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MYstIC G

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Scouse said:
It's another of the obvious ones - I don't find the argument persuasive.

If you're a diplomat then being threatened with getting locked up is part of the game tbh. See above about full force of the diplomatic service being brought to bear if that's the case.


It'd have to be a spectacular reason to make someone immune from kiddy fiddling for me tbh.
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You're applying morals to the wrong professions
 
SilverHood

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Scouse said:
It's another of the obvious ones - I don't find the argument persuasive.

If you're a diplomat then being threatened with getting locked up is part of the game tbh. See above about full force of the diplomatic service being brought to bear if that's the case.


It'd have to be a spectacular reason to make someone immune from kiddy fiddling for me tbh.
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If diplomats could be threatened, who would do that job? You'd have to be nuts to take it. Everyone would end up like Chrostpher Stephens one way or the other. One of the reasons for diplomatic immunity was to ensure access to government representatives in case of a conflict, with always open lines of communication. I think the world would be a much worse place without it. As for all the CIA spooks and other security personnel having diplomatic imunity, by all means revoke it, or, make it like the IMF imunity, so that it grants limited immunity, for work related tasks. Kiddy fiddling or slapping store assistants is not part of the job description.

Immunity doesn't necessarily mean free from consequence though. I have been googling, and I can't find any instance of kiddy fiddling by ambassadors. Bad behavior tends to get punished in the home countries, and if it doesn't, then diplomatic contact breaks down, sometimes for years.
 
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The point is, without immunity there is nothing stopping Russia or whoever just accusing diplomats of crimes and locking them up.

This isn't about actual crimes, it is accusations of crime. Absolutely there should be a mechanism for trial, be it in the diplomats home country, or an international court, but immunity 100% has to remain for it to work, diplomats have literally stopped wars.
 
Gwadien

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Raven said:
The point is, without immunity there is nothing stopping Russia or whoever just accusing diplomats of crimes and locking them up.

This isn't about actual crimes, it is accusations of crime. Absolutely there should be a mechanism for trial, be it in the diplomats home country, or an international court, but immunity 100% has to remain for it to work, diplomats have literally stopped wars.
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I dunno, you're kinda suggesting that nefarious states won't act beyond official channels to target diplomats, I'm not sure that's true, I'm sure there's been some dodgy stuff going on due to threats to family etc.

If you look at the history of diplomatic immunity in regards to the US, the history has consisted pretty much of other countries asking for US diplomatically protected people to be extradited and the US saying no, but it doesn't seem to work the other way around.

What is even the point of having a diplomatic team on the ground in other countries anymore in this day and age anyway? Do you think ambassadors visit the White House in person every time they are requested? I doubt it.

I'd wager the majority of people who are protected work for intelligence anyway, some weird mutual espionage shit..
 
Scouse

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SilverHood said:
I have been googling, and I can't find any instance of kiddy fiddling by ambassadors.
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It's because it doesn't get investigated - because they're immune.

Why do I think crime is rife in the diplomatic services? Because they're the same animal as us - and it's rife from the bottom to the top of our society. Look at places where the police can look - but don't - i.e. the catholic church and our politicians. Massive scandals because of not legal, just functional protection.

The diplomatic service have legal protections, they're the same animals as the rest of us, our politicians are full of graft anyway.

I'd very much like to see at least a very serious lessening on what is covered by diplomatic immunity and tighter rules on when it can apply.
 
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Gwadien said:
I dunno, you're kinda suggesting that nefarious states won't act beyond official channels to target diplomats, I'm not sure that's true, I'm sure there's been some dodgy stuff going on due to threats to family etc.

If you look at the history of diplomatic immunity in regards to the US, the history has consisted pretty much of other countries asking for US diplomatically protected people to be extradited and the US saying no, but it doesn't seem to work the other way around.

What is even the point of having a diplomatic team on the ground in other countries anymore in this day and age anyway? Do you think ambassadors visit the White House in person every time they are requested? I doubt it.

I'd wager the majority of people who are protected work for intelligence anyway, some weird mutual espionage shit..
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Personal relationships for the most part, I imagine lots of diplomats roll their eyes about mummy and daddy arguing again and then come up with an agreement, or at least a channel of communication. Even in war that line exists.
 
Scouse

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Raven said:
The point is, without immunity there is nothing stopping Russia or whoever just accusing diplomats of crimes and locking them up.
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There's nothing really stopping them anyway other than the fact that it's in their own self-interest not to.
 
SilverHood

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Gwadien said:
I dunno, you're kinda suggesting that nefarious states won't act beyond official channels to target diplomats, I'm not sure that's true, I'm sure there's been some dodgy stuff going on due to threats to family etc.

If you look at the history of diplomatic immunity in regards to the US, the history has consisted pretty much of other countries asking for US diplomatically protected people to be extradited and the US saying no, but it doesn't seem to work the other way around.

What is even the point of having a diplomatic team on the ground in other countries anymore in this day and age anyway? Do you think ambassadors visit the White House in person every time they are requested? I doubt it.

I'd wager the majority of people who are protected work for intelligence anyway, some weird mutual espionage shit..
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If you had ever lived abroad, you'd know what services your embassy provides. Mine (Danish embassy) provides the following:
Some legal assistance in case you are arrested, notification to next of kin about what has happened, etc
In case of death, or accident that leaves you unable to speak, they contact next of kin, etc, they can assist with getting you home
Passport issuance / renewal services, or emergency passport if you lost it
Visa and residency permit processing for non EU citizens visiting / moving to Denmark
Translations services and certification of documents, to a standard accepted by US government agencies and other local government departments
They can interface with law enforcement in case you go missing abroad
If you end up in a sticky situation regarding travel and visa statues (say, you're flying directly to Mexico, but flight diverts to the USA), they can help smooth things out, so you don't end up living in an airport, or in an ICE detention center
There's also a bunch of business services, if you want to do business with companies in Denmark, or start a department in Denmark, the embassy will be able to provide an introduction

It's a lot more than just sitting around waiting for the locals to call. And yeah, if you are summonsed by your host government, you tend to show up, in person.
 
Gwadien

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SilverHood said:
If you had ever lived abroad, you'd know what services your embassy provides. Mine (Danish embassy) provides the following:
Some legal assistance in case you are arrested, notification to next of kin about what has happened, etc
In case of death, or accident that leaves you unable to speak, they contact next of kin, etc, they can assist with getting you home
Passport issuance / renewal services, or emergency passport if you lost it
Visa and residency permit processing for non EU citizens visiting / moving to Denmark
Translations services and certification of documents, to a standard accepted by US government agencies and other local government departments
They can interface with law enforcement in case you go missing abroad
If you end up in a sticky situation regarding travel and visa statues (say, you're flying directly to Mexico, but flight diverts to the USA), they can help smooth things out, so you don't end up living in an airport, or in an ICE detention center
There's also a bunch of business services, if you want to do business with companies in Denmark, or start a department in Denmark, the embassy will be able to provide an introduction

It's a lot more than just sitting around waiting for the locals to call. And yeah, if you are summonsed by your host government, you tend to show up, in person.
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They're services... Is the person who processes visa going to be protected?
 
Scouse

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Gwadien said:
They're services... Is the person who processes visa going to be protected?
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We need to stop seeing it as "protection" and see it for what it is - privilege.

Free wine for diplomats has been part of the package at times as I understand it. In the same way that when they introduced VAT on EU border crossings (doing away with "duty free") part of the package of privileges that diplomats get is that those rules don't apply to them.
 
SilverHood

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Gwadien said:
They're services... Is the person who processes visa going to be protected?
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The clerk who handles the paperwork? Probably not. The consular officer who is in charge of the operation? Yes, I would expect so. I will ask next time I see my friends who work at various consular offices here in NYC.

As Scouse said, it's a privilege, it can be revoked at any time by your home nation, or you can be asked to leave by the host nation. Considering there are some 3000 or so embassies and consulates across the world, and at least one or more of those will have staff with diplomatic immunity, I'm surprised that we don't see more issues arising. Perhaps because of its sensitive nature, you don't give diplomatic immunity to just anyone. When they're abroad, they're an extension of the country they belong to. Even tin pot dictators chose carefully.
 
Gwadien

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SilverHood said:
The clerk who handles the paperwork? Probably not. The consular officer who is in charge of the operation? Yes, I would expect so. I will ask next time I see my friends who work at various consular offices here in NYC.

As Scouse said, it's a privilege, it can be revoked at any time by your home nation, or you can be asked to leave by the host nation. Considering there are some 3000 or so embassies and consulates across the world, and at least one or more of those will have staff with diplomatic immunity, I'm surprised that we don't see more issues arising. Perhaps because of its sensitive nature, you don't give diplomatic immunity to just anyone. When they're abroad, they're an extension of the country they belong to. Even tin pot dictators chose carefully.
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I dunno, I think the two roles show why, I still don't understand why one requires diplomatic privileges over the other.
 
Scouse

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SilverHood said:
I'm surprised that we don't see more issues arising.
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They're not investigated (what's the point?). And where obvious they're covered up - just like the catholic church covered up all of the institutional paedophilia until that, eventually, was blown wide open. Or like the christian brother who was "retired" on the quiet when I was at school for <insert obvious finger here>.

Of course, take away that privilege and they'll complain that you're putting them in danger.

I don't buy it.
 
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Scouse

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If the outcome is something other than "has been asked to complete a re-education course on the requirements of political impartiality in the constabulary" then that'd be a bit shit.
 
Gwadien

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Scouse said:
If the outcome is something other than "has been asked to complete a re-education course on the requirements of political impartiality in the constabulary" then that'd be a bit shit.
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Nah, she'll be sacked for anti-semitism.
 
Gwadien

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Scouse said:
All of these people are describing working illegal hours.

Why isn't the beeb pointing this out?

www.bbc.co.uk

'I was working 72 hours a week - it was cult-like'

As first-year Goldman Sachs analysts ask for a cap on their hours, four BBC News readers share their schedules.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
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I think Goldman Sachs did something in response to this when it came out, like a no cocaine wednesday or something.
 
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