stand by and not argue against all the bloodthirsty jingoism that is running through this thread. The celebration of death. We need - as a species - to think a lot less tribally.

You don't get it, if we did nothing to help Ukraine, Putin would not stop with just that country. It would also embolden China to take Taiwan, god knows what North Korea would decide to do. What is the point of armies/weapons if you are not willing to use them? The only way the human race will ever be less tribal is with a global reset, period.

 

[Deebs]

They asked - but don't like what I think.

Again absolute bollocks. I disagree with your statement that we are arming civilians when we are not.

 

[Gwadien]

My two cents though; if we're going to isolate this event of people getting their hands tied and being shot outside of their house, there isn't sufficient evidence (yet) to prove either way to be honest...

If it was soldiers acting on their own accord then to answer the question; yes, they probably wouldn't have died if they surrendered as the soldiers acted on their own accord and most likely in revenge to the amount of their comrades that had been killed.

If it was a directive from the top then no, surrendering probably wouldn't have changed anything, and since the US has made it clear they don't want a regime change in Russia it doesn't matter anyway as we'll never find the evidence to back that up to prosecute Russian leadership and we wouldn't be able to physically get them before a court anyway.

But either way, it brings me back to that case about the UK soldiers in Afghanistan being prosecuted for war crimes whilst the people that sent them into the war zones were completely fine, I wonder if we'll apply the same logic to Russia...

 

[Scouse]

Again absolute bollocks. I disagree with your statement that we are arming civilians when we are not.

Where are the guns we're giving Ukraine going?

If we know they end up in the hands of civilians, then we know we're arming them.

Do we know that's where they're going Deebs? Do you want me to post the article from the Ukranian government which legalises civlians taking those guns and shooting people, or the video of Ukranian civilains from the NYT with all the guns?

I'm calling bullshit m8. And I'd like to see if anyone else on this forum is able to do the mental twist that allows them to think we're not arming civilians at all.

Anyone?

 

[Gwadien]

Where are the guns we're giving Ukraine going?

If we know they end up in the hands of civilians, then we know we're arming them.

Do we know that's where they're going Deebs? Do you want me to post the article from the Ukranian government which legalises civlians taking those guns and shooting people, or the video of Ukranian civilains from the NYT with all the guns?

I'm calling bullshit m8. And I'd like to see if anyone else on this forum is able to do the mental twist that allows them to think we're not arming civilians at all.

Anyone?

I think he's specifically talking about the arms that the west has sent, ie not giving AKs to civilians.

 

[Scouse]

You don't get it ... The only way the human race will ever be less tribal is with a global reset, period.

I do, of course, "get it".

But if your last sentence is true, then I feel very sad - as our self-extinction is "locked in".

I, however, am more hopeful than that. I don't think it's beyond the capacity of the human race to organise differently. We can - and must - do it if we are to survive.

 

[Deebs]

Where are the guns we're giving Ukraine going?

If we know they end up in the hands of civilians, then we know we're arming them.

Do we know that's where they're going Deebs? Do you want me to post the article from the Ukranian government which legalises civlians taking those guns and shooting people, or the video of Ukranian civilains from the NYT with all the guns?

I'm calling bullshit m8. And I'd like to see if anyone else on this forum is able to do the mental twist that allows them to think we're not arming civilians at all.

Anyone?

We are NOT arming civilians, the Ukrainian Government is. What is unclear about this? As far as I am aware the UK has not sent guns but only bigger weapons like MANPADs. In all the videos/news items I have yet to see a British assault rifle in a civilian hand. If you can provide a source to show proof that UK assault rifles are in civilian hands then I am happy to be corrected. Otherwise stop this bullshit nonsense you keep saying the UK is doing.

 

[Deebs]

I do, of course, "get it".

But if your last sentence is true, then I feel very sad - as our self-extinction is "locked in".

I, however, am more hopeful than that. I don't think it's beyond the capacity of the human race to organise differently. We can - and must - do it if we are to survive.

LOL, more fool you. The world cannot even agree on climate change, you think wars are going to stop anytime soon?

 

[Deebs]

I think he's specifically talking about the arms that the west has sent, ie not giving AKs to civilians.

Exactly, our NLAWS/Stingers/Starstreak MANPADs are not being handed out to Joe Public.

 

[Scouse]

I think he's specifically talking about the arms that the west has sent, ie not giving AKs to civilians.

The west has sent advanced weaponry, yep. But we've also sent guns - lots and lots of guns.

 

[Scouse]

LOL, more fool you. The world cannot even agree on climate change, you think wars are going to stop anytime soon?

It must be horrible to live with the certainty of extinction.

 

[Scouse]

Exactly, our NLAWS/Stingers/Starstreak MANPADs are not being handed out to Joe Public.

Oh so it's the "if we ignore all the guns we're handing out to civilians and only focus on <this specific subset of weapons> then we're definitely not arming civlians" argument.

Okey dokey.

 

[Deebs]

It must be horrible to live with the certainty of extinction.

Not at all, I live in a town which would be a first targetted zone in any war, whether conventional or nuclear. I just get on with life and not worry about it.

 

[Deebs]

Oh so it's the "if we ignore all the guns we're handing out to civilians and only focus on <this specific subset of weapons> then we're definitely not arming civlians" argument.

Okey dokey.

Show me evidence that UK assault rifles have been shipped to Ukraine and handed out to civilians, otherwise fuckoff.

And who is the "if we ignore all the guns we're handing out to civilians" as it is certainly not the UK unless I missed the report that we have soldiers on the border with their arms full of guns ready to hand over to anyone who wants one.

 

[Gwadien]

The west has sent advanced weaponry, yep. But we've also sent guns - lots and lots of guns.

The only weapons that the likes of Bellingcat have noted are on front line professional soldiers, let's not forget that Ukraine has had over 600k professional troops fighting for them since the start of the Donbass war.

Most units (even the professional units) are outfitted with AKs and such and have even dipped into their WW2 supply of weaponry.

It's irrelevant anyway, small weapons don't win wars anyway, the relevant stuff is the stuff we have been sending.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDd8NFftuXI

 

[Tom]

The Russians have been murdering civilians since day one. It has nothing to do with resistance - a significant part of their armed forces just wants to destroy and kill.

 

[Gwadien]

The Russians have been murdering civilians since day one. It has nothing to do with resistance - a significant part of their armed forces just wants to destroy and kill.

Not conscripts though, you can't train them to be mindless bloodthirsty criminals, especially when they're not even trained in that regard, they're basically cannon fodder, the elite units.. maybe.

The one thing that does make people do shit like this is when lots of their mates die and it's in response...

 

[Embattle]

One would almost forget that Russia under the guise of USSR has form of executing it's own civilians lets alone civilians in other countries.

 

[DaGaffer]

One would almost forget that Russia under the guise of USSR has form of executing it's own civilians lets alone civilians in other countries.

And before the USSR. Call them FSB, KGB, NKVD, Cheka, Okrhana. it was ever thus. Russia has always been a state run on terror; we just like to delude ourselves they're a normal nation from time to time.

 

[Raven]

17k Russian deaths is being banded about now.

 

[Wij]

Predictably Glem comes along with a shitty take:


View: https://twitter.com/Wilson__Valdez/status/1510630901918617615

 

[Gwadien]

Predictably Glem comes along with a shitty take:


View: https://twitter.com/Wilson__Valdez/status/1510630901918617615

He's also kinda got a point though...

We still don't know if it was directed from above or if it was the action of individual units, I mean if we were going to declare war on everyone that didn't have perfectly disciplined soldiers we'd be declaring war on everyone, including ourselves.

However I don't think that the west has an appetite for war so that kinda undermines his argument.

I still think the civilian death toll will be forgotten very quick though as soon as ZRussia packs up and withdraws though, the meanest of sanctions will be lifted but I'm sure there will be some largely meaningless ones remaining.

 

[Embattle]

And before the USSR. Call them FSB, KGB, NKVD, Cheka, Okrhana. it was ever thus. Russia has always been a state run on terror; we just like to delude ourselves they're a normal nation from time to time.

Just another famous example from WW2:

Katyn massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Although it is slowly being rewritten to blame Hitlerite's again:

In 2021, however, the Russian Ministry of Culture downgraded the memorial complex at Katyn on its Register of Sites of Cultural Heritage from a place of federal to one of only regional importance.[136] Such decisions, says the preface to the site, are made in consultation with the regional authorities, i.e. the Smolensk Region administration. More important, the Ministry altered the descriptive text to say, once more, that the "Polish officers were shot by the Hitlerites in 1941".

 

[Wij]

Glem: "EVIDENCE-FREE"

Upsetting content:

Spoiler

View: https://twitter.com/Mariana_Betsa/status/1510966912724963328

 

[dysfunction]

Perhaps spoiler that

 

[Wij]

View: https://twitter.com/ischinger/status/1510963504794279937

 

[Wij]

Latest talking points from the far left and far right is that no one was talking about bodies in Bucha until days after the Russians left so the Russians didn’t do it. Firstly that’s not true. There were several posts on Twitter straight after Ukraine liberated it. Secondly:


View: https://twitter.com/MatinaStevis/status/1511061258233122824

 

[Wij]

View: https://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1511329094323126278