The RVR community: A plea for diversity

[Flimgoblin]

Oh so duping somebody out of gold is screwing somebody over , but going to agramon and adding on fg v fg fights isnt ?

ok im really glad FH mods represent the views of the community

Glad to see you didn't bother reading the rest of my post. Good way to discuss things.

How about I reply to

I'm really glad FH mods

Thanks glad you're glad of us!

 

[Shafu]

This forum is not quite what it used to be, but imho neither is the game.

I love the fact that we can not communicate with enemies in-game. It ensures some distance to our enemies which I think is a good thing. That being said, it's great to have a forum like this where we can share opinions, stories, etc with allies as well as enemies. The problem is that "the community" no longer consists of albs, mids and hibs. Instead, we are very focused on playstyles and we judge each player individually regardless of realm. There seems to be an agreement among the majority of players that certain unwritten rules should be respected.

Even though Im not too fond of "unwritten rules" I can certainly understand why they are so predominant in the community. Mythic has not done a very good job at making it clear what this game is all about (through design). Realm pride is at an all-time low, and instead we focus on individual and group acomplishments/playstyles. However, the game is not designed for the "fair fights" that many players are seeking either, and then the problems/flames/mudslinging arise.

Just my 2c, hope it was somewhat on-topic

 

[elbeek]

And why would I help you through the PvE grind if I know you'll ruin the rvr for me ? It's like giving a gun to a criminal when I know he'll rob me

OMG. How the fuck can you liken a game to giving a crim a gun? This sudden elitism over fg v fg is getting to the point of hysteria amongst some of you.

 

[Succi]

Ok so , a thread warning people about a "gold scammer" who names a certain player and a certain guild would get locked ?

just in the same way the synergy thread did about 8v8 adding ?

Both within the CoC , what justification is there to lock one and not the other

 

[elbeek]

Ok so , a thread warning people about a "gold scammer" who names a certain player and a certain guild would get locked ?

just in the same way the synergy thread did about 8v8 adding ?

Both within the CoC , what justification is there to lock one and not the other

YAY another fucking qq about Synergy. HOW FUCKING ORIGINAL.

Ok I now apologise for global warming, the war in Iraq, people who are wheelchair bound, and the fact that you need to get a life.

 

[Sharkith]

at least there is a fairly decent discussion going on. Over on Pryd.net Lairiodd has made a few great suggestions its a pity we can't have some cross fertilisation. first of all FG GMs and guilds should read this. It is a bit involved for my liking and in fact I actually think that group can solve their issues much less formally. However it is the kind of way we need people thinking - to consider it constructively.

Full groups need to seriously need to consider how they behave to soloers and remember that ganking them when they are also complaining about no adds is a bit hypocritical. In a zergy area however I think everyone should really just agree that it is a free for all. Those whishing to adhere to a code are free to do this and at least have some comfort that they are holding to their principles no matter where they are. Its called ethical pull and we can be smug and get our reward in nirvana I fink..

The soloer adding issue
This is infinitely much more difficult and would require much more tolerance and a lot more effort to try and help with. As for the solo issue I think Lairiodd has also made another great suggestion.

How about soloers who want help or who wish to enjoy a zergy free for all to wear what ever they like. Those that are requesting to be solo and have no help wear black. The all black armour is a signal to those in game that you would prefer not to be interfered with. You really should avoid zergy areas though and you above all else must realise you have no sacrosanct right to being left alone. Shit happens. This goes for all people.

Think about this perhaps start a new thread on solo flaging. if you can make it work maybe the Excal-Pryd community might even be one of the first to indicate to Mythic how to positively solve problems in game ? Maybe they might even help you with the appropriate gaming code for solo flags.

Once more no solution is perfect but already in two days there is plenty to think about. I do hope some of you start to see that there is a way to actually change things here. Not a universal solution but a pragmatic way forward as a community.

kind regards

Sharkith

p.s. and before you all qq about black not being your colour (it can be fucking anything for all I care). Consider that when you wear it you join a creed and a sub-culture with in a sub-culture. Wear that colour with pride and try to hold to some sort of code and learn to see that when you bitch and whine you trample that creed into the ground.

 

[Bugz]

I actually dislike this discussion.

I don't come to RvR forum to see essays on diversity. I come on to see whines, gratz threads and the such.

Givf old forums bk.

 

[Succi]

I hope that wasnt a personal insult elbeek , would suck to get this thread banned like your beloved synergytheultimate8v8group one was

oh and i think most of community would settle for apology about adding then lying about it HEHE

 

[illu]

at least there is a fairly decent discussion going on. Over on Pryd.net Lairiodd has made a few great suggestions its a pity we can't have some cross fertilisation. first of all FG GMs and guilds should read this. It is a bit involved for my liking and in fact I actually think that group can solve their issues much less formally. However it is the kind of way we need people thinking - to consider it constructively.

Full groups need to seriously need to consider how they behave to soloers and remember that ganking them when they are also complaining about no adds is a bit hypocritical. In a zergy area however I think everyone should really just agree that it is a free for all. Those whishing to adhere to a code are free to do this and at least have some comfort that they are holding to their principles no matter where they are. Its called ethical pull and we can be smug and get our reward in nirvana I fink..

The soloer adding issue
This is infinitely much more difficult and would require much more tolerance and a lot more effort to try and help with. As for the solo issue I think Lairiodd has also made another great suggestion.

How about soloers who want help or who wish to enjoy a zergy free for all to wear what ever they like. Those that are requesting to be solo and have no help wear black. The all black armour is a signal to those in game that you would prefer not to be interfered with. You really should avoid zergy areas though and you above all else must realise you have no sacrosanct right to being left alone. Shit happens. This goes for all people.

Think about this perhaps start a new thread on solo flaging. if you can make it work maybe the Excal-Pryd community might even be one of the first to indicate to Mythic how to positively solve problems in game ? Maybe they might even help you with the appropriate gaming code for solo flags.

Once more no solution is perfect but already in two days there is plenty to think about. I do hope some of you start to see that there is a way to actually change things here. Not a universal solution but a pragmatic way forward as a community.

kind regards

Sharkith

p.s. and before you all qq about black not being your colour (it can be fucking anything for all I care). Consider that when you wear it you join a creed and a sub-culture with in a sub-culture. Wear that colour with pride and try to hold to some sort of code and learn to see that when you bitch and whine you trample that creed into the ground.

Black is so last season though :/ Pink is the new black :>

Oli - Illu

[Edit] PS Nerf your Later PS edit :>

 

[Flimgoblin]

Ok so , a thread warning people about a "gold scammer" who names a certain player and a certain guild would get locked ?

just in the same way the synergy thread did about 8v8 adding ?

Both within the CoC , what justification is there to lock one and not the other

The reason add whines get locked is because the vast majority of the playerbase adds (and everyone else has added at some point in time).

If the vast majority of the playerbase gold scammed then we'd probably have other issues.

Stealing from other people is pretty obviously a bad thing in most people's moral view.

Joining in a fight in RvR (an area denoted for battles with the enemy realm) and playing the game as it's intended - within the spirit of the game (gold scamming isn't within the spirit of the game - you're meant to be on the same side as your realm mates) is not obviously a bad thing in most people's moral view.

I can see there's a subculture here where joining in such a fight is very much against a "moral code" however it's a minority, and this forum is not here for them to police their moral code (especially not on people who don't prescribe to it).

You'd probably be far better off creating a forum where people signed up as part of the "in crowd" and you could sanction (with whine). However hurling abuse (as "adding" accusations have been in the past) in this forum in order to police your own strange moral agenda is not on.

(edit: see Lairiodd's post on prydwen.net)

I see where you're coming from and I can see why you get annoyed at people adding. If they're going out of their way to add on you then I'd probably be annoyed at them as well - but not because of the adding, because of the intentional aim to grief people.

If it wasn't for the fact that just about every grats thread posted on FH for a month or two for anyone not in "the club" got flamed to hell and back with "omgz adding coxxor!" then saying "someone added" might not have become taboo.

 

[Shafu]

Those that are requesting to be solo and have no help wear black.Sharkith

One problem. Shades of mist

Personally, I think this problem should be solved through game design, not by players. OF had a very simple yet effective approach (unintentionally Im sure, considering how miserable NF is in comparison). Soloers could choose from mainly three areas (emain, odins, hadrians) If one was empty or too crowded you could move on to the next. Simple, but a very solid basis for RvR. This is the kind of scalability/adaptability I miss in NF.

 

[Jupiter]

I dont think people actually appreciate what it takes to form and run a successful opted gg. Firstly let me state that we dont see ourselves as leet. Secondly, when we run in certain area's, namely agramon where we expect and respect fg vs fg action.

The core of the group i am currently part of have been together for approx 2 years as a set-group. During that time we have lost 4+ bards, 3+ druids and about 6+ dmg dealers. Its not easy to pick up the pieces, reform the group, recruit dedicated ppl and get them to gel together as a unit. We as a group enjoy nothing more than giving the other gg's from other realms a good tough fight whether we win or loose. It annoys the fuck outta me when a fight could go either way when some wanker/wankers add on a fight. And, as others have pointed out, a waste of our effort.

Adding is easy, anybody can do it, i can log my ment and aoe dot the fuck outta ppl and get rps for it... ohh joy.. i can stand at the bridges and do the same with any of my chars... oh joy. IF we as a group run into IRVR areas we expect to get added on and u will hear no complaints, in theses areas everything is fair game (unless we are far enough away from the action).. but then u have some tosspots who will always choose the easy route no matter what area they run in

 

[Succi]

The reason add whines get locked is because the vast majority of the playerbase adds (and everyone else has added at some point in time).

Im not gonna whine on a random PUG that adds in the middle of a IRVR zone , but when a guild group travels to a pre-designated 8v8 zone and then adds on fights its a very very low thing to do.

Surely you can see the difference, 90% of the whines are against people who claim they 8v8 and then blatently add... and in this case happened to get found out in the most hilarious and embarassing (for them) way.

 

[Vodkafairy]

agramon was intended for "rvr for the hell of it", regular frontiers were intented for sieging.

camping bridges, rpfarming in insta-rvr, 1v1, 8v8, none of those were what daoc was supposed to be about. large scale rvr and siege warfare is what mythic tried to accomplish with NF, but they fucked up.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Im not gonna whine on a random PUG that adds in the middle of a IRVR zone , but when a guild group travels to a pre-designated 8v8 zone and then adds on fights its a very very low thing to do.

Surely you can see the difference, 90% of the whines are against people who claim they 8v8 and then blatently add... and in this case happened to get found out in the most hilarious and embarassing (for them) way.

I agree, that's a nasty thing to do - it's griefing, however unless we have a list of people signed up to no-adding and a section specifically for whining about people on the list breaking the rules there's no way to tell who's out purely to ruin fights or who's just fancied running to agramon for a while.

You say you won't whine on a PUG - fair enough - however some of your fellow 8v8ers (whether you class them as your fellows or not - to the majority they look like they're with you) certainly do.

Maybe I just do too good a job of deleting the add whines but I can tell you that an awful lot of them are at people who have no pretentions of 8v8 fg non-adding-ness. Almost every archer grats thread was filled with add whine a few months ago. I doubt many archers are in fg gank groups

I think this whole signup "code of conduct" wotsit might well be the way forward for the 8v8ers. For one you could distance yourself from the "griefing adding fg" and from the "zerg farming fg" and the "soloer splatting fg" as well as the "fight in main RvR zone and whine about adds fg" who I'm afraid you get lumped in with at the moment as just "fg players".

 

[Succi]

I agree, that's a nasty thing to do - it's griefing

Ok im glad we agreed something , so then why was the synergy thread closed ? when its reporting grief in the same way a "DONT TRADE WITH THIS PERSON" thread is.

This is the double-standards most people are getting very annoyed over , especially when the mod who locked the thread obviously had other interests in the thread being closed

 

[elbeek]

I hope that wasnt a personal insult elbeek , would suck to get this thread banned like your beloved synergytheultimate8v8group one was

oh and i think most of community would settle for apology about adding then lying about it HEHE

Apologise for what exactly? I guess its fotm for the "leetomgisofuckingrawkzormeights" to slag our guild off. FYI having looked at the video, I wasn't even there so dunno when , where or at what time it was taken.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Ok im glad we agreed something , so then why was the synergy thread closed ? when its reporting grief in the same way a "DONT TRADE WITH THIS PERSON" thread is.

This is the double-standards most people are getting very annoyed over , especially when the mod who locked the thread obviously had other interests in the thread being closed

The thread is closed because this is NOT the fg 8v8 forum. Your morals are not what the FH forum is run to: the CoC is, and add whine is forbidden. You've decided to play the game a different way and make up your own rules, that's fine, do it if you want - talk about it if you want, but don't use it to insult people on this board.


Edit:

Incidentally if you were upset at people wearing red armour in RvR and posted "bah you wear red armour" it wouldn't be a problem. If people hadn't turned "add" into an insult then it wouldn't be a problem to post it. However months and months of "adding coxxor retard" posts make it synonymous. Plus any accusation turns into the first shot in a flame war.

 

[Sharkith]

Its seems that some of the moderation debate has spilled over into this thread and that makes baby Jesus cry. Succi please we are going to lose something important if you have a vendetta on the moderation issue please take it to a PM.

Thats coming from a non Mod and someone who just wants to read about possible solutions.

As for in game solutions. The soloer issue is so hard - and yes SOM does mess it up as does stealth. However SOM is not always up and people are not always stealthed. So whils it is not a perfect solution it has some merit no?

Better than add whine because on add whine I am 110% behind Film for one.

 

[Fyric]

I've never actually read the CoC, but telling people to stop ruining your fun to profit their own is against it?, because regardless of where you're fighting, who you're fighting, you will still be ruining it for the ones fighting, regardless of it being in the CoC or not,
most people have "helped out" in a fight, and been told to bugger off afterwards, already here the person that helped have been told that it ruins the fun for the person they're helping, and yet still this person continues todo it, if thats not griefing, what is? (and yes i know its legal todo, but that doesnt really change anything does it?)

 

[Slayn]

You see this is the problem here, you're considering just the 8v8 "elite" to be "the RvR community" - they're not. There's more than just you playing the game.

Edit: Obviously the 8v8ers are part of the community but there's no room for them abusing people personally for adding in the same way there's no room for the zergers abusing the 8v8s for not helping out on a siege or giving personal attacks for killing them while they're xping in the frontier.

I saw this sort of a reply coming. Should have been clearer in my post. Not to make my point clearer, but to remove the option for you of dealing with a relatively minor point and ignoring the major one.

I don't believe people who run full groups represent the entire rvr community, nor do I think they're the only ones playing the game. But even if people running fg's represented 0.1% of the community, all the points I made would still stand. I won't restate what I am saying because it's all in the original post. And you still havn't responded to it.

The second part of your response again is arguing at me against a point I havn't made. Where have I said personal attacks are ok? You tell me, 'there's no room for 8v8'ers abusing people personally'? Fine, I agree, I never said there should be in the first place. Nor have I given abuse, other than the odd bit of sarcasm and the odd loan of a rope with which someone like Beeks seems so eager to hang himself. So I don't see why you felt the need to write any of that in response to me.

What I *would* suggest, is that you seem openly hostile to the 8v8 community, which for you it seems are exactly the same as the 'elitist' community. The fact that you consider the two to be one and the same in itself shows prejudice. I suggest it because you don't extend to them the same treatment that you would any other part of the community. You also single them out in a way that I don't even understand. Since I also run small-groups, and solo, and I have relic raided and lead OF rvr CG's (especially in my first year playing DAoC). Yet you seem perfectly happy to class anyone who feels adding is a bad thing and wishes to have fg fights as an elitist. To me, you are the one with the chip on your shoulder there.

You also havn't answered my first post. Do you acknowledge the there is a difference between the CoC and what communities accept as decent behaviour. And if so, do you acknowledge the right of people who want fg rvr to do the same. NOT to abuse. NOT to censur other people's playstyles. But simply to develop some agreement between those who are willing. My original point is recent mod activity impeded that, because you define it as 'add-whine'. Yes it is people saying what they consider to be undesirable behaviour. But it is not done in an abusive way, there is no attempt to *force* people to follow rules. And, like I say, I find there is relatively little difference between that and threads such as Maeloch's about Barker/Xioeen.

I'd appreciate an answer to the at least the thrust of my point here. I don't think your first response answered my concerns, it merely restated your own grudge against what you perceive to be the '8v8 elitists' and was thus in no way related to the points I myself am making.

 

[Slayn]

The thread is closed because this is NOT the fg 8v8 forum. Your morals are not what the FH forum is run to: the CoC is, and add whine is forbidden. You've decided to play the game a different way and make up your own rules, that's fine, do it if you want - talk about it if you want, but don't use it to insult people on this board.


Edit:

Incidentally if you were upset at people wearing red armour in RvR and posted "bah you wear red armour" it wouldn't be a problem. If people hadn't turned "add" into an insult then it wouldn't be a problem to post it. However months and months of "adding coxxor retard" posts make it synonymous. Plus any accusation turns into the first shot in a flame war.

Need clarification here. Are you saying any mention of 'adding' is instantly regarded as whine/insult, since the two are synonymous, I don't see where that's explicit in the FH CoC. I don't see why the two should be synonymous, but it does explain a lot. Since from what I can see the closed thread had no more than a trace element of whine. Crom mentions adding for example but there is nothing whiney in his post he doesn't even pass judgement he just says it happened. Same go's for someone who posted about a hib guild adding. Are mods considering these posts to be 'whine'? There is hostility in the thread but as I have said, it comes, imo, mostly from a very aggressive, mocking attitude from Elbeeks, who seems to be the only person in the thread who has received no mod attention.

So can you re-write the CoC to say 'No mention of adding can be made because this will be considered whine no matter what its context or intonation[/b].' Because that would be a far more accurate description of current FH policy.

 

[Slayn]

All your posts are attacking a straw-man Flim.

I don't see any requests from anyone that they should be allowed to attack others, to 'tell' them how to play the game or to abuse. I don't see any requests that people should be able to make threads that attack people indiscriminately for adding. You say that stuffs bad, that's all very well, but it's your straw man, and it's not what people are complaining about or upset about.

What they are upset about is that there was a thread on the subject of events in Agramon. Which had constructive posts, and yes, was contentious, but wasn't about imposing playstyles, or abuse, or any of the things you list. It was an open discussion, not a targetted attack. Someone made claims, in an aggressive way, those claims were proven false. Despite this, the thread still hasn't descended to flaming. None of the stuff you describe as off-limits has occurred. But the thread was still locked.

Please answer this one legitimate concern. And stop pulling apart your straw man.

 

[Flimgoblin]

You've added your own "version" of the game within the game, that's all fine and dandy. You can decide on what rules you want to play with each other as well, again that's fine and dandy.

However, this isn't the place to do the "outing" of people as "adders".

Expecting anyone else to follow these rules or attacking anyone for not following these rules is not on.

The locked thread which started all this was degenerating into a slagging match - you might not have intended it to go that way but that's where it was going. It should have gone down to another mod to lock it since there was the possibility of bias but it was our new mods first day and everything's not perfect. Things will always be a bit rocky when we have new people dealing with things.

This has nothing to do with what playstyle you have either - if you're a 1v1er or a zerger or whatever, attack someone on this forum for adding and you will get warned/the thread will get locked. Personal attacks are not tolerated.

Some banter is allowed - but if yer taking the piss you get a warning.

Anyway Sharkith has asked that this thread not be about modding, so take it to the one in the General forum.

Edit: or PM a mod if you have issues with moderation - far more likely to get you a useful response than posting an "OMGZ fascist mods hate us all!" or even a "moderation ott!" thread.

 

[kirennia]

Although I have agreed to the rules, this whole adding issue has puzzled me quite a lot. If people are banned/threads locked because of someone personally 'attacking' someonelse by called them an adder, why are people not banned for whining about people who played warlocks It's about the same level of an 'attack' as calling someone an adder. It was only outlawed because the word was being used as an insult, afterall...

 

[Flimgoblin]

Although I have agreed to the rules, this whole adding issue has puzzled me quite a lot. If people are banned/threads locked because of someone personally 'attacking' someonelse by called them an adder, why are people not banned for whining about people who played warlocks It's about the same level of an 'attack' as calling someone an adder. It was only outlawed because the word was being used as an insult, afterall...

People who posted particularly nasty warlock whine got into trouble, if it got personal e.g. "omgz you play a warlock you must be such a retard". Had to clean up a few warlock grats threads.

I would agree though I have been harsh on add-whine, more so than any other sort of insult - thats because there was just so much of it (it was a 3 day ban before now it's just a warning we'll see how we go) and every single time it degenerated into flames.

Was an incredibly irritating trend of:
Thread started on something reasonably interesting
Post by someone
Post by someonelse
Post entirely off topic of "yeah but someoneelse is such an adder! olol! never see them solo"
"stfu! you're one to talk"
"never leave the tower without your DI bot!"
4 pages of flames.

And bleh I said I'd stop talking about moderation, sorry Sharkith.

 

[kirennia]

People who posted particularly nasty warlock whine got into trouble, if it got personal e.g. "omgz you play a warlock you must be such a retard". Had to clean up a few warlock grats threads.

I would agree though I have been harsh on add-whine, more so than any other sort of insult - thats because there was just so much of it (it was a 3 day ban before now it's just a warning we'll see how we go) and every single time it degenerated into flames.

Was an incredibly irritating trend of:
Thread started on something reasonably interesting
Post by someone
Post by someonelse
Post entirely off topic of "yeah but someoneelse is such an adder! olol! never see them solo"
"stfu! you're one to talk"
"never leave the tower without your DI bot!"
4 pages of flames.

And bleh I said I'd stop talking about moderation, sorry Sharkith.

I completely agree with you that such threads should be closed. So many threads have gone down the pan from a discussion into flames it's untrue.

The thing that makes me wonder is why was it completely outlawed to even mention it. I realise that it stops potential flame fests before they even start but it does penalise the people who want to start discussions about it without resorting to flames straight off.

If for example I came on here and started a thread because I wanted to talk to people from another realm about it (I don't use irc), to politely ask people to just leave me be, would I be warned straight off for it? It's not that I would EXPECT people to adhere to my gameplay choice, but some people if asked nicely actually do respect your decisions in game.

In the same manner, would a thread such as 'whats with all the animists out in rvr recently' not have to be locked for the same reason (to stop a potential flamefest)? It is afterall no better then a discussion about adding on the good ol' potentially-starting-a-flame-fest-whine-o-meter.

It aint an easy job; I'm not sure I'd want to moderate some of the threads around here, but taking drastic measures to eradicate a type of flame where innocent people suffer as well is a tricky business.

 

[Flimgoblin]

indeed I think I'm going to lighten up a bit on the adding stuff, it's gotten to reflex level but if we end up with the crap we had before I'll go back to my instabanzor hammer of doom

Incidentally if you do see any thread locked/etc. that you think shouldn't be let me or another mod know, I know I'm happy to discuss why threads are locked and have been persuaded to reopen some in the past.

And gah! sorry sharkith gonna warn myself for being offtopic

 

[censi]

can you be more specific when you say your going to lighten up on the add stuff?

Do you mean we can discuss and acuse people of adding as long as we do it in a non agressive sensible way without profanity?

ie saying "you added on me 30 mins ago when figthing Jonathan the Wizard" is ok.

 

[Tuorin]

Sadly we have had these discussions umpteen times before Sharkith, you made a decent attempt to generate dialogue over issues.

Theres a top and bottom line here.

1 Certain people on these forums have proclaimed that they will play the game as intended and anything with a red name is an enemy, anywhere. Thats a choice and is perceived by some as the way the game should be played at all times.

2 Those certain people in numerous previous threads have intimated that they will go and "spoil" rvr for the "perceived, community driven idea" of a fg v fg zone, ie agramon because they have been called (dare i say it) Adders. Or they have imperceivably read a message on their screen to tell them to stop spoiling and this has been acknowledged as griefing I think. These people post under the banner of "I have been killed at any given point in the game by superior numbers than me and i am going to enact my revenge, deliberately on everyone else". This provides each and everyone of such an opinion with an instant form of grudge to every single player that runs in a group of 8. These will be attacked without mercy or malice aforethought at any time, anywhere. They will all be categorised carte blanche as some form of minority and be shunned as the minority and then quote the Daoc code of conduct as their defence too do so.

3 The moderators of the forum have a bias within their policy. It basically allows some people to go and grief under a pretext that is alright to repair some perceived past injustice but doesn't allow ANYONE to point out a negative in the situation, ie grieving 8 people deliberately. There have been posters in the recent past who have said "they will go and zerg agramon" with no other reason that they are allowed to, yet if one person who is defeated by this person(s) in combat, points this out, the thread gets locked.

I pointed out several months ago that the remit the moderators act under is one that permeates a bias to those that choose to deliberately grief, not dis-similar to the threads mentioned by others re barker and co. That we now have a mod closing threads from within the very heart of this matter adds even more irony to the position that the mods have chosen.

Anyway, its a game and i'm probably too old to be playing, but Mods, think about the conflict your rules face and how a signifcant proportion of people view it.

Finally nothing will ever change anyway, so even with all the intelligent or thought provoking thoughts being offered, you that do are seen as being at conflict with the mod policy of these forums and ultimately those people you claim attack you in game when fighting others, will continue to do so.

They'll even brag about it and incite frustration, but they will do in the knowledge that should you complain, it is you that will suffer and the mods will fall in behind them.