To: Alpha

[old.Nol]

There are so many factors dictating the outcome of rvr groups yet people persist on focussing on 1 or 2 areas.

Intelligent play > All

This debate has been mauled to death and we will never agree.

 

[old.LandShark]

Originally posted by Eleasias
EVERY tank should have ~50% heat as it's the main damage type of hib casters

Except we have even less friars than we do sorcs...

 

[old.krane]

Dont worry elesias..we ll find a way to bring your sorry ass down...

Just keep insulting and talking total crap about the usefulness of SOS ( the chicken RA)..

Until than, do something with your char, cause it is only worth 78 rps in a group of 8..

 

[old.Odysseus]

This ability will not break in combat. This ability also bypasses the movement penalties from mesmerize, root/snare, and stun, although other effects such as inability to attack will remain.

As far as I can see, mezz and stun is an 'inability to attack'. This effectively means that SoS allows you to attack while rooted.

Hibs main form of CC is (insta)mez.
Mids use (insta) stun and mez.

Root? Albs have tons of that.

SoS will prevent the group ure attacking from doing CC-run maneuvers. OK, thats one good offensive ability

 

[old.Nol]

Oh poor Hibernia, they've only got 6 times more bards than we have sorcs.

Sorc's reroll in mid because alb tanks have no idea about gaurding and shield stunning to protect them.

View "the story of the intelligent tank" for insight.

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by Eleasias
yeah, the scenario would be something like that if you actually had so crappy players ... standing /stuck to each other when jumping an enemy group isnt very smart you know? Bard cant mez the whole group if they are spread apart, which they should be, tanks should be beating the bard/hib casters (before you start whining about baseline stun, EVERY tank should have ~50% heat as it's the main damage type of hib casters) with one shield tank near casters slamming all inc hib tanks, and then casters proceed to nuke them to bits ... and why waste quickcast if you get the jump on them anyway? Learn to play so you start being a challenge in 1fg, k?

"Had so crappy players"? That scenario doesn't show bad skills or good skills. It shows what Albion groups have available for fg vs fg skirmish. The scenario described by Dai(Tigerius) is how it is because of the ingame limits/timers/spells etc. made by Mythic. The amount of "skill" you have doesn't let you ignore timers and game limiting mechanics, atleast not in Alb.

 

[old.Nol]

Hibs main form of CC is (insta)mez.

Our primary CC is castable 3.5 second mezz, we have an insta mezz option once every 10 minutes

 

[old.Odysseus]

Our primary CC is castable 3.5 second mezz, we have an insta mezz option once every 10 minutes

Ask yourself; how many fights do you get into in 10 minutes?

I have MCL 1, on a 5 minute timer, I have it available every single fight Im in, even in emain (and I use it in/after every single fight, either as a counter-pala-rez measure () or as a replenish power measure).

 

[Tigerius]

Originally posted by Eleasias
yeah, the scenario would be something like that if you actually had so crappy players ... standing /stuck to each other when jumping an enemy group isnt very smart you know? Bard cant mez the whole group if they are spread apart, which they should be, tanks should be beating the bard/hib casters (before you start whining about baseline stun, EVERY tank should have ~50% heat as it's the main damage type of hib casters) with one shield tank near casters slamming all inc hib tanks, and then casters proceed to nuke them to bits ... and why waste quickcast if you get the jump on them anyway? Learn to play so you start being a challenge in 1fg, k?

WTF has standing /stuck to do with anything? This scenario is quite universal not specific to whatever Ody/you are talking about. Yadda yadda... lets get to the point.

Tanks beating the Bard? Sure thing, except we ARE talking the initial 3½ secs of an encounter starting from 2000 range. They will reach the enemy group but they won't have time to interrupt the Bard.
Every Tank should have 50% heat? Sure, ideally I fully agree. Except this adds ANOTHER Class to the list of which Classes an alb FG must have to compete (Recap: Sorcerer, Theurgist, Cleric (2), +Friar). 6 Classes to get the most minimum of abilities to come out well in a 1on1 encounter... but having 6 classes only taken for abilities means we are getting dangerously low on defensive tanks, offensive tanks, offensive casters meaning this won't be an ideal group anyway. Wow, that really sucks that there is no way you can make an Alb ideal group and not even get the "must have" abilities.
Shield tank by the Casters? Sure why not, if we have any group slots left for one and if it doesn't get away of the party spreading out to avoid mez. Then since we have no room for an offensive caster it is unlikely that we will nuke the tank to bits in 9secs and if that fails then we got another 4000HP to chew through, oh and he might still have his single purge left but yep sounds good in theory there.
Why waste a quickcast? Well, if you didn't have 5 or so instaspells that you could turn and win with then perhaps we shouldn't. Since you however DO have Lulls, instamezzes and so forth it's not a good gamble to do otherwise. I can see what you mean about not wasting it sure, but the gamble of possibly being interrupted in such a very crucial moment isn't worth it, trust me that no sound tactic should be built on such a gamble.

Learn to play? That Hib talk for switch realm?

 

[Tranquil-]

Wow, that really sucks that there is no way you can make an Alb ideal group and not even get the "must have" abilities.

And by this you have the answer as to why Albs zerg. To fit all the classes we need.

Ofcourse, now that this has come up(once again I might add), all the Hibernian's who can't understand what we are whining about shuts up. Ironic? Aye. Strange Nay.

Originally posted by old.Nol

Intelligent play > All

Let me take the liberty of adding a small factor.

Mythic > Intelligent play > All

 

[old.Nol]

Bards have one aoe lull and one single target lull, that can only be cast every 9 seconds. Lull does nothing but interupt, it has no other value, you don't lose target like the spell suggests you should. We have a DD with a very close range, that is not effective to interupt, because it means that you close enough to get wasted by tanks.

~The list of classes is complete bullshit, that same list give you access to things we cannot do, so by your argument it becomes redundant.

Friars are uber, I have no idea why Albion does not have more friars, they are probably the most well balanced class in the game, add awesome styles and kungfu madness...is Hibernia being blamed for your lack of friars too now?

 

[Aussie-]

zzzzzzzzz nm %D

 

[old.Nol]

Ask yourself; how many fights do you get into in 10 minutes?

I have MCL 1, on a 5 minute timer, I have it available every single fight Im in, even in emain (and I use it in/after every single fight, either as a counter-pala-rez measure () or as a replenish power measure).

I have no insta aoe, and I can have about 3 contacts in 10 minutes. Besides, I never said that insta's are a good thing, but you can look forward to nerfage in the next patch.

A question, how did hibs beat mids before the insta aoe?

If you think SoS is crap, then you are kidding yourselves. For the same reasons as your minstrels not opting for SoS, some of our druids do not opt for a GP. There are not many druids in Hib as it is, more people roll bards or wardens as naturalists.

Constant whining about an RA that is on a 30 minute timer, given to a character found in 1 out of 5 groups is really pathetic. 80% of the time, there is no GP available to whatever hib group you are fighting, blaming your losses on GP is an excuse.

 

[old.Odysseus]

If you think SoS is crap, then you are kidding yourselves

I didnt, I posted some serious questions in the hope that someone could provide me with a constructive answer (thx for the thoughts eleasias).

I have no insta aoe, and I can have about 3 contacts in 10 minutes. Besides, I never said that insta's are a good thing, but you can look forward to nerfage in the next patch.

Keyword: CAN have. Normally you have around 1, max 2 encounters every 10 minutes - on average.

Hence: Insta Mezz is hibs main form of CC.

 

[old.Nol]

yeah, followed up by lazers.

 

[Tigerius]

Wow Nol you are really grasping at straws here.

Noone ever said SoS was crap, it's however laughable to think it as good as GP.

More than 1/5 groups have Druids, to restate your own comments "is Albion to be blamed for your lack of Druids?". It's still an uber-RA.

Lulls are uber, 2 interrupt instants on a ! 9 sec timer? Oh poor you that they only interrupt.

The list of classes isn't bullshit, it's a very real list of classes we need to get basic needs. I'm not saying those abilities are the ONLY thing the classes can do, they add more than that, but it doesn't change the point that to get all the requirements we are left with only minimal options of classes and specs, meaning the effort to get ahold of all the right parts is much larger. What Eleasias said about no Bard = no RvR is very true, only for us if we were picky this would apply to a handful of classes. Generally though we put fun first and the end result is gimped alb groups.

 

[Jiggs]

its a shame that 1fg v 1fg often just seems to come down to who has RAs active at the time.

like its a sod when hibs have group purge and i must imagine they get pissed if albs use SoS or BoF (god that rocks now)

 

[old.Nol]

Wow Nol you are really grasping at straws here.

Noone ever said SoS was crap, it's however laughable to think it as good as GP.

More than 1/5 groups have Druids, to restate your own comments "is Albion to be blamed for your lack of Druids?". It's still an uber-RA.

Lulls are uber, 2 interrupt instants on a ! 9 sec timer? Oh poor you that they only interrupt.

The list of classes isn't bullshit, it's a very real list of classes we need to get basic needs. I'm not saying those abilities are the ONLY thing the classes can do, they add more than that, but it doesn't change the point that to get all the requirements we are left with only minimal options of classes and specs, meaning the effort to get ahold of all the right parts is much larger. What Eleasias said about no Bard = no RvR is very true, only for us if we were picky this would apply to a handful of classes. Generally though we put fun first and the end result is gimped alb groups.

Clutching at straws is what someone is doing when they start blaming GP for their losses.

See the point is that I actually don't give a damn about the fact that we don't always have druids available Hibernia, I also don't use that as an excuse as to why we might have lost a fight or why we shouldn't go RVR. FYI, people don't eave DL without a bard, mostly because of the slow jog to eventually land up in emain and get around, without a bard in your group, you are going nowhere, and not even going nowhere fast, but rather, very, very slowly.

Lull is brilliant, a utility insta that aids bards hugely in RvR. A super exciting feature that helps bards kill? Um no...because lull can't be used in combat mode, it interupts, that's all it does, it does not interupt in endless succesion on countless enemies. Be sensible, how do you expect a bard to do all these things simultaneously? It is impossible, after the purge a bard is practically useless, as soon as we stop moving to cast anything, we are history.

So what's the list, lets compare? cleric, paladin, minstrel, theurg and ? vs bard, warden, caster?

 

[Tigerius]

Alb Group:
Sorcerer (Main CC)
Minstrel (Speed, Power, Backup CC)
Cleric (Resist buffs, buffs, heals)
Cleric (Stuns, buffs, backup heals)
Theurgist (10s PBT, dmg add)
Friar (Other resist buffs, buffs, backup heals)

Hib Group:
Bard (Main CC, Speed, Power, Buffs, End, backup heal)
Druid (Resist buffs, buffs, heals, GP)
Warden (6s PBT, other resist buffs, buffs, backup heal)
-any form of caster- Mentalist (Stun, Power, Backup CC)

Alb group total: CC, backup CC, Stun, Speed, Power, 6 Resist buffs, 3 buffers, 1 healer, 2 backup healers, 10s PBT, dmg add.

Hib group total: CC, backup CC, Stun, Speed, 2xPower, 6 Resist buffs, 3 buffers, 1 healer, 2 backup healers, 6sec PBT, End.

Looks pretty even across the board yeah? Only your group involves 2 players less, in theory 3 as the 3rd caster doesn't need to be specified. You also gain better PBT and exchange End song for our Dmg Add which overall has both benefits and disadvantages.

I'm not saying our 2 or 3 additional players are useless, of course they benefit with dmg and other things but they aren't able to be chosen specifically for their damage dealing or other qualities and most importantly getting 6 specific classes for 1 group is alot more effort than getting 3 specific 1 unspecific, ALOT more.

 

[old.Nol]

That support group template for hibbies is probably close to ideal a place to start in any group, but very seldom happens, 2/4 you will more then likely find in every hib group, extremely rare will you find 4/4 unless it is one of the groups that runs together everyday.

It's madness to assume that you need to build your groups based on a cross realm template defined by who exactly? Your group should be defined by the classes you are more then likely to run into.

It's like me saying that a bard, druid and a nightshade are equal to one minstrel.
(speed + stealth + chain) - the accumulative adds for those 3 are immense.

Just consider that group you have specced as comparison. 2 instances of BoF, double the amounts of heals, plus some if friar has a basic rejuv spec. 2 pbaoe mezzes, quickcast mezz, root, focussed mezz, stun, it a CC machine. I don't see what the smite cleric is for, a minstrel has stun(which is insta, compared to 2.5 second quickcast), can't be the damage add, because theurg has that. I am not even going to start on the damage output across the 2 comparisons.

That is never going to be a fair way to compare the reams, we were designed to be different and opperate different. Don't try and beat Hibernia by playing to it's strengths.

You now have end chant wrapped a can, with loads of HP, and a shield in front of it. That was the bards one unique differentiator, they have no given it to a class destined to last loads longer and in return they gave us insta AOE - I would much rather be able to carry a shield and chant songs thanks, specially with mezz nerf on it's way.

 

[old.LandShark]

Originally posted by Eleasias
You were whining about hibs being overpowered even pre-insta mez/root, sorc CC isnt *that* bad Everyone hates getting stunned but atleast I'm more "scared" of shield tanks than clerics/healers/minstrels/whatever stunning me. If you hate stun, get heat resists :>

The only hib CC I have ever whined about was the bard instamezz or the druid instaroot. Never said a word about the others....
As to the heat resist - haha, yeah.... pull the other one. 38% heat resist (30% with my shield out) and I can still rely on being well under 50% by the time stun wears out...

 

[Tigerius]

That cross realm template is in this instance defined by me, what I call basics of a good group. An ideal group yes, but no sorry I'm not interested in "don't rate Hibernia by it's strengths", on the opposite I am interested in how much effort there is to raising an ideal Alb group compared to an ideal Hib group, don't distort that point.

You say that you won't find those 3 classes in a single group very often, from a Alb point of view I'm not sure I find that but you know better here. However if you then take the basic assumption that it's hard to find 3 specific classes and then double that number and you really just how hard it is for us.

Double amount of heals? Not true, your group has 4 healing classes mine has 3. I do have a instaheal advantage but I wouldn't assume both Clerics are full support, nor the Friar. By the same token I'm not assuming your Bard or Warden are very high rej specced.

It's like me saying that a bard, druid and a nightshade are equal to one minstrel.

No that's like lying. All of these classes perform their role far superior to a Minstrel, what does a Minstrel have in common with a Druid BTW? I'm a bit slow here so excuse me. In the above group examples, the Hib classes generally perform the role BETTER. There is the issue of max simultaneous capacity sure and what happens once one of the targets gets killed or taken out of combat, I'm not saying all eggs in one basket doesn't come with it's disadvantages but then again there is nothing stopping you from filling out the party with dual instances.

As I said, my group DOES get other than the listed things, they're not all gimped classes capable of only 1 thing, you missed the point though and it is that to get the basic requirement we are FORCED to pick this large number of specific classes, whatever else they add is a bonus and nice but not always what you think is worth an entire group slot. By having your forced choices MUCH fewer you can choose which additional abilities you add or which abilities you want to get double of.

Minstrel stun is instant, it eats power, it has a timer, has 750 range and it's due to being on the worst resist table utterly shitty in duration. From a groups point of view this spell has 2 uses, stopping a Bard from casting a moment before our tanks pounce and granting enemies free stun immunity. It can NOT function as the mez breaking or protecting Stun I see as necessary.

 

[Novamir]

Tiger, change sig to Walking Whinebot

 

[old.LandShark]

Originally posted by old.Nol
I don't see what the smite cleric is for, a minstrel has stun(which is insta, compared to 2.5 second quickcast)

You don't seem to object to Dai's assumption that all wardens have 6sec PBT - in which case, they also all have the final body resist group buff....
Average hib group: over 40% body resist. Average alb group: unless you have a friar (admittedly if you DO have a friar you're largely guaranteed 16% heat resist buff), 26% max....

Novamir: change "u sux" to "I have no real argument, so i'll just insult you, k?"

 

[Novamir]

haha

gone over this so many times with the whiney albs which can't play well so they whine on forums about how crap they are. go talk to GoL or FC or sth to find out how to play.

landshark ur rr4? which is like, 1 week in emain? k

 

[Tigerius]

You don't go over anything Novamir, you have no points, you just spam and try to divert attention from any original points. Sad.

 

[Novamir]

neither do you, it's all been argued by you before, in most threads you post in or make. it gets irritating, which is why i'm irritated by it.

 

[old.LandShark]

Originally posted by Novamir
landshark ur rr4? which is like, 1 week in emain? k

Yeah.... right, so now we need to have R6 to even be worth talking to?
OK, well in that case Tigerius is 1 week in emain away from being R6, so maybe HE is more right than YOU...

Oh, and refer to my previous post... you know, the one about how you just try and insult people instead of making any kind of point??
not that "you haven't farmed for hours upon hours in zergville USA" is much of an insult...

 

[Tigerius]

Everything I've said has been said before, of that there is no question, I'm however just trying to refine the facts over and over until it remains so painfully clear even Hibs can't fail to understand parts of it.

If you have any similar facts that I blatantly fail to recognize do tell. All I see is however subjective opinions.

 

[Noche]

Somebody got owned

Sorry couldn´t resist that

Just saw today how 2 fg of NP wiping out unknown number of albs... omg what a mess hehehe