Todays Terror alert

[dysfunction]

And actually, yes I do believe it is worse to walk in as a suicide bomber and kill 20 people than to remotely bomb them. To be a suicide bomber you walk amongst people, straight into their midst, you sit next to the guy that smiles at you and asks if you have enough space, you walk past the woman that is trying to stop her kids from fighting, you immerse yourself in all the unsuspecting lives you are about to break, and then you do it anyway. We eat meat because the whole process of killing it is detached for us, we have morgues out of sight... there are studies into wars where they show the percentage of soldiers who are deliberately not trying to shoot people because they can actually see the lives, rather than just the target: something which sabotages the very human process of detachment. How many psychological tests do they have to do on the men with the red nuclear button to make sure they can find a man different enough from the norms to be able to press it unflinchingly? The casualties may be the same, but the level of imhumanity is much greater when that detachment is not there.

I disagree with you there.
There is no difference. When the non suicidal terrorist walks into the croud to plant their bomb they also interact as you describe above....the only diff is is the time of detonation. I doubt the suicide bomber is thinking about any of the people he is about to blow up. He thinks of himself and the "good" he will do for his god and people.

In fact someone who doesnt kill himslef is a lot worse as he can learn from what he did wrong and do it again and again...

 

[Munkey]

See the hassle caused

Everyone sees everything different there is just no common sense. They are killing people over shit that cant be proved as fact. How can you talk to these people?

But they believe they can prove it as fact. Using science as well to prove it.

And my "or something" bit is because I can't remember how it was explained to me This was all about 3 years ago.

I believe that most of the problems arise from countries where religion and state are entwined together. At least in my primary schools/high schools all we ever had was the lords prayer during assembly. In other countries, hours are spent learning from religious texts and being taught their meaning by people who truly believe in them.

I dunno, I just think that State and Religion should be firmly seperated. UK has a good balance. Creates interest in religion for people but never forces it onto them...hence the large number of atheists in the country


Funny fact: Was talking to my missus about all this last night, she's a muslim, and she was suprised to find out Jesus is in the Qur'an.

 

[Munkey]

I disagree with you there.
There is no difference. When the non suicidal terrorist walks into the croud to plant their bomb they also interact as you describe above....the only diff is is the time of detonation. I doubt the suicide bomber is thinking about any of the people he is about to blow up. He thinks of himself and the "good" he will do for his god and people.

In fact someone who doesnt kill himslef is a lot worse as he can learn from what he did wrong and do it again and again...

Thats like the whole psychological discussion we had a while back: would you push a switch to kill 200 people but save 1000 or would you personally kill 200 people (with a knife or somesuch) to save 1000.

 

[Furr]

Depends who those 1000 people are

First i hope that this wasn't a mistake, secondly I want the police to parade them if they are guilty on television etc to stop all those muslims on the al-beeb from saying "Nah mate, they don't do nutin, im a retard. Its the goverments fault init, etc etc" and hang their heads in shame as once again member following their religion are shown to be barbaric murderers

And once again it seems as if its the pakistani community. No big surprises there then.

 

[Bugz]

Thats like the whole psychological discussion we had a while back: would you push a switch to kill 200 people but save 1000 or would you personally kill 200 people (with a knife or somesuch) to save 1000.

The huge, huge majority of the population would never encounter a situation like that so phycholoically, we don't go into too much thinking about it.

It is only really a concern for people like Tony Blair and George W. Bush, who may encounter such situations.

Depends who those 1000 people are...

I think anyone would have trouble choosing to kill 200 people for saving 1000. It is no easy decision and can't be decided on 'who those 1000 people are.' The mind should (and hopefully would) work differently if the actual occasion occured.

 

[Munkey]

The huge, huge majority of the population would never encounter a situation like that so phycholoically, we don't go into too much thinking about it.

It is only really a concern for people like Tony Blair and George W. Bush, who may encounter such situations.

But the suicide bombers do, he makes a point when he says that they do honestly believe that they are making a difference and leading to their aim.

 

[Panda On Smack]

I just watched "Blazing Saddles" and laughed a lot.

Am I in trouble?

 

[Tom]

Suicide bombers are weak minded fools indoctrinated into believing that they'll have access to paradise and plenty of virgins.

Which kind of says a lot about what those people think of women. "Hey, become a Muslim woman, get treated like shit, raped and stoned to death - and if you die before you have sex, you'll be a sex slave for a man who just blew himself and a load of innocent people into tiny bits!"


I'd like to invent a massive holographic projector, stick it on a satellite, and beam an image of Mohammed down over Mecca, with a recording telling them to stop what they're fucking doing, or they won't find virgins in heaven, rather they'll find Vlad the Impaler with a few rusty implements...

 

[Munkey]

Some of them do believe that they are generally making a difference in the situation affecting their people (e.g. in Palestine)

 

[Yaka]

"This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off, or they shall be banished from the land." Surah V

"Fight them [the unbelievers], till there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely." Surah VIII

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush." Surah IX


"When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads." Surah XLVII

badly translated and no point just pasting the odd line from a verse. you could paste lines from many other books and get the same blood thirsty picture

 

[Guest]

Until further notice BA has halted all flights from the UK.



BA announced "I aint getting on no plane you crazy fool"

 

[rynnor]

Look at this way, for all our flaws, in the West we protest against the Iraq war, we condemn Guantanamo, we tolerate other cultures; we see what we're doing wrong and people have a means (however flawed) of forcing change without blowing each other's brains out. When the opposing system has none of that, what are you supposed to do?

Aye, this is the crux of it, though I see flaws in our society its still the best in the world bar none - Brits are a sensible people and I dont believe the current problems will cause our society to fracture.

The answer to DaGaffers question is that you go on acting in exactly the same ways as before - to do anything else is to let the nutters win.

 

[Whipped]

This latest terrorist plot just stinks of cowardism to me. There's no one to fight/shoot back at you. You merrily get on a plane, whistling your worries away and then, when everyone least expects it, you kill the whole fucking lot.

Anyway, a couple of things.

First, I have a couple of suggestions for making planes safer.

1. Have passengers and luggage flown in seperate planes. This will reduce the risks of bombings, however it will make the environmentalists go nuts because of the extra plane loads.
2. Get big U-Haul's with wings, attach them to the back of jumbos and put all the luggage in there. Any explosion will then only affect Auntie Rosies bloomers.
3. Make all long haul flights play looped copies of Duce Bigalow - Male Gigalo. At least then, if someone makes the plane crash, you will have already lost the will to live and won't really care either way.

For the people that can't see it, the above suggestions were an attempt to be humerous. I figured the thread needed some lighting up

Second. Watching the news tonight it seems that all the names of people were given to the authorities by someone they arrested in Pakistan. Odds on him surviving any witness protection program?

Finally, this quote sums up everything really.

They're just using religon as an excuse to be realy crappy to each other

 

[rynnor]

1. Have passengers and luggage flown in seperate planes. This will reduce the risks of bombings, however it will make the environmentalists go nuts because of the extra plane loads.

That ones not completely nutty although theres still a risk of explosives mules stuffing themselves chock full of explosives plus detonator - no system is foolproof.

Edit - Oh and what about explosive tampons!!!

 

[throdgrain]

Aye, this is the crux of it, though I see flaws in our society its still the best in the world bar none - Brits are a sensible people and I dont believe the current problems will cause our society to fracture.

The answer to DaGaffers question is that you go on acting in exactly the same ways as before - to do anything else is to let the nutters win.

Wise words. My only concern is that we're so "sensible", we let people get away with murder -literally- whilst we're here being all rational and sensitive to others needs, the fuckers are planning on ways of blowing us up.

 

[adams901]

we let people get away with murder -literally-.

The PC brigade and Human Rights campaigners wouldnt have it any other way. Wouldn't want to hurt the poor terrorists feelings.

 

[Tom]

Edit - Oh and what about explosive tampons!!!

I think you're underestimating the structural integrity of your average passenger aircraft.....

 

[Paradroid]

They developed bomb-proof containers years ago (I saw it on the telly!) but it was too costly.

I'd always thought the passenger section should be a giant phallic (metallic) escape pod with parachutes. Same with trains, except they'd have huge air-bags exploding out of its sides to allow it to roll to safety.

I just watched "Blazing Saddles" and laughed a lot.

Am I in trouble?

Yes, but only if you were laughing at:
Continuity errors.
The costumes used in the gay-dance routine at the end.
The notion of a black sheriff and all the black/slave jokes only.
(knee-slapping might be an indicator of a racial hate crime at that point)



Film t'is the laugh, no doubts.

 

[Deady]

CNN ran a segment discussing why Britain has a homegrown terrorist problem and the USA seemingly doesn't.

It was quite interesting, and their conclusion was that it came down to belonging. In the USA, Muslims buy into the "American Dream" and feel as if they belong. On the contrary, there is no "British Dream" - as a nation were pretty detached from each other and we dont have a common goal.

I guess extremist views and working for an extreme agenda gives some people a cause to fight for. Especially if the cause is presented to them cleverly. The news often goes to pains to point out that these young men are "intelligent". Maybe compared to your average Joe down the pub, but if they were truly intelligent they'd see past the propaganda that is Al' Quada. At most they're normal, university going students, and we all know how university students love to fight for a cause - be it protecting rainforests, anti-corporation etc. This extremism could be seen as an extension of that mentality. This theory tends to gain a bit more credability too, with the fact that one of the recently arrested had only converted to Islam a few months ago. Surely someone who converted 3(?) months ago could not have a true understanding of what Islam is about. It's more likely he was swept along in a wave of extremist propaganda and loved the idea of fighting for a cause.

I think terrorism will be stoppable eventually. But we'll need to be prepared to lose a bit of privacy - but who cares if the government can read your mails and listen to your phone calls if they were legally bound to only pursue leads that related to terrorism. The web needs a little control too - national blocking of extremist websites across all uk ISPs for starters.

 

[rynnor]

It was quite interesting, and their conclusion was that it came down to belonging. In the USA, Muslims buy into the "American Dream" and feel as if they belong. On the contrary, there is no "British Dream" - as a nation were pretty detached from each other and we dont have a common goal.

There is an element of this no doubt but I feel a larger factor is the difference in immigration policy - its so much easier to get into the UK.

Since we joined the EU single market in the early 90's our borders have been wide open.

And theres a welfare system if their too busy being religious to work - this made the UK a perfect place for extremists to visit and work on converting UK citizens to their cause.

Once converted they could just wait on the dole to be activated.

 

[rynnor]

I think you're underestimating the structural integrity of your average passenger aircraft.....

What about Super size??

 

[rynnor]

I think terrorism will be stoppable eventually. But we'll need to be prepared to lose a bit of privacy - but who cares if the government can read your mails and listen to your phone calls if they were legally bound to only pursue leads that related to terrorism. The web needs a little control too - national blocking of extremist websites across all uk ISPs for starters.

Good luck with that - terrorism has never been defeated in the history of the world by any kind of security measures so its just not going to happen.

You can only stop terrorism by addressing the causes - everyone understands this but since the currently in power political figures created many of the causes of terrorism they have a vested interest in scuppering this particular line of arguement out of their own self interest.

As to controlling the web thats even less unlikely - you cant block content at a national level due to proxies and as to filtering data theres a lot of powerfull encryption available out there.

 

[rynnor]

Wise words. My only concern is that we're so "sensible", we let people get away with murder -literally- whilst we're here being all rational and sensitive to others needs, the fuckers are planning on ways of blowing us up.

Even if they are you cant fight extremism with extremism - I dont want to see this country turn into some grim caricature of its traditional respect for justice.

I would rather face a statistically small chance of die'ing from terrorism than see our civil liberties in shreds and when it comes right down to it I dont believe the 'homeland security' style ideas can actually defeat terrorism so its a waste of time.

We must address the causes of terrorism.

 

[throdgrain]

I disagree with that old chesnut Rynnor. We must address the causes of <insert anything> is the way liberal thinking has continued for the last few decades. I would have agreed with it myself at one point. However having lived through the past few decades fills me with experience. The must- address-the-causes statement is a fine soundbite but offers NO practical solutions except of the "free holidays for criminals" type. You know, its not thier fault they're peodophiles/rapists/muggers/arsonists/terrorists we must try to understand thier problems. Its this way of thinking that imo has led to the horrible situation the country is in right now, where the criminal has nigh on as much rights as the victim.

On a lighter note this post on my other forum , regarding the same topic, amused my so much Im going to paste it here too

You don't need passenger profiling, simply install a bacon sandwich checkpoint at the security desk, anyone not eating the required grammage of pig meat is denied the flight and whisked off to the Guantanamo check in. This has the added advantage of providing a free snack to sustain the waiting throng during the now standard 5 hour check in while at the same time preventing all the good holiday beaches being overrun by veggie tree huggers.
__________________

 

[Trem]

Bacon could sort out many of the worlds problems, why no government has picked up on this I don't know.

Pair it with WHITE bread and it is truly a powerful force.


BACON AND TREM FOR PRESIDENT!!



Don't get me started on jam though


I like Jeremy Clarksons idea - ban anyone from flying who has facial hair.

 

[throdgrain]

Bacon + brown bread = ewww

 

[Trem]

I can't believe you said those 3 words together in the same sentence.

For that disrespect I may explode your whole street and call your god a cock and say my god is always right and yours smells of wee

I had an idea, that started with my dad moaning about the local marathon, he said "if those silly fuckers want to run around then put them in a field and let them run there instead of closing all the roads off" my idea is to put all the would-be blowers up of things in a field and let them explode to their hearts content, seriously fuck 'em, they are too dim to know anything else.

There is no god of any shape or form, there truly isn't. Watch someone die or see a dead body and tell me there is a god. You die and you ither get burned or turned to dust, end of story.

 

[throdgrain]

Agreed mate, unfortunately .

 

[Furr]

Muslims belive that they should recieve special treatment, the other cultures in the country have worked to benefit and add to our society. What has Islam given us?

More problems than benefits and they contine to do so.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Muslims belive that they should recieve special treatment, the other cultures in the country have worked to benefit and add to our society. What has Islam given us?

More problems than benefits and they contine to do so.

Look before judging.