United States Corrupt Twattery

[Tom]

There's a reason why in the US you have a bunch of flag-waving redneck racist morons driving around as though it was still 1850, while in Germany you do not.

 

[Scouse]

There's a reason why in the US you have a bunch of flag-waving redneck racist morons driving around as though it was still 1850, while in Germany you do not.

They do exist though.

It matters not. It's the wider principle that only in the cold harsh light of day can festering sores be seen and attempts be made to cure them.


Edit: Vaguely applicable, but either way interesting:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OMZxj0Qgk0

 

[Ctuchik]

It matters not. It's the wider principle that only in the cold harsh light of day can festering sores be seen and attempts be made to cure them.

But that requires that they first can be reasoned with. There's only one type of person that is harder to reason with then a racist, and that is the religious fanatics...

 

[Job]

I object to it's illegality too. I believe in true freedom of speech.

However, @Job is talking out of his arse - holocaust denial is not illegal in the United States. Freedom of speech is constitutional. Unlike us the Americans are completely free to speak their minds - so his argument is utterly baseless.

I never said that or implied it, it's illegal variously around the world and that was just a dig at western liberalism, which is the only place it exists.

 

[Scouse]

But that requires that they first can be reasoned with. There's only one type of person that is harder to reason with then a racist, and that is the religious fanatics...

If freedom of speech was ingrained in German law then people wouldn't have been arrested for saying things the state deemed out of order - perhaps they could have stood up for the Jews instead of cowering in fear eh?

 

[TdC]

unfair comparison is unfair but heyoo

 

[Scouse]

unfair comparison is unfair but heyoo

Disagree. The first time people feel they cannot speak their minds freely that gives licence to others to carry on unopposed.

That sort of shit is exactly what a constitutional freedom of speech is supposed to help protect against - and is part of the reason why the founding fathers put it in the US constitution.

Freedom to state what you think, however retarded it may be, is a check and balance on the power of the state.

 

[TdC]

But Scouse, Nazi Germany didn't have a constitutional freedom of speech. It takes a very strong man to defy such tyranny. That said, while the scared majority was indeed silent, I believe that you'd find some hidden gems where people did indeed offer a crust to their fellow man in a time of need.

My statement that your comparison is unfair stems from my belief that it is unfair to call out Joe Average Person for being himself. The average person can and likely will be intimidated, scared and coerced. The average person does look out for him or herself, and under certain circumstances for their immediate nearest and dearest, but that's about it. The average person can't stand up against tyranny because the average person doesn't have the means or modus to do so. Basically the average person just wants to get on with their lives with the minimum hassle required. That doesn't mean Joe didn't feel bad about looking the other way when a trainload of Jews went by.

 

[Scouse]

But Scouse, Nazi Germany didn't have a constitutional freedom of speech.

My point exactly.

My statement that your comparison is unfair stems from my belief that it is unfair to call out Joe Average Person for being himself.

Whilst I acknowledge and understand your point here, I think that if they did have constitutionally protected freedom of speech there would have been much more demonstration against the murder and burning of those that the state deemed undesirable.

I don't think what happened in Nazi Germany can happen in the United States given their constitution.

I'm not wanting to get into a whole discussion over Nazi Germany - the point I made above (including the italicisation) was the point I wanted to make (regardless of whether it's a fair comparison): Freedom of speech is a curb on the power of the state.

 

[Gwadien]

Yeah, 'Political Opponents' were also put into concentration camps, they weren't communists, they were people that disagreed with the Nazis

@Job Could I briefly remind you that when the holocaust denial laws came into play, it was only a couple of years after WW2, for the large majority of these governments, they would heavily be considered to by very right-wing by todays standards. These people made these laws so something as disgusting as the Holocaust would never happen again.

Holocaust denial laws are a necessity to stop things like the Holocaust happening again, and your opposition to such a law is abhorrent and begs the question to why you are so against it. If a bunch of European politicians during the 40s and 50s can create laws because they were so moved by what the Nazis had done to the Jews, then I'd argue that these politicians would be spinning in their graves if they knew that we were attempting to dismantle the laws which prevented such crime - especially by people who's slogan is 'Make America Great Again' and saying 'FFS, Political Correctness mayn, I'm not racist but all these muslims should be banned from our country.'

We're heading to another world war, and we're heading to another persecution of a minority, and it will happen.

 

[Gwadien]

My point exactly.


Whilst I acknowledge and understand your point here, I think that if they did have constitutionally protected freedom of speech there would have been much more demonstration against the murder and burning of those that the state deemed undesirable.

I don't think what happened in Nazi Germany can happen in the United States given their constitution.

I'm not wanting to get into a whole discussion over Nazi Germany - the point I made above (including the italicisation) was the point I wanted to make (regardless of whether it's a fair comparison): Freedom of speech is a curb on the power of the state.

Weimar Constitution - Wikipedia

Part 2 Section 1

Doh dohs of education here.

The Nazis rose to power in Germany through democracy, by promising people a better life, then they literally pulled the rug and everyone's rights disappeared in an extremely quick amount of time. So it can happen anywhere at any time.

Let's not kid ourselves and suggest that the rises of such tyrants have to be through a democracy, but ffs, let's not make it easier for the nut jobs by voting for them when history is telling us no.

I can literally go through all of Trumps policies and draw links between them and the Nazi policies for the '33 election, it's not hard, and it's ridiculous that people would accept such ridiculous approaches.

 

[Scouse]

These people made these laws so something as disgusting as the Holocaust would never happen again.

Holocaust denial laws are a necessity to stop things like the Holocaust happening again.

Disagree. I think they're more hindrance than help and in todays age - when most of the people who experienced these things first hand are dead or not far off dying - they stop adult discussion with those that need to be a part of that discussion most of all.

It drives shit into the shadows where light cannot be shined. It makes these sad deluded people feel persecuted. It forces them together, in secret, where they can fester unchallenged.




Edit: Your post about how that happened in Germany - if they had a constitution like in the US (including the right to bear arms, freedom of speech, all the other gubbins) - then it wouldn't have happened. But, like I said, my original post wasn't meant to spawn the ins-and-outs of German History. It was meant to show how true freedom of speech is a force for good, not evil.

 

[Gwadien]

Disagree. I think they're more hindrance than help and in todays age - when most of the people who experienced these things first hand are dead or not far off dying - they stop adult discussion with those that need to be a part of that discussion most of all.

It drives shit into the shadows where light cannot be shined. It makes these sad deluded people feel persecuted. It forces them together, in secret, where they can fester unchallenged.




Edit: Your post about how that happened in Germany - if they had a constitution like in the US (including the right to bear arms, freedom of speech, all the other gubbins) - then it wouldn't have happened. But, like I said, my original post wasn't meant to spawn the ins-and-outs of German History. It was meant to show how true freedom of speech is a force for good, not evil.

My point was that Germany DID have a constitution, but did that stop them from stopping them?

Germany also just left a world war about 15 years before Hitler was elected and took power, many of these former soldiers were used as mock-police whilst the country was in massive amounts of turbulence, so many of these German people still had weaponry.

You can't post such definitive posts about 'IT WOULDNT HAVE HAPPENED' because it still would have because the Nazi regime was so brutal, and that's why we should adhere to the past as much as we possibly can, because it's just happening again but in far more powerful nations.

Freedom of Speech is good, but it's not as good as you think it is.

 

[Job]

My point exactly.


Whilst I acknowledge and understand your point here, I think that if they did have constitutionally protected freedom of speech there would have been much more demonstration against the murder and burning of those that the state deemed undesirable.

I don't think what happened in Nazi Germany can happen in the United States given their constitution.

I'm not wanting to get into a whole discussion over Nazi Germany - the point I made above (including the italicisation) was the point I wanted to make (regardless of whether it's a fair comparison): Freedom of speech is a curb on the power of the state.

Yes and it was an incorrect knee jerk reaction that played straight into the hands of Nazi supporters, they could claim it was a government conspiracy.

 

[TdC]

My point exactly.

ah sorry, I misunderstood your meaning in your original post.

 

[Scouse]

Freedom of Speech is good, but it's not as good as you think it is.

It's why I italicised "help" and said "I think"...

Edit: And the German constitution wasn't as good as the US's tbh - within a month of taking office Hitler had suspended German's freedom of expression - and had the power to do so. But it's telling that this was one of the first targets.

 

[Gwadien]

It's why I italicised "help" and said "I think"...

Edit: And the German constitution wasn't as good as the US's tbh - within a month of taking office Hitler had suspended German's freedom of expression - and had the power to do so. But it's telling that this was one of the first targets.

I think you're failing to see what I'm trying to do.

Okay, so Trump takes over the US, the thick rednecks and southerners who own most of the guns will happily sit there and accept him do it, whilst the people in California and New York - IE the coasts which are also much more densely populated won't like it, but what can they do about it?

I'm not implying that Trump is going to do this, I'm just saying that with the push for dictatorship coming from the right people, it would be accepted.

 

[Embattle]

I read redneck and just think of this-


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J62JQ3yBXds

 

[DaGaffer]

It's why I italicised "help" and said "I think"...

Edit: And the German constitution wasn't as good as the US's tbh - within a month of taking office Hitler had suspended German's freedom of expression - and had the power to do so. But it's telling that this was one of the first targets.

Constitutions can be amended, especially when you control House and Senate, and at least two of Trump's election platforms are currently unconstitutional anyway.

Problem for Trump is that all the economic stuff he's been promising is impossible to deliver, especially given Republicans are always going to vote to minimise threats to corporate interests, so to keep the electorate sweet he's going to have double down on some of the other shit; climate change agreements and Obamacare being the obvious wins. That'll keep everyone distracted for a while, but the other shit will follow.

At this stage our only hope is a massive heart attack...

 

[gohan]

We have, however, successfully implemented our anti alien invasion defence system. 2016 has proved we are too dumb to bother observing or invading.

 

[Scouse]

The thing is, are we? Isn't one definition of madness doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome?

Voting for Clinton, for millions of people, is a vote for the status quo. Trump will at least be different. Worse probably, but different nevertheless.

In the absence of acceptable options, perhaps any change feels better than no change.

 

[Exioce]

And if he doesn't deliver all these magic jobs and fixes, any moderation will be blamed. Win/win!

 

[Embattle]

White and wealthy voters gave victory to Donald Trump, exit polls show

 

[Raven]

Weimar Constitution - Wikipedia

Part 2 Section 1

Doh dohs of education here.

The Nazis rose to power in Germany through democracy, by promising people a better life, then they literally pulled the rug and everyone's rights disappeared in an extremely quick amount of time. So it can happen anywhere at any time.

Let's not kid ourselves and suggest that the rises of such tyrants have to be through a democracy, but ffs, let's not make it easier for the nut jobs by voting for them when history is telling us no.

I can literally go through all of Trumps policies and draw links between them and the Nazi policies for the '33 election, it's not hard, and it's ridiculous that people would accept such ridiculous approaches.

The only real difference I can see is that Hitler started as a socialist mong and Trump a right wing mong.

 

[Raven]

Also, banning bullshit holocaust denial is retarded. It is not going to stop people from holding those views, just hiding them. If it is driven underground it is harder to challenge such stupid views.

 

[gohan]

I don't know, there's plenty of people with stupid views everywhere. those people are unchallengable as they are convinced by their own ignorance

 

[Job]

It's safe to say Trump will follow through on about 20% of his promises, and as s leading ex Nato General said last week...'He'll make the world safer'.

 

[Hawkwind]

Disagree. The first time people feel they cannot speak their minds freely that gives licence to others to carry on unopposed.

That sort of shit is exactly what a constitutional freedom of speech is supposed to help protect against - and is part of the reason why the founding fathers put it in the US constitution.

Freedom to state what you think, however retarded it may be, is a check and balance on the power of the state.

Isn't that the point though, through liberalism people are scared of speaking their minds for fear of being branded <insert negative label here>. People are fed up with the hypocrisy of it.

Anyway, its going to be hilarious watching Trump try to create 4 million+ jobs in run down areas like the old steel towns that handed him the win.

 

[Job]

He'll borrow and spend, pay the wages on the never never.
Turn those shitholes into gleaming new cities, everyone feels good.
It worked for Hitler.

 

[Scouse]

Isn't that the point though, through liberalism people are scared of speaking their minds for fear of being branded <insert negative label here>. People are fed up with the hypocrisy of it.

Anyway, its going to be hilarious watching Trump try to create 4 million+ jobs in run down areas like the old steel towns that handed him the win.

1) Difference between saying shit and being locked up for it.
2) Climate denialist. He'll get 'em digging coal or some such shit :\