Todays Terror alert

[Paradroid]

Well, assuming this isn't just all a load of bullshit ...

...
... I used to be relativly moderate but since 7/7, the failed bombings, the ricin scare, todays information, i am slowing coming to the point that I would rather we stop pussy footing around the issue, point our fingers at the community and tell them to fix up or get out.

You mention "failed bombings", are you talking about the plot to fly planes into London buildings? Wasn't that an official load of crap?

I did see the ricin scare completely exposed as a farce too (can't remember the documentary, was it the one about politicians using fear to control the masses?).

Anyway, well done Test Subject #3812876B. You have successfully completed the indoctrination programme and are exhibiting all the desired thoughts and behaviours. Proceed to Phase 2 and collect your jackboots.
Paranoid? Good. Out of the door. Line on the left. One uniform each. Next.

 

[Raven]

yes the madrid bombing

<dons pedantic hat> wasnt that internal? basque (sp?) terrorists?

 

[Mofo8]

Seriously, tell me. What justifies murder to you ? I know how this conversation is gonna go but make your pitch anyway.

I was going to post this link in the Lebanon thread, but it works here too:

http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me5.html

The first clip is sheer class, the second is good, but it's the third and fourth clips that attempt to answer the question "Why do they hate us?"

What justifies murder? If someone raped and killed your mother or sister or killed your father or brother, I suppose people would understand if you sought revenge. Or if someone broke into your house and said it was now their house, you might get a bit pissed off. Its much like the way that Irish Americans and Irish Catholics from the republic used to support or even join the IRA. They saw the oppressed Catholics in the North as being their brothers and sisters.

Or what about the thousands of working class people from the UK that went to Spain in the thirties to fight against fascism? Where they terrorists? They went to kill and be killed because thay believed that they were right and Franco was wrong. All I'm saying now is that Israel, the USA and the UK are in the wrong. We are the oppressors this time round. We are the bad guys.

 

[Wij]

Its much like the way that Irish Americans and Irish Catholics from the republic used to support or even join the IRA. They saw the oppressed Catholics in the North as being their brothers and sisters.

That's just the point. How deluded can you be ? You lay a claim to something for one reason, somebody else lays a claim to it for another. You ignore their viewpoint and lay every ill in your life at their door. It's a self-destructive mindset. Ask someone like Sar who's lived in the middle of it if he thinks one side is right and the other is wrong. It's not that simple. Everyone has a reasonable beef against the other side but blowing people up just makes it worse.

And if you DARE say that 'someone blew someone else up first so it's ok to blow someone else up back' then CTFOADOA tbh.

 

[Damini]

All I'm saying now is that Israel, the USA and the UK are in the wrong. We are the oppressors this time round. We are the bad guys.

Yes, so we should march into a nursey, and start shooting british babies. Or maybe another Beslan, or perhaps just just shoot every fifth person we meet in England. If you can justify the act of blowing up families on trains, commuters, people working in the twin towers, then where do you draw the line? I'm angry about American policy, so tomorrow I will shoot some foreign exchange students. I dislike hitler's policies, so I will now kill men with moustaches.

*WE* are not the bad guys. You might be, the government might be, but I sure as hell am not. I didn't vote in Blair. I certainly didn't vote in Bush. (Not that I view either of these as reasons someone should be murdered!) I can understand attacking military targets, but not cold blooded murder of innocent people simply because terrorists have rage so blind it strips the humanity from them. I can understand revenge - I cannot understand that morphing into ambitions of genocide. This is not some glorified revenge attack, by freedom fighters - this has far more parallels with the holocaust, where nazis saw the jews as inferior creatures because of their religion and breeding, whereas now the percieved inferiority lies in religion and morality.

Those people that went to Spain in the thirties to fight facism didn't do it by attacking soft civilian targets. They didn't go around beheading every Spaniard they met, snugly wrapped in their moral superiority and faith in a cause. Even the IRA tended to phone in warnings - frequently they were after the statement far more than the death toll in their attacks in the UK. I think it's naive to apply idealistic standards to a practice which is effectively the death of idealism, an act made not to achieve aspirations but simply to take lives and revel in the death toll of it.

 

[Munkey]

*WE* are not the bad guys. You might be, the government might be, but I sure as hell am not. I didn't vote in Blair. I certainly didn't vote in Bush. (Not that I view either of these as reasons someone should be murdered!).

Just to point this out, Isreal seems to believe that guilty by association (i.e. being in the same country) is enough.

And to address some other points: Some of the best people I've ever met are muslims, my best friend is a Christian, but then he is Palestinian. The actions of the vast majority of British Expatriates in the Middle-East are quite despicable, we still have the mentality that we are better than everyone else (even I hold this opinion sometimes, especially in regards to Indians.) Is it right? No. But racism is always going to be there, we (the world) just can't help it. The only thing we can try and do are to remove misconceptions, at least that way we'd have a proper basis for our racism, rather than being reactionary.

 

[Paradroid]

Yes, so we should march into a nursey, and start shooting british babies. Or maybe another Beslan, or perhaps just just shoot every fifth person we meet in England. If you can justify the act of blowing up families on trains, commuters, people working in the twin towers, then where do you draw the line? I'm angry about American policy, so tomorrow I will shoot some foreign exchange students. I dislike hitler's policies, so I will now kill men with moustaches.

*WE* are not the bad guys. You might be, the government might be, but I sure as hell am not. I didn't vote in Blair. I certainly didn't vote in Bush. (Not that I view either of these as reasons someone should be murdered!) I can understand attacking military targets, but not cold blooded murder of innocent people simply because terrorists have rage so blind it strips the humanity from them. I can understand revenge - I cannot understand that morphing into ambitions of genocide. This is not some glorified revenge attack, by freedom fighters - this has far more parallels with the holocaust, where nazis saw the jews as inferior creatures because of their religion and breeding, whereas now the percieved inferiority lies in religion and morality.

Those people that went to Spain in the thirties to fight facism didn't do it by attacking soft civilian targets. They didn't go around beheading every Spaniard they met, snugly wrapped in their moral superiority and faith in a cause. Even the IRA tended to phone in warnings - frequently they were after the statement far more than the death toll in their attacks in the UK. I think it's naive to apply idealistic standards to a practice which is effectively the death of idealism, an act made not to achieve aspirations but simply to take lives and revel in the death toll of it.

You seem to be arguing for some civility in the killings. Like a suicide bomber taking out 20 of our civilians is worse than 20 of their civilians (far away) being killed by planes & bombs?

I think the jist of Mofo8s point was that we created this whole mess and we're still managing to make it worse. Out actions have created, and continue to create, our present situation. Is it any wonder people want us dead when we kill them?

We had a 2-minute silence in rememberance of 7/7 this year (honouring all the dead victims), but how many soldiers have died in the last year in Iraq/Afghanistan? I honestly don't know and the public don't seem too bothered. If a terrorist kills a soldier it gets little media, so they could well have valid aspirations. Kamikazi's never got bad press back home, they were even idolised by the west for generations after the war.

How many world conflicts came to your attention through "news worthy" events like terrorism? I wouldn't have known about problems in Chechnya or Indonesia if it wasn't for terrorism.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in peaceful grass-roots-demonstration-type-thingies, with Ghandi taking the blows up-front.




...but others don't.

 

[throdgrain]

When I read some of thr posts in this thread I feel sad.
Then I get annoyed, then I realise the attitudes will change as they get older and possibly have more to protect. Aint that patronising ay? I would have been outraged when I was 21 and someone had said that to me .
Some of these posts also make me think Id like to emigrate to the USA.

 

[Calaen]

Why are they rebelling against us having soldiers in the middle east they are fucking british, most of them have never been to their so called homeland because its shit and they have the life of riley in Britain.

I like America and I love England, I believe we were right to go into Iraq and Afghanistan. I have no doubt we will go into Iran aswell. We cannot allow someone that does not value human life to be in control of Nuclear weapons so dont give me no shit about how everyone else has them. No one else is dumb enough to use them for no fucking reason other than to cleanse the world of evil.

The sooner we start pointing and ridiculing these fools and letting them no its not big and its certainly not clever, the better.

 

[DaGaffer]

<dons pedantic hat> wasnt that internal? basque (sp?) terrorists?

No it wasn't. The Spanish government at the time tried to blame it on the Basques, but when it turned out to be Islamists the government fell because they were supporters of the Iraq invasion. Spanish troops were gone within the month. Please keep up

 

[DaGaffer]

Got to say, first of all, Furr and Throd, well over the top guys. You can't blame every Pakistani for the actions of a few.

Secondly, Paradroid and Mofo8, yes, you're correct that some of this is of our own making, but, you're guilty (like most of us are) of lumping all the middle east's ills into one mass and then pointing the finger at the West as the cause of all the problems. Its just not that simple, and even if it was, there reaches a point where you have to take a side, and I'm sorry, but if its a choice between flawed Western values and frankly abhorrent Islamic values (even parts of moderate Islam are offensive to me), then its no contest. I know that smacks of "my country, right or wrong", but when it comes to Pakistani kids living here in the UK, we have a right to expect they won't blow us up.

Its particularly galling that most of these people (just like the 9/11 bombers) are massive hypocrites who are happy to live a western lifestyle up until the point when they go and make their bid for martyrdom.

Look at this way, for all our flaws, in the West we protest against the Iraq war, we condemn Guantanamo, we tolerate other cultures; we see what we're doing wrong and people have a means (however flawed) of forcing change without blowing each other's brains out. When the opposing system has none of that, what are you supposed to do?

 

[Furr]

You mention "failed bombings", are you talking about the plot to fly planes into London buildings? Wasn't that an official load of crap?

No the the suicide bombers who tried to bomb the tube a week later but the explosives didn't work. anyway Paradroid whats your knowledge of the community apart from what you read in the newspaper? You may have met the odd dozen who are happy. But many of them are far from that.

All im saying, is this community has a large element of people that don't agree with our foriegn policy and kill innoncent children and civilians as a tool then they have no right to live. Im not going to make any excuses that we should try to listen to them. They are just plain evil and should be shot.

 

[throdgrain]

Yeah. There seems to be a lot of people living here who enjoy our country and its services, but see Islam as the greater law, above ours. Implicitly these people support the terrorists in my opinion, and should be removed.
DaGaffer - I dont blame "every Pakistani" mate, niether am I a racist, though why I should have to qualify this Ive no idea. Maybe Im a "religionist" ay ?

 

[GDW]

I don't believe they should be shot. They should be fucking tortured to within an inch of their live, revived, rinse and repeat until they are either reduced to a vegetable or become old men.

 

[Tom]

Yeah. There seems to be a lot of people living here who enjoy our country and its services, but see Islam as the greater law, above ours. Implicitly these people support the terrorists in my opinion, and should be removed.
DaGaffer - I dont blame "every Pakistani" mate, niether am I a racist, though why I should have to qualify this Ive no idea. Maybe Im a "religionist" ay ?

So how would you go about identifying such people?

If they were born in this country, where would you 'kick them out' to? Would other countries accept them for that matter (can't just dump people on a beach and sail off)?

 

[Calaen]

So how would you go about identifying such people?

If they were born in this country, where would you 'kick them out' to? Would other countries accept them for that matter (can't just dump people on a beach and sail off)?

We could pack them off to which ever country they believe they are standing up for.

 

[Damini]

You seem to be arguing for some civility in the killings. Like a suicide bomber taking out 20 of our civilians is worse than 20 of their civilians (far away) being killed by planes & bombs?

I think the jist of Mofo8s point was that we created this whole mess and we're still managing to make it worse. Out actions have created, and continue to create, our present situation. Is it any wonder people want us dead when we kill them?

We had a 2-minute silence in rememberance of 7/7 this year (honouring all the dead victims), but how many soldiers have died in the last year in Iraq/Afghanistan? I honestly don't know and the public don't seem too bothered. If a terrorist kills a soldier it gets little media, so they could well have valid aspirations. Kamikazi's never got bad press back home, they were even idolised by the west for generations after the war.

How many world conflicts came to your attention through "news worthy" events like terrorism? I wouldn't have known about problems in Chechnya or Indonesia if it wasn't for terrorism.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in peaceful grass-roots-demonstration-type-thingies, with Ghandi taking the blows up-front.




...but others don't.

What is wrong with asking for some civility in killings? I recognise that war sometimes has to happen, I recognise that deaths sometimes have to occur for things to change, but does that necessarily have to make me an advocate of massacres, genocides, indiscriminate deaths?

And actually, yes I do believe it is worse to walk in as a suicide bomber and kill 20 people than to remotely bomb them. To be a suicide bomber you walk amongst people, straight into their midst, you sit next to the guy that smiles at you and asks if you have enough space, you walk past the woman that is trying to stop her kids from fighting, you immerse yourself in all the unsuspecting lives you are about to break, and then you do it anyway. We eat meat because the whole process of killing it is detached for us, we have morgues out of sight... there are studies into wars where they show the percentage of soldiers who are deliberately not trying to shoot people because they can actually see the lives, rather than just the target: something which sabotages the very human process of detachment. How many psychological tests do they have to do on the men with the red nuclear button to make sure they can find a man different enough from the norms to be able to press it unflinchingly? The casualties may be the same, but the level of imhumanity is much greater when that detachment is not there.

Now I am going to have people raging at me that a life is a life, which is predictable, but even our justice system recognises the importance of the method in which a life is taken when handing out punishments. Whole rafts of philosophical questions have been framed purely to probe at the way humans deal with the notion of taking life - fat man stuck in a mine shaft, two sets of train tracks, world famous violinst, etc...

The war on terror is shit. Starting wars to drive out terror is like starting fires so you can drive out smoke. It's a massive exercise in folly, and I can understand the process that creates more terrorists. I simply cannot condone the end product though.

It seems very trendy these days to abort parts of your humanity, to defend the indefensible. Innocent lives are innocent lives, whether they are stranded in Lebanon in a building being bombed, whether they are Isrealis being hit with ball bearing missiles, whether they are Iraqis targeted at a funeral, whether they are British commuters on the way to work.

 

[TdC]

Throd, can you imagine the chaos if two thousand years of christian culture was drilled into every "western" person? what if a mullah, err, I mean chaplain, or whatever decreed that the wrath of god had to be handed out to all who didn't revere baby Jebus and people didn't believe that it may not be that good an idea?

Iirc it's not for nothing that church and state have been separated for most of us. Thou shalt not kill says the church, and the state says you'll be put away of you're suspected of committing murder, tried and found guilty, but I believe that certain posts in this thread were describing situations where "revenge" is bloody condoned. I can understand wanting to kill the bastard who tossed a grenade into your house, destroying your familly while you had to watch, and tbh, if the watcher was me I'd prolly die trying to kill whoever'd done it, I'll fully admit that, but that doesn't make me (or them) any less wrong does it?

It takes a very very strong person to resist the base urge and leave the matter in the hands of the authorities, and if I may go back to post WWII, it wasn't any policeman who found the hiding nazis was it now, it was people like you and me who found them, and pointed them out to the authorities, and only then were some of them tried and sentenced. ffs I'm rambling

 

[throdgrain]

I dont get your point tbh teeds

 

[bob269]

If these 21 people they've caught were willing to blow themselves up why don't we let them in a controlled environment, its pointless deporting them as they'll go to some other country and do it.

 

[Calaen]

If these 21 people they've caught were willing to blow themselves up why don't we let them in a controlled environment, its pointless deporting them as they'll go to some other country and do it.

agreed.

We could make it a sport!!!!! 22 terrorists only 1 bomb jacket in the middle of them all the winner of the 20 virgins and a million cigars is the guy who gets the jacket on and detonates it killing the others. Rar this could catch on.

 

[adams901]

Nobody's asked why young British Muslim men might contemplate suicide bombings! Is it because they want to kill or convert all Christians and found an Islamic Sharia state in the UK? I don't fucking think so! Is it not more likely that their blood is boiling over issues like Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine and Lebanon, where they see the west as being invaders and aggressors? Most fucking probably!

Invaders of what?, are they not British born Muslims? (not young iraqi muslims or young Afghan Muslims, they are young BRITISH Muslims), if they are so unhappy about the way this country is run and the decisions it makes, and are so upset about what is happening in Iraq and other places that they feel the need to do violence then why don't they fuck off to those countries and see if they can make a difference, not target civilians?

Your argument may make a tiny bit more sense if it was muslims from the occupied countries that were trying to cause all this death, not people born in this country.

There are a lot of non Muslims upset and angry about the wars, they don't run around trying to kill as many people as they can, most protest and a few decide to visit the country in question.

 

[throdgrain]

Fucking right Adams. Its religion that causes all this, yet this lot cant see that.

 

[Lazarus]

Fucking right Adams. Its religion that causes all this, yet this lot cant see that.

slightly contradictory here throd. Its not religion that causes this - its extremists USING religion for their own end.

There is nothing in the Koraan that condones or desires killing.

And - there is more to being Muslim than being a Pakistani. Not all Pakistanis are Muslims and not all Muslims are Pakistanis.

Not all Pakistanis in this country are mass killers of innocent families - many of those born and raised HERE live life as we do - with access to curries every night.

 

[throdgrain]

There is nothing in the Koraan that condones or desires killing.

"This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off, or they shall be banished from the land." Surah V

"Fight them [the unbelievers], till there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely." Surah VIII

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush." Surah IX


"When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads." Surah XLVII

 

[throdgrain]

Not all Pakistanis in this country are mass killers of innocent families - many of those born and raised HERE live life as we do - with access to curries every night.

Never in any post I have ever made have I ever suggested that mate.

 

[Lazarus]

sorry throd - that last part wasnt directed at you - sorry for not making it clearer.

as for the extract from the Koraan - thats in english - obviously translated. Wife tells me there isnt that "context" in the original Koran

 

[Munkey]

What Throd says is true, and that kind of thinking carries through, but most of the time not to the point of killing. It's mostly bypassed by the belief that Jews and Christians believe in the same God, but have got it all wrong, thus qualifying them as believers who have been misled.

But then there are the people who believe that anyone who doesn't believe in the Qur'an's version (i.e. the Prophet Mohammed, Jesus being a prophet etc.) are unbelievers.

Or at least thats how my friend described it to me.

(ooo. now that I remember it properly: The Unbelievers were those who did not believe in god and opposed Mohammed, Mohammed raised an army and fought them and this is where it all came from. Jews/Christians believe in God and are therefore believers. But there are some who still believe that they qualify as unbelievers)

or

well

something like that.

Doesn't excuse it, just explaining the reasoning behind it.

 

[Calaen]

or

well

something like that.

Doesn't excuse it, just explaining the reasoning behind it.

See the hassle caused

Everyone sees everything different there is just no common sense. They are killing people over shit that cant be proved as fact. How can you talk to these people?

 

[TdC]

I dont get your point tbh teeds

yeah mate, sorry I rambled off