Toa Lag -- Right-Now Appeal

[Inca]

Perhaps the people without these problems (and according to the GM they are in the majority) can tell us which ISP's we should use. Seems most of the player's posting on here have bad isps and bad machines and whatever else... so lets try and take a constructive approach towards this. What machines should we have to experience these lag free conditions? what ISP should we use as clearly the multitude of companies mentioned on here are all letting down our daoc experience...

Sick of being sarcastic, i am 1 of many who has missed out on MLs cause of linkdeads and lag, while i accept there is always gonna be the odd hickup and naturally they are as likely to be our ISPs/machines and whatever, quite blatantly even a GM can see there is an issue and denying it is as insulting as it is offputting. I wouldn't dream of playing a free game, i would much rather pay and enjoy updates, exploit removal and improvement in gameplay but the replies here on top of the enormous lag, they make you wonder where your money is going. I apprecaite Prydwen has a lower population than other severs (which you would think would mean less lag) but that shouldn't mean we get no service whatsoever. 50 people on a TOA ML raid is always gonna slow down the performance a little, no1 is ignorant to that but clearly when there are 3 lovely green dots and 5 or more seconds lag there is a problem. A lot of players on here aren'tposting to whine but just to highlight the problem, if the GMs reply is genuine and they don't believe there is a problem, surely the responses here at least prompt the possibility.....

My 2 cents...

 

[Lendan]

, quite blatantly even a GM can see there is an issue and denying it is as insulting as it is offputting.

Quite right, and it's a shame that the GM in question seems quite content to tow the company line and not dig any deeper.

 

[Damon_D]

Firstly a couple of clarifications. Excal and Pryd are running exactly the same hardware, the two servers are identically specced with high end server boxes and network gear.
ToA will always be laggier than other zones because of the way it has been made. As it's all one very big zone (which is usually heavily populated), the server has to send your client a great deal of information, much more than other zones. This means that a latency problem which is undetectable in other areas can become a problem in ToA.
If the problem was within our network then every player in that zone would encounter it. This is not the case, there does appear to be a widespread problem but it is not by any means universal.
What I'd suggest you do is to download Pingplotter from http://www.pingplotter.com/downloads/pngplt_2.exe and let it run for about ten minutes. This will give you an idea of where in the routing the latency is occuring. All the pingplot graphs I've seen in RightNow reports have the large packetloss occuring outside our network. The one above shows normal levels of latency (40-50 ms) in our network but it was only run for a few seconds so isn't much of a guide to the situation over time.
If the problem is with a hub outside our network then the only thing to do is to contact your ISP and ask them to look into the routing issue. This is something that we cannot do for you as we are not your ISPs customers.

Sample Information
"05-07-2004 20:13:10",0,23,22,26,26,40,40,42,49,51,49,51,49,51
"05-07-2004 20:13:25",0,22,22,25,49,37,38,42,87,49,48,49,257,246
"05-07-2004 20:13:40",0,21,22,25,25,37,37,42,48,48,48,50,48,49
"05-07-2004 20:13:55",0,22,22,25,24,37,38,42,49,71,48,49,260,249
"05-07-2004 20:14:10",0,21,21,25,25,37,39,42,49,50,48,48,49,50
"05-07-2004 20:14:25",0,22,22,24,26,43,37,43,48,48,49,48,259,245

hmm seems to jump quit a bit imho 50 then 250 , 50 then 250

 

[Cylian]

if it were our ISPs or PCs, the rest of the game would lag just as much as ToA.
It doesn't. It's only ToA, not classic, not SI, not ToA Dungeons.

 

[od_immortalis]

if it were our ISPs or PCs, the rest of the game would lag just as much as ToA.
It doesn't. It's only ToA, not classic, not SI, not ToA Dungeons.

pwnd :worthy:

 

[Azathrim]

Requiel, your point about open-air ToA zones seems at first glance as a valid explanation.

However, it is reported by many people that they don't have the same issue on Excalibur. Can this be explained by your model?

Furthermore, you have a second point. You are not a network technician. Although, I do very much appriciate the effort and time you put into opening a dialog on the subject with the community - I feel the Midgard Prydwen community needs to see this addressed by those that have the knowledge to look into it.

A community manager / public relationship manager does not apply for that. Can you please return our feedback to the techies and ask them for a report. Can you please post said report as a newspost on camelot-europe.com.

The subject on all major channels used in ToA have been lag for the past days/week.

We need this addressed.

Thank you Requiel.

/Azathrim

 

[Svenfleet]

5+ second TOA lag, all green performance indicators, move to classic or SI and lag just disappears. Also the minute a BG ML finishes somewhere in TOA, the lag suddenly disappears.

I'm sorry but this is clearly nothing related to client network issues! With every mid experiencing this reguardless of network or hardware config, its definitely server related. The lag is about as bad as its ever been, and its not really possible to play TOA in its current state.

 

[xxManiacxx]

Well I have the same problem on Mid/Pryd but not on alb/exc.

Can´t be my comp for sure. Think my AMD64 3200+ with 2gb DDR and a 9700PRO can handle it.

If it was routing problems it would be the same problem wherever I go on the server but it is not. I haven´t Right Now´ed it because I know it won´t make any difference. The problem have existed quite some time now and will probably not just go away.

Not anything wrong with routing either imo.

Target Name: N/A
IP: 193.252.123.177
Date/Time: 2004-07-05 20:54:30 to 2004-07-05 20:56:15

1 1 ms 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms 0 ms [192.168.0.1]
2 5 ms 6 ms 5 ms 5 ms 6 ms 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms gw-n2fls301o1034.telia.com [81.226.161.1]
3 6 ms 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms 6 ms 7 ms [10.0.111.1]
4 8 ms 6 ms 7 ms 6 ms 8 ms 190 ms 7 ms 7 ms aepv-d7-geth1-2.se.telia.net [81.224.206.126]
5 * 7 ms 8 ms 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms 8 ms 8 ms hy-c1-link.se.telia.net [81.228.72.62]
6 9 ms 7 ms 23 ms 8 ms 8 ms 7 ms 8 ms 7 ms s-b4-pos14-0.telia.net [213.248.101.142]
7 8 ms 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms 8 ms 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms s-b3-pos11-0.telia.net [213.248.64.150]
8 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms 8 ms 7 ms 7 ms 8 ms france-telecom-s.telia.net [213.248.67.126]
9 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms 7 ms 8 ms 8 ms 8 ms P10-0.STHBB1.Stockholm.opentransit.net [193.251.240.113]
10 14 ms 15 ms 15 ms 15 ms 15 ms 15 ms 15 ms 15 ms P10-0.COPBB1.Copenhagen.opentransit.net [193.251.240.153]
11 18 ms 18 ms 19 ms 18 ms 19 ms 19 ms 19 ms 19 ms P2-0.COPBB2.Copenhagen.opentransit.net [193.251.240.18]
12 39 ms 38 ms 40 ms 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms 43 ms So4-0-0.FFTCR1.Frankfurt.opentransit.net [193.251.129.89]
13 45 ms 38 ms 39 ms 39 ms 38 ms 38 ms 38 ms 38 ms P6-0.AUVCR2.Aubervilliers.opentransit.net [193.251.132.74]
14 38 ms 48 ms 38 ms 163 ms 39 ms 40 ms 39 ms 38 ms P13-0.AUVCR1.Aubervilliers.opentransit.net [193.251.243.217]
15 39 ms 39 ms 38 ms 38 ms 39 ms 38 ms * 38 ms P6-0.BAGCR1.Bagnolet.opentransit.net [193.251.241.93]
16 44 ms 43 ms 44 ms 43 ms 43 ms 43 ms 44 ms 44 ms WanadooPortails1.GW.opentransit.net [193.251.251.58]
17 38 ms 40 ms 40 ms 40 ms 44 ms 39 ms 39 ms 39 ms [193.252.122.10]
18 40 ms 40 ms 39 ms 40 ms 44 ms 41 ms 41 ms 47 ms [193.252.123.177]

Ping statistics for 193.252.123.177
Packets: Sent = 8, Received = 8, Lost = 0 (0,0%)
Round Trip Times: Minimum = 39ms, Maximum = 47ms, Average = 41ms

 

[NeonBlue]

having played both Alb and Mid on pryd...and done TOA on both realms, i can safely say that there was NO delays on Alb

but when i swapped to Mid...i noticed the difference straight away...delays up to 10secs on Styles/Casting spells,

This is nothing to do with Isp's or specs of ppls machines, this is crystal clear to me that its server side and specificly Mid TOA zone.

The delays you get whilst in TOA on mid...suggest to me that either the zone is setup wrong (if thats possible) or the hardware in charge of running that zone is having problems accessing & processing the information so therefore causes the delays.

There was period where the delays seem to have disappeared and everything ran fine and TOA was playable again...but if they are back now ...just adds further evidence in my view that this is actually a server side problem which only effects Mid's TOA zone....as neither Alb or Hib have any trouble and ppl who play Excal have already stated it isnt effected there either

 

[Tiskani]

having played both Alb and Mid on pryd...and done TOA on both realms, i can safely say that there was NO delays on Alb

but when i swapped to Mid...i noticed the difference straight away...delays up to 10secs on Styles/Casting spells,

This is nothing to do with Isp's or specs of ppls machines, this is crystal clear to me that its server side and specificly Mid TOA zone.

Nuff said?

 

[Rayko]

I'm not a specialist, but after reading all this it looks pretty clear to me...
I also have these problems by the way.

 

[Mikal]

everyone I know on prydwen experiences this problem when playing in toa. However up to now I have never reported the problem via rightnow, thinking that other people would do it, and I'm sure alot of people were thinking the same. Seeing as we've actually caught the attention of GoA now, I suggest we supply them with as much info as possible. Sort of a partition.

I suggest that everyone downloads pingplotter ( http://www.pingplotter.com/downloads/pngplt_2.exe ) type in prydwen's IP (193.252.123.177) and let it run for 10 minutes, then save the info to a file (file -> save sample set)
aswell as running the directX test (start -> run -> dxdiag) and save that info aswell (click the "save all information" button).
Then send a request via rightnow that they solve the problem with lag in ToA zones and attach the two files from your tests

here's what I've just sent

category: techinical -> in game problems
subject: lag in ToA zones
body:
as a response to this thread on freddy's house
https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?t=23077&page=1&pp=15
concerning the lag players on midgard prydwen experiences when playing in the trials of atlantis zones, I have run a test on my connection aswell as one on my PC, and will supply you with the results hoping it can help you solve the problem

Attached Documents:
1 DxDiag.txt
2 193.252.123.177.pp2

hopefully if enough people do this, Goa will take us seriously and if everyone adds the test results to their reports combine with what people have said here, there shouldn't really be any excuses left for Goa not to do something about it

 

[Jeriraa]

The TOA-lag problem is defenitly server side.

A high packetloss/ping for more than 10-15 seconds causes DAoC to go out of synch and disconnect most of the times. The connection simply times out as there seems to be no resynch procedure implemented.

The TOA-lag however is different. The connection is steady. The performance indicators all green. My fps are well over 50. Yet I can have up to 20 seconds delay till the server responds to my actions.

The weakest form is a small delay in casting/styling (1-2 seconds). At that point there is no lag to chat channels.
Next stage is like 5 seconds delay to casting/styling and noticable delay in chat aswell. The game is still playable but not really enjoying at that point.
On the final stage we have a delay of 10 seconds upward on everything. It becomes impossible to drive a group because the group leader is already out of stick range when the group members are notified that he started moving. Its also impossible to heal. With a 15 sec delay to server feedback it takes a healer 30 seconds to from when the target took damage till the heal goes off.
With TOA lag even my hunters avatar has problems following me. Unlike the pet warping under connection lag where the pet runs ahead of you to jump back to your position TOA lag causes my pet to lag behind and then warp to my position.

Finaly: GOA _has_ a temporary solution to this problem. After enough people complain to RightNow the problem vanishes for a while and TOA becomes playable even at peak times. But every time the delay slowly comes back over a few weeks time.

Requiel, I beg you: Dont post stuff like you posted in this thread. It undermines your credibility. If you want to comment on the TOA-delay then please a) play TOA on Mid Prywden for a few days (when the problem actually occures - I am sure the E&E's can inform you) and b) talk to the techies because they have a solution for the problem (If they can fix it on their side then the problem cant be on our side, right?).

 

[SkarIronfist]

Requiel,

There was a very important rule one of lecturers at University told me about when teaching a class of people. This was about 15 years ago, but still holds true. This is not at you, this is at GOA specifically.

"The are always going to be people in the class who know more about the subject then you do".

We may have a quite a few uninformed idiots on the forums. But there are going to be network techies from various companies playing this game, just as we are going database programmers, graphics programmers etc.

Given that we are playing a computer game, then you are going to have a higher number of techies, then you would normally have ...

So when a reasonable number of people start posting here about the same technical probelm (Of which I am also experiencing in the TOA - 5 secs last night 06/07/04), then you can take it as being a subset to the real number of people.

The problem I have with us reporting on Rightnow, is that different people have different thesholds before they hit right now to complain <Trys to stay calm about Rightnow> ...

 

[SkarIronfist]

Since I am feeling generous, any chance of going over to sun kit/os (I know its a expensive), but at least it would give us 1 virtual world.

http://developers.sun.com/techtopics/gametech/reference/docs/simserverwp052604.pdf

There are some very good points in there about clustering servers and lack of true load balancing ie RR goes on, then one server has to handle all the work for the zone in which all the people are in, even though you may have 5 other servers in the cluster doing bugger all since they don't have anyone connected to them.

Read the chunk on "Inefficient Use Of Processors" and you will recognise the model DAOC uses.

 

[Stinko]

Since I am feeling generous, any chance of going over to sun kit/os (I know its a expensive), but at least it would give us 1 virtual world.

http://developers.sun.com/techtopics/gametech/reference/docs/simserverwp052604.pdf

There are some very good points in there about clustering servers and lack of true load balancing ie RR goes on, then one server has to handle all the work for the zone in which all the people are in, even though you may have 5 other servers in the cluster doing bugger all since they don't have anyone connected to them.

Read the chunk on "Inefficient Use Of Processors" and you will recognise the model DAOC uses.

Very interresting read imo!

 

[Keriwin]

Requiel... coming from someone who plays(ed) both hib/pryd AND mid/pry there is a BIG difference in lag, ZERO lag on hib/pryd unless there is at least 100 animist shrooms in the area on raids yet i get 10-15 second lag on mid/pry when there was 8-9 people in /who stygia and /who glades.

it does need to be looked at and sorted out by 'techies', just as i stated on the internal forums but no-one replied so im guessing it was ignored

 

[Sheph]

Hola!

I have some input in this matter!

My experience is that high end spec PC solve many of the issues with lag. Before i used a Shuttle based PC - 2.6GHz - 1Gb - Nvidia 5900 128Mb. This machine suffered from lag... both in DL and in big battles.

Since i can try any spec due to my work i decided to build the same machine my good friend Tusk uses. 3.0GHz - 2Gb dual DDR - 9800XT 256mb. This machine has no lag at all at 1600x1200 full TOA effects. If i change to non dual ram i see a LOT of performance drop. If i change to a 128Mb GFX card i also see a LOT of performance drop. Actually i can run 2xDaoc 1600x1200 full effects on this computer without lag.

Mebbe blame GOA for a game that need a high spec machine

 

[Angara]

Yeah, like Sheph states...there is a huge difference between lag or FPS dropping.

If you run cacti or MRTG on a server, check how many Kb/sec daoc actually needs, its like 4Kb/sec average. Anyone with a decent ISDN/Cable/xDSL connection will hardly suffer from lag. Its mostly client-side problems due to old or incapable hardware to run TOA.

Check your hardware, run some benchmarks and compare it with someone who has the same system as Sheph and notice the difference in perfomance.

Its not lag, its never been lag...its always a problem with FPS dropping
Get a decent PC and it will all be fine.

 

[Venom]

Gotta say, you guys are off the mark here, big style.

I have an Identical system to the one stated above, never have FPS issues except for huge RvR fights and still suffer immense lag in ToA, it sure as hell isnt my system as almost everyone else in this post has stated already.

How about the people that switch realms / servers and say that Mid/Pry lag is far worse than anywhere else, I suppose that they go and play on different spec machines each time they change do they?

Not intending to flame but comments like get a decent system really just dont wash or help to resolve the serious underlying problem.

If you play on Mid/Pry regularly and have experienced the pain first hand then you know where everybody in this post is coming from, if you dont and play in another realm / server then it has already been said that the problems are no where near as bad so dont come and make generalisations about fixes that have already been disproven.

 

[Aremeriel]

Its not lag, its never been lag...its always a problem with FPS dropping
Get a decent PC and it will all be fine.

Well.. If you're saying that I'll have to change my 1 year old comp:
AMD Athlon 2600+
1 GB DDR RAM
GForce 4800 (256 MB Ram)
Can't remember rest of the spec at the moment.. But i'f you're saying I'll have to change that into a newer comp to play DAoC, then sorry, I can't afford that.. Think GOA will lose a lot of Mid/Pryd players (since it seems to be not just a lot worse, but only happening here) if that's the case...

 

[Venom]

Well.. If you're saying that I'll have to change my 1 year old comp:
AMD Athlon 2600+
1 GB DDR RAM
GForce 4800 (256 MB Ram)
Can't remember rest of the spec at the moment.. But i'f you're saying I'll have to change that into a newer comp to play DAoC, then sorry, I can't afford that.. Think GOA will lose a lot of Mid/Pryd players (since it seems to be not just a lot worse, but only happening here) if that's the case...

Don't listen to them

 

[xxManiacxx]

Yeah, like Sheph states...there is a huge difference between lag or FPS dropping.

If you run cacti or MRTG on a server, check how many Kb/sec daoc actually needs, its like 4Kb/sec average. Anyone with a decent ISDN/Cable/xDSL connection will hardly suffer from lag. Its mostly client-side problems due to old or incapable hardware to run TOA.

Check your hardware, run some benchmarks and compare it with someone who has the same system as Sheph and notice the difference in perfomance.

Its not lag, its never been lag...its always a problem with FPS dropping
Get a decent PC and it will all be fine.

So u saying that my AMD64 3200+ with 2gb DDR S-ata HDD, Radeon 9700PRO isn´t enough? Lol I can play every single fps game on the market in 1600*1200 resolution without any problems. And if it were comp specc that was the problem the problem should be on ToA zones on excal also right?

Read the entire thread before posting something stupid like that.

 

[Khefru]

I play regularly with lvl 50's on both hib/Excal and Mid/Pryd. The lag on excal TOA can be bad at times, but is nothing in comparison to the permanent lag/delay on Pryd. It is not machine based, that I am sure of.

 

[Fafnir]

Why dont my brother have lag on Lancelot? That server is across the big pond, no lag in TOA. I've played on prydwen from his comp when i was housesitting, and had lag on mid/pryd, and when i played on his account there was no lag. Even when i did the samething in same zone. Just different server, and different continent.

 

[Sulphur]

Someone make movies in fraps of Excal and Prydwen ToA zones then post to Rightnow?

 

[Angara]

lol, relax all

 

[Angara]

Read the entire thread before posting something stupid like that.

Stay on topic, no need to call my answer stupid ok?

 

[Cmos]

For those statements about getting a better pc, read the back of your TOA packet :
Minimum system requirements
PentiumIII 1.4GHz or AMD equivalent
384 MB Ram
compatible 3D acceleration card with 32 MB video Ram (64MB recommended)

if the truth is thats not enough we can all drag Mythic to court.

Guess most of us have high end pc today, i myself are way obove those minimum requirements, can run 2 accounts on my pc in classic and SI lagfree, but going TOA with just 1 account is no fun at all anymore, totally laggy

In the beginning TOA was great up untill the point where the first ml4 took place. the 100+ mids didnt take out the 3 camps before taking Fortress of storms out. Was no fun playing TOA that night or the time after.

GOA needs to stop blaming client pc´s, networks etc, use the precius time on the server instead, and stop wasting ours with bull like that.

 

[Sheph]

So u saying that my AMD64 3200+ with 2gb DDR S-ata HDD, Radeon 9700PRO isn´t enough? Lol I can play every single fps game on the market in 1600*1200 resolution without any problems. And if it were comp specc that was the problem the problem should be on ToA zones on excal also right?

Read the entire thread before posting something stupid like that.

I dunno how the AMD64 works with these kind of games. I use a P4 to be sure no probs will occur. Do u run Dual DDR ? And no 9700PRO is not enuff.