To: Alpha

[old.Nol]

Originally posted by Tigerius
That cross realm template is in this instance defined by me, what I call basics of a good group. An ideal group yes, but no sorry I'm not interested in "don't rate Hibernia by it's strengths", on the opposite I am interested in how much effort there is to raising an ideal Alb group compared to an ideal Hib group, don't distort that point.

You say that you won't find those 3 classes in a single group very often, from a Alb point of view I'm not sure I find that but you know better here. However if you then take the basic assumption that it's hard to find 3 specific classes and then double that number and you really just how hard it is for us.

Double amount of heals? Not true, your group has 4 healing classes mine has 3. I do have a instaheal advantage but I wouldn't assume both Clerics are full support, nor the Friar. By the same token I'm not assuming your Bard or Warden are very high rej specced.



No that's like lying. All of these classes perform their role far superior to a Minstrel, what does a Minstrel have in common with a Druid BTW? I'm a bit slow here so excuse me. In the above group examples, the Hib classes generally perform the role BETTER. There is the issue of max simultaneous capacity sure and what happens once one of the targets gets killed or taken out of combat, I'm not saying all eggs in one basket doesn't come with it's disadvantages but then again there is nothing stopping you from filling out the party with dual instances.

As I said, my group DOES get other than the listed things, they're not all gimped classes capable of only 1 thing, you missed the point though and it is that to get the basic requirement we are FORCED to pick this large number of specific classes, whatever else they add is a bonus and nice but not always what you think is worth an entire group slot. By having your forced choices MUCH fewer you can choose which additional abilities you add or which abilities you want to get double of.

Minstrel stun is instant, it eats power, it has a timer, has 750 range and it's due to being on the worst resist table utterly shitty in duration. From a groups point of view this spell has 2 uses, stopping a Bard from casting a moment before our tanks pounce and granting enemies free stun immunity. It can NOT function as the mez breaking or protecting Stun I see as necessary.

~ Distort the point? Do you honestly believe that hib classes have a single speccline that they can max for every buff, resist and heal in the game? Use your logic, those four classes may be able to do some of the stuff you mentioned, but not all from the same chars.

Bards mezzes, including insta AOE, are worth nothing because they're also on the body resist table, as is the minstrels stun, the most common resist table in the game? That is not a good reason to just add a class, because you are not happy with the resist table.

Consider that a bard has 5 lines to choose it's spec from, the standard spec would give a bard a 145 hp single focus heal, castable in 3.2 seconds, honestly not worth standng still for. To increase the the heal, as some bards do, one would have loose either final AOE or speed 5, in most cases that does not happen.

The capable healer is the druid, who is either gimping heals, resists, buffs or root. You assume that a druid is going to max all his spec lines to compete with the cleric, the friar which is a physical impossibility to max it's spec across all spec lines, somewhere a spec line will be gimped. Yet you add an entire class against this spec line.

Same goes for the warden, for the output of max BT and max resist, they will gimp their healing, and can hardly be considered a backup healing class.

Crikey, just because it says a class has spell available in their spec table, it doesn't automatically mean that every class is armed to the teeth with them. No matter how you twist the perspective, there is no way you can justify that class comparision.

 

[Tigerius]

Lmao Nol, again you are grasping at straws. Point me to a specific example where I suggested that one class would have something entirely impossible to spec for.

Bards: I'm assuming a normal support Bard template with high music, nurture, low melee, regrowth. You may define the heals as not worth standing still for, I still claim that the class has backup healing ability and if regrowth is fueled by some items the baseline heals should be quite viable. They have baseline heals, henceforth it has the ability to heal somewhat, period.

Druid: I never suggested the Bard would spec high Nature, I didn't say instaroot anywhere. I was planning on a full support with high nurture and regrowth.

Warden: I've personally never seen the great need in speccing this class in melee, I can see why individuals do it to make it more entertaining but there is nothing wrong or impossible about a Regrowth/Nurture template, or for that matter just 1x in Regrowth for baseline heal variance.

I'm sorry you think so low of me Nol that I don't know which spells go in which lines and what the common specs are, should I be mistaken do point it out but I doubt it, I think you are just taking for granted that I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm sorry that that is so.

As for Bard mezz being Body, this is very negative I agree and greatly reduces the use of the instamezz but on the castable mez the duration will be long enough anyway that a 50% resist will still make it very benefitial. This doesn't hold true for a 6sec Stun.

 

[Adri]

take out all insta ccs
or give insta mezz (to replace quickcast) to sorc
then rvr between the realms might be slightly fairer

 

[old.Nol]

I wrote a whole long counter argument, but at the end of it I just though stuff it, it is the same endless loop that happens on these boards all the time.

If you are so convinced your realm, it's classes and RA's suck, then who am I to argue with you. As long as you paint hibbies up to be an all powerfull uber realm, you will never win battles. It's not my job to solve this, it is up to you and your leaders, one thing is for certain though, bitching about it on these forums is doing nothing for it.

We stand at Ligen, form groups and we hope to get a bard in so the run is not so long. We do not stand there swapping classes between groups trying to optimise for resists, pbt's and buffs, it is not that strategic. Most of the time we stand there begging for anyone to come and play, because people can't be bothered being steamrolled by numbers. 90% of just don't give a damn about the "optimised" group, we would much rather group with friends.

You are welcome to continue the debate, I have had my say, have fun throwing straws.

 

[Novamir]

most albs are utterly skill-less

does that help?

 

[Tigerius]

Sorry to say this for the third time Nol, but you are again saying things I did not write. I don't think everything in Albion sucks, I think we have cooler classes and a much better realm in terms of zones and mobs. Alot of things I like here otherwise I wouldn't be very inclined to stay. It would never occur to me to come posting general whines about how "Albion" sucks, too general to be true. The only thing I have posted regarding here is first of all SoS vs GP and later as Eleasias brought it up exactly how hard it is for an Alb group to get all the "necessary" parts.

Overall I'm slightly bothered by the notion that Novamir and Eleasias so clearly state here, that Hibs both across the board and in terms of individuals have more skill. There is really no logic to support such a statement, there are however ingame factors that you Hibs keep on denying.

I try every day to solve the problems best I can, most importantly to have fun but it's more fun winning than loosing, I can enjoy facing less than ideal odds in a FG vs FG encounter and have a challenge to work towards. I can however not enjoy the continual beating over the chest over results of fights not even beginning to be fair. You wouldn't if Albs came posting here about their great victories zerging.

There are skilled Albs, there are skilled Hibs, there are clueless Albs and there are clueless Hibs. Get a grip, smell the coffee, there are good reasons why the results look as the currently do all across the world.

 

[Spamb0t]

Originally posted by old.Nol
We stand at Ligen, form groups and we hope to get a bard in so the run is not so long. We do not stand there swapping classes between groups trying to optimise for resists, pbt's and buffs, it is not that strategic. Most of the time we stand there begging for anyone to come and play, because people can't be bothered being steamrolled by numbers. 90% of just don't give a damn about the "optimised" group, we would much rather group with friends.

90% of the time? xDDD
i ALWAYS hear 'group in need for tank/caster/healer' when standing at druim ligen..

i also play on mid/pryd.. and i have actually NEVER EVER heard ANYTHING like that there.. NEVER have i heard 'group in need for blabla'

so hibs(excal) does have ALOT more optimised groups then mids(prydwen).. ofcourse this can change from server to server.. but thats what its like where i play

(this is not a im a stalker class and cant get grouped whine btw )

 

[Tranquil-]

This thread should be sticky, so energy won't be wasted on going through an entire arguement again later...

Disclaimer: IMO. Heh.

 

[old.Odysseus]

We owned mids and hibs right and left yesterday in emain, hence we are more skilled than you.
No, it has nothing to do with numbers.

Hows that for an arguments? Makes about as much sense as when hibs claim that they have 'uber l33t skillz'.

 

[old.Filip]

this was a giant post about balance... i deltet it no use i think..

rather make it simple..

all realms got allmost the same abilities (trying to keep my mouth shut about mid Instant/castable AE stun)

but the few the class's the easyer it should be to make groups..
some times albs have to make a 2 fg's zerg to share a sorc .. or just to get rezzed (was in a group with no healers/rezzers for 3-4 hours last nigth)

but have a look at the top 30 rp holder list
taken from duskwave (look below)

there is
6 Albs. (2 stealthers)
14 Mids. (3 stealthers)
10 hibs (1 stealther)

i bet we can never agree with this... because there is so many factors in this..

but 1 thing i can tell is that i have been killed a lot by the mid instant's mess/stuns etc .. and many times ppl dont bitch about beening owned or anything.. just a ya ya /release.. those mids who consider them selfs very good players should try play PvP without the healers
Hibs a lot more fun to figth

Rank Name Realm Realm Points Last week Level Guild Class Race
1 Eleasias Wayfarer Hibernia 3,960,565 249,825 50 Llaw Arian Ranger Celt
2 Alpha Male Albion 3,712,334 288,574 50 Herfølge Boldklub Minstrel Highlander
3 Outlaw ? Albion 2,787,688 232,661 50 Guardians of Light Theurgist Avalonian
4 Horsma Hordesdottir Midgard 2,663,247 212,878 50 Cradle Skald Norseman
5 Wuren Gade Hibernia 2,268,386 276,229 50 Llaw Arian Hero Firbolg
6 Kallistor Midgard 2,259,704 221,987 50 Nolby Pride Runemaster Kobold
7 Eiaals TheMedic Midgard 2,176,658 180,802 50 Nolby Pride Healer Dwarf
8 Venomski Elfeater Midgard 2,144,876 1,567 50 Nolby Pride Runemaster Kobold
9 Miss Hibernia 2,135,491 243,510 50 Llaw Arian Bard Celt
10 Madeleine Kalya Midgard 2,077,814 164,694 50 Nolby Pride Skald Norseman
11 Qte Eth Hibernia 2,000,272 98,903 50 Terra Dominus Mentalist Lurikeen
12 Eeny Slan Midgard 1,963,064 58,412 50 Nolby Pride Shadowblade Kobold
13 Fest Hibernia 1,945,672 133,107 50 Llaw Arian Champion Lurikeen
14 Sub Midgard 1,921,999 1,704 50 Nolby Pride Berserker Norseman
15 Laralyn Aaldaemon Hibernia 1,897,465 417,818 50 Llaw Arian Hero Celt
16 Kazil BlueShoes Midgard 1,879,891 217,933 50 Nolby Pride Runemaster Dwarf
17 Cuthervaen Hibernia 1,834,566 7,723 50 Celtic Fist Champion Celt
18 Crey Hibernia 1,823,629 196,296 50 Llaw Arian Eldritch Elf
19 Xanatea Slan Midgard 1,823,496 40,266 50 Nolby Pride Healer Norseman
20 Jawz FlammenHerra Midgard 1,809,847 159,341 50 Nolby Pride Warrior Norseman
21 Korv ZergMeOrDIEWussInfilts Midgard 1,743,470 110,564 50 Prophets Shadowblade Norseman
22 Zoyster ? Albion 1,712,236 146,729 50 Guardians of Light Wizard Avalonian
23 Bluwi Somberlain Midgard 1,671,780 233 50 Nolby Pride Runemaster Kobold
24 Creep Midgard 1,639,367 37,898 50 Nolby Pride Shadowblade Kobold
25 Infernos TerribleFire Hibernia 1,622,277 141,879 50 Llaw Arian Druid Firbolg
26 Eos Somberlain Midgard 1,581,925 647 50 Nolby Pride Skald Norseman
27 Elfslayer TheFeared Albion 1,535,263 145,832 50 Crusaders of Albion Cabalist Avalonian
28 Quicksilver Deliverance Albion 1,525,887 212,041 50 First Cohort Friar Briton
29 Tyka SavethedramaforyourMama Hibernia 1,520,858 202,615 50 Vengeance Eldritch Elf
30 Mallus Darkblade Albion 1,516,424 0 50 First Cohort Infiltrator Saracen

 

[Aussie-]

hahaahah waiting 30 min to optimise the group before coming to Emain, rejecting other ppl to join and finally get zerged by albs

Oh well, go brag a bit more how uber hibgroups are 1vs1
seems like fun .. the afk'ing %D
have a nice RvR time !

 

[old.Nol]

it's really sad when your 2 cents worth is not worth 2 cents, hey aussie?

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by Novamir
landshark ur rr4? which is like, 1 week in emain? k

Depends if you have a life outside daoc or not. Some of us have to work to put food on the table and keep the net connection running.

 

[lofff]

Albs are crap players cos they specced on whine skills.


Albs dont see SoS>gp cos they only hit sos to run from amg to atk when their zerg gets eventually slagged. Guess albs with gp will only use it as a self-secondary purge (as most clerics do with instaheals, self-ips they think)

Use SoS on a offensive way, i****s.



ps: BoF = similar history...

ps2: was talking bout the average alb there are sum decent players out there

 

[old.Odysseus]

BoF is great, no doubt about that,

but SoS > GP???

someone plz tell me what is so fucking great about being able to attack when rooted (and that nearly never happens as hib+mid have other forms of insta-cc)

and moving while mezzed? weee great...

BoF+SoS uber ... only because BoF is uber. adding SoS simply dont do much imho.

I see 2 uses:
a) get away from strong enemy
b) chase fleeing enemy
in both cases the outcome of the battle has already been decided.

I may be stupid but I really cannot seem to comprehend what makes SoS such a great offensive tool. Some minstrels enlighten me?

 

[MiZzZerY]

I mean LoC and HoM + BoK then u add some MoC then u r ubah!!!!1

 

[MiZzZerY]

sorry, kinda bored @ wr0k

 

[bf_kate]

hehe lofff, alyssa and I owned you yesterday and we didn't even use bof!!!
(I think you enjoyed having two girls hitting on you a bit much tho)
:whip:

Anyhow, it's ok about GP. We have found an answer. No CC at all! 3 clerics with bof, 2 minst with sos, 1 tank with very high det, 1 paladin with FH, and a friar or other tank.

Casters go home

 

[lofff]

1- u cant b stunned.
2- ur tanks cant b stopped. (our casters insta die)
3- no1 in ur grp can b melee ganked. (we tanks enjoy the chase-that-bullet-there game)
4- u can move a bit and cast freely. (mezzers, casters, healers every1)


We hibs do that with endsong, sprint the whole fight gave us an huge tactical advantage. SoS, 204% instead of sucky sprint advantage, for 30 secs, 30 sacs of pure gankage.

 

[lofff]

Originally posted by bf_kate
hehe lofff, alyssa and I owned you yesterday and we didn't even use bof!!!
(I think you enjoyed having two girls hitting on you a bit much tho)
:whip:

Anyhow, it's ok about GP. We have found an answer. No CC at all! 3 clerics with bof, 2 minst with sos, 1 tank with very high det, 1 paladin with FH, and a friar or other tank.

Casters go home

u are evil was gonna make a ram for u when u started to gank me (hitting me for 50-100 and i was sitting ^^) Anyway i shoulnt solo emain nemore



ps: got my solo keel in emain before and KEELED THE TORCAN TOO! so i made my share

 

[bf_kate]

I don't think that hibbies are understanding that if you are mezzed/stunned before/during SOS then you CANNOT go into attack mode or cast (can insta tho - probably a bug). It's good for moving either away from your attacker or to your target. I'm not saying it's not great, I am just saying it's not offensive.

 

[old.Odysseus]

1- u cant b stunned.
2- ur tanks cant b stopped. (our casters insta die)
3- no1 in ur grp can b melee ganked. (we tanks enjoy the chase-that-bullet-there game)
4- u can move a bit and cast freely. (mezzers, casters, healers every1)

1) Wrong, you can move while stunned, not attack
2) Wrong, you can move while mezzed/stunned, not attack
3) 50% absorption is nice, but not something SoS augments
4) Wrong even under SoS you still will not be able to cast when mezzed / stunned / etc.

Speed of Sound: (Directly from Camelot Herald)
Your group moves at twice normal speed for 30 seconds. This ability will not break in combat. This ability also bypasses the movement penalties from mesmerize, root/snare, and stun, although other effects such as inability to attack will remain.

 

[lofff]

u dont get the point... alb tank goes for caster in my grp, we stun him and got to gank him before stun is gone so he cant do anything nor use ip etc etc, SoS allows the tank to run in circles for 9 sec till he can gank again. And thats f we are able to stun that bullet running towards our caster before the caster dies... (usually we cant)

 

[lofff]

and about the 3rd point... when sum1 is in melee but SoS is on only thing he need to do to avoid been ganked is move... no need BoF. ur not that silly comon...

 

[lofff]

and btw, u assume everybody in ur grp will b mezzed/stunned, usually most ppl will b just engaged in melee ... and then point 4) works... u really need to think things a bit tho

btw u still have selfpurge dont u? cos grouppurge on a 30min timer will partially remove mezzes OR roots OR stun from the grp once EACH 30 mins, repeat: PARTIALLY, not that GP means root/mezz/stun invulnerabilty for the grp next round.

 

[old.Odysseus]

a) EDIT HAS BEEN INVENTED FFS!!! - use it

b) /stick has been invented, so tanks ganking the tank that can now move cuz he is under influence can hardly lose his attackers (or hibs dont have the /stick RA? )

c) as for stunning a moving target : F8 was invented, no need to click him anymore.

d) when fighting groups with insta-mezz you can safely assume that 50%+ of your group will be mezzed from the outset of most fights or soon after.

Still, thx for the explanation, nice to hear how hibs see it.
I do not view SoS as utter crap, far from, but SoS > GP as you so bluntly stated is a bit exaggerated.

Edit:
one question: can you use IP while under SoS and stunned?

 

[Khalen]

There was once a player who said it was all about tactics not zerging... What I've found out is that a lot of people don't think really what they do or what is best to do.

People who just blame others at what is lame are a bit sad to be honest, because they think their success depends on what others do instead of what they can do themselves...

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by lofff
We hibs do that with endsong, sprint the whole fight gave us an huge tactical advantage. SoS, 204% instead of sucky sprint advantage, for 30 secs, 30 sacs of pure gankage.

SoS is 200% not 204%

 

[lofff]

Originally posted by old.Odysseus
a) EDIT HAS BEEN INVENTED FFS!!! - use it

b) /stick has been invented, so tanks ganking the tank that can now move cuz he is under influence can hardly lose his attackers (or hibs dont have the /stick RA? )

c) as for stunning a moving target : F8 was invented, no need to click him anymore.

d) when fighting groups with insta-mezz you can safely assume that 50%+ of your group will be mezzed from the outset of most fights or soon after.

Still, thx for the explanation, nice to hear how hibs see it.
I do not view SoS as utter crap, far from, but SoS > GP as you so bluntly stated is a bit exaggerated.

Edit:
one question: can you use IP while under SoS and stunned?

a) sorry

b) u cant keep stuck to a target that moves at 204% speed mb? its not just that stick will drop in 1.5 secs its just that u would b silly ...

c) u ever played a melee char? f that target is moving at 204% speed: a) cant use positional stuns b) u will get "asfsd target not in view" or target too far away with slam (normally) ... (tanks dont shoot shields to stun moving targets tho... would b an idea for SI)

d) instamezz is on a 10 min timer, last 33 sec on 47music, determination and resists make 10-15 secs from this and invulnerability against 1min casteable mezzes. Anyway the other 50% in ur grp will b able to do what i said. (and the ones who still know whats selfpurge for)


its not just as hibs see SoS, as i said we use endsong-endless sprint for that and we dont get to move while mezzed or stunned that way... still owns, SoS is same but improved and btw i got a minstrel too remember?

 

[lofff]

Originally posted by Danyan

SoS is 200% not 204%