The RVR community: A plea for diversity

[Bugz]

"No one ever said it was gonna be easy"... but enough of the Inspiral Carpets. You can't win as a mod, you either over-mod, under-mod, or get it right. When you get it right no-one ever notices & therefore no ones says thanks, when you get it wrong you get shot down like a zeppelin.

You don't roll as mod to win

 

[Sharkith]

BTW - Shark, aren't you supposed to be doing some work, or writting something important. Not that trying to bring peace, calm & general well being to these inhabitants here isn't a good cause to fight for if you feel like it?

Genedril thanks for clarifying yes I was supposed to be writing when I posted that but I have a bit of block just now . nvm it will come hopefully today or tomorrow.

Censi I totally accept your apology and I am sorry for getting flamy like a whining bitch that was wrong . I had to be abstract I know but like I said I wanted to put it as clearly as I could I was dissappointed I could not make it in the original thread but hey maybe its better here. Tbh your post was more vague and potentially 10times more damaging but lets drop it.

Lets step back from the question of modding and bias thats a seperate question.

What is the one thing that frustrates you more than anything censi? Put it in a seperate thread tell it as it is and tell it maybe as a story. If you feel like venting do it as much as you like. If you do it please be prepared for some of us to challenge YOU and the other good players to do something about it.

BTW you have made really cool movies why not make one that explains your biggest frustration in a non flame non aggressive manner? Would that not be doing more for the community and your own playstyle than anything else. You can communicate through movies without being l33t and you can make your point and possibly influence more people that way.

What beats the shit out of me is why so many of these movies are a dick waving contest when all you guys need to do is realise you have a very powerful medium at your fingertips. If you use it right you can be far more effective than you ever will be on a FH forum. Try to be constructive in them and build your case. A movie that made that point might persuade more and more to think before jumping. That is not all thats needed but its one thing amongst others that you could do for us all who are in the community.

 

[Tilda]

ok in a friendly banter kind of way (not being sarcastic either) personally think having 2 mods in same guild that happens to like adding, but enforce a no add post policy at same time, is a bit of a proverbial piss take.

afaik, all the acctual "mods", excluding sticky mods, are in different guilds...

 

[Gahn]

Maybe I've caught entirely the wrong end of the stick with your post here Sharkith (the replies seem to indicate this is what you were meaning but perhaps they've misunderstood you too).

You're asking for room for diversity in posting? for the ability to post what you feel no matter how you play the game.

Is it just me that finds this an odd way to defend add whine - what is essentially a bullying tactic employed by a small minority of the game playing populace in order to suppress people playing the game in a perfectly legal manner.

If you're trying to say that stomping out add whine is possibly as bad as add whine (trying to stop adding) in the first place then I see where you're coming from however I completely disagree.

Firstly, Noone is subjected to abuse for posting add whine, they are asked to stop and their posts are removed. Same cannot be said for those who "enforce" their no-adding rules.

Secondly, the rules of this forum were there when you signed up. The rules of "adding" or not adding (or in a more generic sense "lame playstyle") are not written anywhere or agreed upon by anyone except the person venting at that particular time.

It's all good and dandy m8 but can i ask wtf some ppl are doing? When we had some long and heated discussion weeks ago about the 8vs8 and other bs ALL people "agreed" that Agramon would have been THE zone for 8vs8 and fg minded ppl would have stopped whining for adding and other bs in all other zones bar that one. The very same ppl (who rightly moaned about fg minded ppl whining about adds in other zones) now is going in Agramon and don't stick with the "rules" they agreed upon and we can't even slap em?
LOL tbh

 

[Fyric]

Sharkith:

The idea is very nice, really it is, but as hotlava pointed out, once you've crossed that bridge theres no going back, This game is more of a sport for these players than an actual game, much in the same way as the best counter strike players consider it a sport(the ones that make a living from it, not the 13 year old kids that seem to think ruling an FFA server makes you great).

The way i see it the best thing todo for both parties is just split them up, the elitist pricks as some call them go somewhere and have their Fg vs FG fights.
The other core of players, the random no good for anything fucking roleplayers, (as the elitists call them ) can have every other area for themselves, personally i dont think its that much to ask but i guess thats up to each individual.

Now, that was the almost neutral version, here comes my own:

Personally i think that the elitists have every right to want even fights, the way i see it is that these players are also the players that would be very good at just about every other computer game, call it natural talent if you will.
Even before SI hit fighting at keeps was quite boring 99,9% of the time, and NF certainly didnt make it more amusing, these people play for the competition, and there's not much competition in having more patience and numbers than the enemy, the only way to have real competition is fighting on even odds, hence 8v8, no adds, it has even got to the point where some of the 'rules' are not to have casters to have even fights.

From my point of view _consciously_ jumping these fights is just a lack of respect for someone that has a different view than your own.
Though on the other hand, some of the bigger groups will steamroll small groups if they meet them during the daytime, and these small groups might want revenge for getting killed over and over by the same group for 4 hours since they dont really have a chance against the RR/talent of the grp that killed them.

Conclusion: I believe the Cliff between casuals/elitists have just grown too big over the years, and the solution to all this bickering is simply giving the elitists one area where they can be, after lets say 19.00 CET each day, everything else will be normal, but all the casuals, which by far outnumber the elitists can have every other area, and the elitists can have.. lets say agramon(example!), whereas in the daytime it could be a real mix of everyone, i can with 99% certainty say that the elitists won't leave agramon if there's anyone to fight on the island.

Just my 50 cents

 

[Flimgoblin]

A few people who spam have gone, but the forum having nothing of intrest speaks for itself, ofcourse the idiots are going to get banned, but people who dont deserve it get banned simply because the mod disliked them, for example jjorah got banned with no reason stated for trying to start a thread with discussed adding, it was clearly not add whine, but the mod using any excuse to ban someone they have disagreed with or dislike, moronic

umm Jjuraa got banned for this lovely piece of posting (and not by me incidentally)

That's not "mods disliking them", that's someone blatantly taking the piss and calling mods nazis, which is not on - feel free to say that my moderation is fascist, I'll not take offence, I'll probably disagree but there ye go. Comparing it to genocide, however, is not on.

 

[Bracken]

Doesn't matter how poetically it's put, this all still comes down to people wanting to be able to bitch about adds and belittle people who don't play the game according to their self-adopted rules. Get over yourselves and stop being so anal about it - just play the frikkin game in whatever way you like but stop expecting everyone else to do the same. And if you can't handle the different playstyles without spitting your dummy out then go play something else (and find another forum).

 

[Flimgoblin]

Conclusion: I believe the Cliff between casuals/elitists have just grown too big over the years, and the solution to all this bickering is simply giving the elitists one area where they can be, after lets say 19.00 CET each day, everything else will be normal, but all the casuals, which by far outnumber the elitists can have every other area, and the elitists can have.. lets say agramon(example!), whereas in the daytime it could be a real mix of everyone, i can with 99% certainty say that the elitists won't leave agramon if there's anyone to fight on the island.

Just my 50 cents

It's been pointed out in the past that agramon is the place to go if you don't want adds yet you still find the FGs skirting the bridges and picking off the odd soloer (before running from the zerg). Thats their prerogative btw no objections to them playing like that, but when you have at least a group from each realm doing the same thing you have to ask "why aren't you in agramon then?"

While there's no in-game rule that says "no adding in agramon" it's just pretty simple logic that if you're out of the way then you won't get anywhere near as many adds.

There was even a poll recently as for the best days to go to agramon yet it seems to have been completely ignored and the fgs are still hanging around the irvr or the bridges or whatever killing people rather than going to agramon for their 8v8 fights.

You can't demand someone plays the game in a particular way, however you can adjust your play so that there's less collisions.

If you decided to play a game of bowls in the far corner of a football pitch you'd probably have a lot less problem with footballers running through your pitch if you're playing in the middle of one of the team's goals.

 

[Bracken]

poor little innocent Mr adder who does it in the name of his realm and in the spirit of the game. He is a nice guy irl, down to earth and sensible, doesnt take daoc too seriously and just plays with the simple object of killing opponents.

One word "buuuuulshit". That person does not exist. In my experience most compulsive adders are like either younger players, inexperienced players, bad players with absolutly zero confidence in their toon or all of the above, and if you do get the chance to ever talk to them they are like morons, haha I pwned you!!!, and you get 500 rofl spams from them as their fg steamrollers u mid fight

You've really lost the plot bud. Not only are you a hypocrite of the highest order but you've disappeared so far up your own arse it's going to be years before you see the sun again.

 

[Fyric]

Like i said, the groups that play for the challenge will go agramon, the groups that play for the rps(?) will try to leach off the zerg, fighting the zerg is obviously better rps/hour than fighting the other fg's, and you do need a certain rr to compete

 

[Zede]

In 6 months time, i expect with rp-a-plenty system most people will be rr9-10.

Assuming people add to get realm points, when realm points become somewhat mute, what then ?

As anyone rr10 will agree, Id happily put /rpoff all night just to have some good fg fights.

 

[xxManiacxx]

afaik the latest "add whine" was indeed inside agramon : )-

 

[Sollac]

interesting grown up thread.... about time.

The thing that gets me is in our frontiers we have so many things to do.

1. 1vs1
2. duo vs duo
3. fg vs fg
4. zerg vs zerg
5. tower demolition
6. keep demolition
7. realm attack
8. realm defence
9. relic attacks
10. relic defence
11. rvr missions
12. general exploring

please feel free to add any i have missed.

personally the ones that i enjoy most are tower/keep raids and defence.

bring alot of people together for a common goal...thats what i call community.

success brings a happy glowing feeling, failure makes you wanna do better next time.

ALarm raids are not my cup of tea, but then we are at war, so use the lack of enemy about to suit your strategy.

Its all about fun....If i get a "DONT ADD" pm from a fellow guildy ill respect it, even after when he cries for help....and then ill finish his target off. I expect no mercy from the enemy realms thus will give none in return.

My 2p

 

[Bugz]

You've really lost the plot bud. Not only are you a hypocrite of the highest order but you've disappeared so far up your own arse it's going to be years before you see the sun again.

I just ignore most of his posts now.

He needs to get a clue

 

[Slayn]

You're asking for room for diversity in posting? for the ability to post what you feel no matter how you play the game.

Is it just me that finds this an odd way to defend add whine - what is essentially a bullying tactic employed by a small minority of the game playing populace in order to suppress people playing the game in a perfectly legal manner.

If you're trying to say that stomping out add whine is possibly as bad as add whine (trying to stop adding) in the first place then I see where you're coming from however I completely disagree.

Firstly, Noone is subjected to abuse for posting add whine, they are asked to stop and their posts are removed. Same cannot be said for those who "enforce" their no-adding rules.

Secondly, the rules of this forum were there when you signed up. The rules of "adding" or not adding (or in a more generic sense "lame playstyle") are not written anywhere or agreed upon by anyone except the person venting at that particular time.

I would hate the idea that the interactions between players in game were based purely on following the CoC. The CoC is simply a very bare set of rules that forbay only the most extreme behaviour. It is lucky this is not the case, instead we have developed as a community far broader codes of what is acceptable.

This isn't something that any one person decides, it grows up around the shared interests of all. And will almost always serve to enhance the playing experience for people. I see no difference between the PvE and RvR game in this regard. The crucial point, and one that I don't understand why a reasonable person like, say, Flim can't grasp, is that these codes are based in the community, it is the community which forms them and the community which maintains them. Not GOA, not Mythic, but us.

The reason this can happen is a) the community is like-minded enough to agree on at least some codes, and b) if the community sees some party walking all over this can say 'fine, you don't respect the community, then don't be part of it'. This is what happens to the Xioeen's and the Barker's etc. Like Paul mentioned, you can join guilds, rip their vault, de-guild, steal arti's on raids and so on, without ever breaking any 'rules'. One of the crucial reasons this doesn't happen, is the community can create some deterrent, usually in the form of non-inclusion or non-cooperation.

For me, what happened with the recent Synergy incident, is that the mods' actions interfered with the above process. If you understand what I said above about the way communities operate, then you can see that the process was in operation, the community was in an effort to find some mutual understanding, a certain party disrupted this, then lied about it to the community, and the community was going to say 'fine, you've shown your true colours, either change this attitude or don't seek to be considered part of our community.'

If you can see this, then you can see that the FH mods interfered with this process. They placed themselves in a higher position of authority than the community.

This sort of thing happens all the time in the PvE side of the game. And havn't often seen mods interfere. (e.g. Maeloch's post about barker/xioeen). Did a mod step in there and say 'they didn't break the CoC, I'm locking this thread because of whine'?

The only way that mod behaviour could be said to be consistent, is if the FH Mods actually believe that there is no such thing as an RvR community. If they see it as what Flim describes as a 'small minority of players'. You seem to have zero tolerance of the idea that RvR players have a sense of decency for the other human beings playing the game, and that RvR players realise some mutual understanding in how we play the game together will enhance the enjoyment for everyone together. If this is the stance of the FH mods, it seems pretty pointless to be using your forums.

 

[Lorfo]

If you see 2 guildgroups fighting each others in 8vs8 and both of them play for the competition etc, you have to expect whine if you add and ruin the fun for all 16 of them.
It's the same if the guildgroups "stole" artifacts pre patch. When you had 30 people waiting to kill danos and they come with sm+bot and kills it.

You know you are lame when you are "adding" (from their pov)
And they know that they are lame when they "stole" the artifact(from your pov)

Since there are different ways to play this game you have to expect whine/complaints if you do stuff that destroys for others. Doesn't matter if you dont give a jackshit about fg vs fg rvr, since they do. And they will COMPLAIN if you do it. Simply dont give them anything to whine about if you cant handle the whine. If I organise some PvE raids and I see a "adder" that ruined several fights for me I'd boot him from the bg f.e.

 

[hotlikelava]

afaik, no FH mods have ever been accepted in the 'real' excal rvr community. thats why they ban ppl to the right and left =)

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

DAoC is no exception from anything else that humans participate in, people argue... allways!

If everyone minded their own dang business instead of trying to make others look bad then DAoC would be a better place.

"sports" DAoC'ers look down on the "wargamer" DAoC'er for some reason, "wargamers" think the "sportsplayer" is usually a self absorbed bastid.

it goes both ways, none of the parts are better or worse in everlasting disagreement, and we wont probably ever agree.

If you think you'll have a add free FG or solo fight between 2 insta RvR keeps think again, and if you count on realm members to add when jumping a much higher realm ranked enemy of a class thats a no-go for you, consider who that realm member next to you is...

personally i will add, not add, zerg, solo and pve as i see fit... there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Find out what you want, do it and give a crap about what others do or don't do!

THAT would make FH, DAoC and the world in genreal a better place.

If I organise some PvE raids and I see a "adder" that ruined several fights for me I'd boot him from the bg f.e.

this is kindergarden mentality, grow up!

 

[Lorfo]

personally i will add, not add, zerg, solo and pve as i see fit... there is nothing anyone can do about it.

And why would I help you through the PvE grind if I know you'll ruin the rvr for me ? It's like giving a gun to a criminal when I know he'll rob me

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

And why would I help you through the PvE grind if I know you'll ruin the rvr for me ? It's like giving a gun to a criminal when I know he'll rob me

first, it's a game, there is no crime to be done.
second, it's quite possible that it would be the other part helping you thru the PvE grind the next time, and then you would not mind coming along i suppose?
and i know the perfect game for you, its called Guild Wars.
and DAoC has a good alternative for you, Camlann, where you can kill the adders.

 

[Flimgoblin]

The only way that mod behaviour could be said to be consistent, is if the FH Mods actually believe that there is no such thing as an RvR community.

You see this is the problem here, you're considering just the 8v8 "elite" to be "the RvR community" - they're not. There's more than just you playing the game.

Edit: Obviously the 8v8ers are part of the community but there's no room for them abusing people personally for adding in the same way there's no room for the zergers abusing the 8v8s for not helping out on a siege or giving personal attacks for killing them while they're xping in the frontier.

 

[Lorfo]

first, it's a game, there is no crime to be done.
second, it's quite possible that it would be the other part helping you thru the PvE grind the next time, and then you would not mind coming along i suppose?
and i know the perfect game for you, its called Guild Wars.
and DAoC has a good alternative for you, Camlann, where you can kill the adders.

adding is a crime in my eyes, and I'll do whatever I want to stop it

 

[Flimgoblin]

adding is a crime in my eyes, and I'll do whatever I want to stop it

Can do whatever you like as long as you stick within the rules. (e.g. booting someone from your raid it's your call...)

Abusing people on here is against the FH rules, abusing people in PMs is against GOA's rules.

 

[Lorfo]

Can do whatever you like as long as you stick within the rules. (e.g. booting someone from your raid it's your call...)

Abusing people on here is against the FH rules, abusing people in PMs is against GOA's rules.

yeah, booting people from raids. Pulling away from fights so the adders die. Or "steal" mobs (within coc).

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

adding is a crime in my eyes, and I'll do whatever I want to stop it

there's not much you can do, and i won't ever need you to do PvE

yeah, booting people from raids. Pulling away from fights so the adders die. Or "steal" mobs (within coc).

and that would make you a bigger dickhead than the person you are trying to punish

 

[Succi]

I somehow think certain people are failing to see the point lorfo has made


For example , somebody buying an item says he has cash on the other char, appealing to the human nature of trust and then just logs off with the item is TOTALLY within the CoC, as is adding on a fg vs fg fight in a pre designated 8v8 area

Both are equally lame , in fact I consider adding to be about 16 times worse - as thats how many more people you are screwing over

 

[Mabs]

You know you are lame when you are "adding" (from their pov)
And they know that they are lame when they "stole" the artifact(from your pov)

no, they are invariably in it for themselves
a lot of them dont care who they upset, they run around calling everyone else noobs, adders, etc, and generally being w*nkers to their realm.

THEN they come along and start telling (not asking) people to not add on their opted 16 man fights.... well, im sorry, but they can sit on it and swivel, they treat the rest of us like shit why the hell should i do something for them ?

and no im not pointing at anyone in particular, or any realm, just the mind-set of it.

and while your thinking about that, think about this
if person A *adds* on your fight.. try saying */tell xperson were trying to have to a fg v fg fight, can u please not add on it*.. rather than */tell xperson FFS you stupid cock. dont add, fucking noobs. * etc you might get a better reaction .

End of the day, i dont set out to upset peoples 8v8, but if it happens, it happens , grow up, get over it.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Both are equally lame , in fact I consider adding to be about 16 times worse - as thats how many more people you are screwing over

From my point of view you have really warped priorities

Though I guess if someone is following you around adding on your fight purely to "scam" you out of your fair fight* it's probably not exactly friendly behaviour.

Thing is most add whines (at least on here) aren't about that, it's about a group fighting 200 yards from a tower in the middle of IRvR and getting "added" on by people who are just there because it's the middle of the active RvR zone.

Intentionally scamming someone out of a load of gold is pretty obviously someone going out of their way to steal from someone else. That's pretty clear cut, most moral codes would be against that.

Running into a fight in a game based on realm warfare and killing an enemy (i.e. playing the game) isn't quite so obvious it's only when you add a less common morality of "8v8 fights are sacrosanct" that it becomes an issue.

 

[xxManiacxx]

I remember this discussion were on topic alittle while ago and it ended with that fg will just roam agramon if they want fg vs fg fights and the other ppl would just tend to stay away.

Then we have fg that go to agramon and add around anyways + they say they are a fg vs fg group tends to piss ppl off.

 

[Succi]

From my point of view you have really warped priorities

Oh so duping somebody out of gold is screwing somebody over , but going to agramon and adding on fg v fg fights isnt ?

both is wasting people's time, gold is alot more easily replaced than recreating the exact same 8v8.. with the same players and the same actions/dmg done taken before the add happened . Any idiot can see that

im really glad FH mods represent the views of the community