News Unbelievable

[rynnor]

BBC News - No charges over G20 man's death

Not even an assault charge - join the Police - you can get away with murder...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Not really unbelievable, just that it's harder to convict people on the job and in that kind of situation.

 

[inactionman]

It's a disgrace. My sister is a police officer and they truely look after there own, it's disgusting!

 

[Ch3tan]

Did you read the article Ryynor, or are you just making outraged comments as usual? Same with you inactionman - did you read the reasons for this decision?

At the end of the day, charging someone with an offence which they cannot then be prosecuted for is pointless. They reviewed the charges they could bring, and did not bring any as none would have held up. That does not mean the CPS think the officer is innocent, it means the case is too complex to gain a conviction.

There is nothing in that decision which says the police were right, further inquiries including the police's own have yet to be held.

 

[inactionman]

Do you know the background about the inquest disagreements? The inquest that didn't find that he died of blunt trauma to the liver is by a doctor that is currently being investigated by the BMA for malpractice, basically giving a cause of death that was favourable to the police in a number of cases.

 

[old.Tohtori]

People are also assuming the officer in question is a cold killing machine.

He's been suspended(if i read it right) from duty and his actions on the field support a theory of a young officer, with little experience.

Being suspended, knowing you killed somenoe and taking the POV that this is a regular joe, i don't think he's getting off scot free.

Also his career, beyond some light promotions, is over.

So while there isn't an official lawbook punishment, there is a punishment.

 

[inactionman]

I think that to ensure fair and honest society, the police should be held to a higher standard, same as politicians, judges and other people in similar public offices.

I think the police officer involved should be fired, and should have been charged with assault at the very least. However the investigation *cough* whitewash *cough* went on for so long that the statue of limitations for it had passed.

 

[Tom]

BBC News - No charges over G20 man's death

Not even an assault charge - join the Police - you can get away with murder...

Murder? He pushed the bloke over, he didn't shoot him. At worst its manslaughter, but it seems as though its unlikely his injuries might ever be linked to being pushed to the ground.

So what would you rather do, waste a load of money on a prosecution that'll never get a result, or just put it down to experience?

Hopefully disciplinary action will result, based not on the outcome, but on the officer shoving a person over.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think that to ensure fair and honest society, the police should be held to a higher standard, same as politicians, judges and other people in similar public offices.

Show me a fair and honest society first, then i'll agree. I can't find one aspect of human society that is fair and honesty, complete especially, is even less there.

The police also can't be judged by the same standards in cases like these, where violence is expected to happen. It was, afterall, on the job.

You have to ask yourself this;

is pushing people in a riot situation overkill by the police?

If it is expected that police will push people, then this was an accident.

 

[inactionman]

Holding the police (those who create, implement and enforce the law), etc. to a higher standard is one of those things that needs to be done to ensure that you get a fair and honest society, or at the very least a fairer and more honest society.

Have you seen that Ken Clarke has decided that private prosecutions for War Crimes and deaths in police custody (no public prosecutions in the approximately 1000 such deaths since 1992) cannot be brought? That is truely disgusting.

 

[Scouse]

I think it's a disgrace that he's not being prosecuted for assault.

He twatted a guy who was walking home and not part of a riot - and they've got that on video.

If you look at the video he's walking in front of the police with his hands in his pockets, he's given a shove in the back (assault), yet he keeps on walking (hands in pockets) and then a copper barges him to the ground (full-on assault from behind, unprovoked)

Make no mistake - if this was you or me then we'd have spent the night in the cells and probably have been banged up.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Make no mistake - if this was you or me then we'd have spent the night in the cells and probably have been banged up.

And if i shoot a guy running out of a bank, i get a murder charge.

That's what i mean when i say that police can't be judged, when on the job, like the rest.

Like i asked, do you think that it's ok for police to push people in riot situations?

Also, if it was me or you in that police place, everyone in civvies hanging in that area would be a potential problem.

 

[nath]

Like i asked, do you think that it's ok for police to push people in riot situations?

Have you seen the video?

 

[Ch3tan]

That's what i mean when i say that police can't be judged, when on the job, like the rest.

Wrong, the police should be judged exactly like the rest of us, if not harder.

To uphold the law they have to embody it.

That is not really what this thread is about though, it's pointless prosecuting someone if there is no chance of conviction. What those in outrage are failing to note is that action is still going to be taken against the officer, there is still the met review of the incident to come, plus a public inquiry.

At the least I would have liked to see the officer charged with assault, but that is a nothing charge really. All it would mean is that he could not serve as a police officer, but that outcome seems likely either way.

 

[Shagrat]

no i dont think its ok for police to push non-aggresive innocent bystanders in a riot situation.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Have you seen the video?

Yes.

Wrong, the police should be judged exactly like the rest of us, if not harder.

To uphold the law they have to embody it.

And while upholding the laws, they will do things that would bring a sentence to civilians. Actions performed by officers, done by civilians, would bring legal actions. That's why they don't get judged with the same book. See above of me shooting a bank robber.

And this thread is about it, it's as relevant to the case as any legal mumbo.

Shagrat; tempers, situation, adrenaline etc. It's not like the officer tried to kill someone, or cause serious injury with intent.

Innocent civilians get hurt in riots all the time, what you SHOULD concentrate is on the people rioting and causing this in the first place.

 

[Ch3tan]

Toht, you are a trolling idiot.

 

[old.Tohtori]

And with that the discussion is done. F*cks sake change the record or accept that everyone doesn't agree with you.

 

[rynnor]

Did you read the article Ryynor, or are you just making outraged comments as usual? Same with you inactionman - did you read the reasons for this decision?

I have followed the case since the beginning - I cant say I'm massively suprised at the outcome but 2 of 3 autopsies (including one on behalf of the policeman) concluded that he died of internal bleeding where the policeman's blow was almost certainly a contributory factor.

The only autopsy that said he died of natural causes was done by a man facing dozens of disciplinary actions from the GMC.

If the situation was reversed i.e. normal bloke knocks over copper you'd be looking at a manslaughter charge.

Its not that suprising though since it comes as part of a long line of police cover ups in London.

I hope the government steps in to preserve the public trust - policing is only possible with the co-operation of the general public and these kind of abuses place great strain on that relationship.

 

[Ch3tan]

I agree with all that ryynor, but I do not see the point of the CPS wasting public money when they don't think it will lead to conviction. As I said, hopefully other forms of inquiry and disciplinary action will hold the officer to account, and more importantly teach the Met lessons so that this is never repeated.

 

[rynnor]

I agree with all that ryynor, but I do not see the point of the CPS wasting public money when they don't think it will lead to conviction.

I dis-agree with their assesment of the case - I think you have a good chance of a conviction for manslaughter if a jury ever had a chance to consider the case.

Edit - the problem is that the police and the CPS work hand in glove so where in the same circumstances they would have prosecuted a non-policeman they throw their hands up where a policemans involved.

 

[Deebs]

And if i shoot a guy running out of a bank, i get a murder charge.

That's what i mean when i say that police can't be judged, when on the job, like the rest.

Um no you would not be charged with murder unless you knew the bank was being robbed and you killing him was pre-meditated (ie planned) otherwise it would be classed as manslaughter at worst.

Murder is pre-meditated (planned), nothing more nothing less. At least in English Law which most of the western world is based upon.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Um no you would not be charged with murder unless you knew the bank was being robbed and you killing him was pre-meditated (ie planned) otherwise it would be classed as manslaughter at worst.

Murder is pre-meditated (planned), nothing more nothing less. At least in English Law which most of the western world is based upon.

Well yes, manslaughter then, but the point being that a police officer wouldn't be charged like me.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

It'll unlike be a manslaughter charge as there was no intent to hurt. More likely to be accidental death, which would carry minimal punishment.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

I would agree he's not fit to serve as a police officer. I don't think he can be convicted of murder. Given that the experts cannot agree on the cause (yes I understand one is being investigated but it doesn't actually mean that the disagreeing expert is wrong), its very unlikely they'd get any kind of coherent prosecution that couldn't be easily undermined.

The video shows the cop pushing him but not making any deliberate move to do further harm. While it doesn't make what he did right, it does show that he didn't intend to murder him. So as said above thats Manslaughter at worst but in any case he should be kicked off the police force and have his pension revoked - which I'd bet is what will likely happen.

 

[Dark Orb Choir]

the ***** been on 16 months of paid suspension, plus they could not charge him with assault as they had waited more than 6 months, its a disgrace tbh

 

[rynnor]

(yes I understand one is being investigated but it doesn't actually mean that the disagreeing expert is wrong)

I think it is relevant here because the one expert who disagreed is looking very likely to be struck off due to errors in other autopsys

You would then have the 'divided medical opinion' consisting of two doctors on one side and a disgraced ex-doctor on the other.

I find the CPS role in this extremely suspect - they are meant to establish whether there is a prima facie case to be answered which there clearly is in this case.

They have gone beyond their remit and judged whether the evidence is sufficient to be proved beyond reasonable doubt - that is the role of a judge at trial.

 

[rynnor]

It'll unlike be a manslaughter charge as there was no intent to hurt. More likely to be accidental death, which would carry minimal punishment.

If you knock a man over and he dies then you are guilty of manslaughter if your action was a large factor in his death - thats the UK law.

Manslaughter does not require intent to harm - recklessness is sufficient as in this case.

 

[rynnor]

he should be kicked off the police force and have his pension revoked - which I'd bet is what will likely happen.

I would lay good money that he will remain in the police - probably on desk duty - let us see eh?

 

[rynnor]

I dont understand how a policeman who had retired on medical grounds was able to rejoin? This blokes really played the system:

G20 riots: policeman who stuck Ian Tomlinson faced two previous aggression inquiries - Telegraph