The paradox of Skill and RPs

[Sharkith]

<trying to avoid essay mode>
One of the most puzzling things in this game is the paradox you get when you see talk of skill combined with realm rank.

On the one had a player certainly has to, at the very least be dedicated, to achieve a high realm rank. Does this mean that they are skilled?

How can you actually judge this?

<should have made title "the paradox of skill and realm rank sowy - have been drinking" >

 

[Elrandhir]

To some degree yes, because if you are lets say RR9-10 you will have gained experience to play you'r char pretty well tbh, if not Ebayed ofc, because then you could still suck bigtime ofc.

Well that what I belive, hard to not get somewhat good at the char if you have played it long enough to be at that RR imo.

This dosent mean you have to be good in a group ofcourse, depending if you have soloed most or done much fg vs fg fights.

But as I said, the one playing a char to that RR has to have learnt enough to play him pretty well in the way he has played his char, and solo vs fg is just alitle tactic change, so I would say Yes he should be good if that high.

I guess you can only really tell by seeing how he plays.

 

[Moriatroll]

rr does not lead to skill

as previous poster said, u should learn something by getting a char to rr10, but there will allways be ppl who won't and ppl who ebay.

 

[xxManiacxx]

RR can be combined with skill and at the same time it has nothing to do about skills.

 

[Gotmagi]

There's lots of rr 10-11 ppl that got no clue at all what they're doing so no... skill is in no way shown in rr's.

 

[Vodkafairy]

rps = time invested, aswell as how efficient the rp gain has been.
time invested = knowledge and skill, but only partly.

there is very skilled low rr players and very clueless high rr ones - but i feel the number of absolute best, most sharp and most skilled players is only a very small number.

 

[Vladamir]

Look at Teamzerg and Pip & Co for ruining the correlation between skill and rps

 

[swords]

Realm rank is as VF quite rightly said an estimate of time spent in RvR. If anything realm rank has been devalued with the recent changes to the rp system so determining how skilled someone is boils down to how well they play against you and nothing else.
In the end people will disagree about who is skilled, or a zerger or whatever, others talk the talk on here but fail to produce the goods ingame and i'm sure some players are very good but dont play an awful lot or dont interact with the community here and so slip under the radar.
Personally i think being a good 'skilled' player is as much about being a friendly person ingame and out as it is about handling your character on the battlefield.
Who would you rather play against? a good enemy who doesn't bitch and moan about you on irc or rude spam your corpse etc? or a good enemy who's the first to insult you at every oportunity.

 

[illu]

I think it's all been pretty much said by the previous posters.

There is always room for improvement. Better tactics, smoothness of moving from one fighting move to another etc.. Reading the fight. Judging when to blow your Best chances at winning the fight (Battler/Purge/Malice etc.).

I think the only way to get better is to watch vids of other people playing.

High RR = Determination, lots of free time used, killed lots of people one way or another.
High Skill = People playing non-FOTM toons well from day 1 and giving people of high RR a serious fright or win. People like Kivik, Hobbit, a few solo Hib low RR NS's

I look back on my first 2 vids and they are fun, but I don't play as well as I could have. Vid 3 due soon hopefully shows a few better "skills".

It also depends a lot on Template, MLs and what I-Win buttons you have.
As has been mentioned before, I'd imagine a person who plays in a group where they don't have to be 100% alert to win, will always play poorer than a solo or group of people that every decision means life or death. There's almost a bit of a comfort cushion the more people you have in the group. Oooops I forgot to heal that guy, it's ok the other healer did it etc..

Anyway, I'm waffling now :>

Oli - Illu

 

[Kraben]

rr's does not equal skill. Its just seen upon that high rr's got skills but thats only because they get noticed more.

Some high rr's do have skills and ppl acknowledge that but its also seen that high rr's have been carried through the ranks in a set group that as a group plays well so the less skilled player didnt stand out.

The best way to see if a player has skills is by watching movie clips. Everything shows then: positioning, reactions, use of a class' abillities to its potentiel etc etc. Some of this can be hard to tell just by playing with or against someone in rvr.

Personally have I often seen movies with povs from high rr ppl who normally were described as "skilled" while they didnt use the class they played to its potentiel ie not using its abillities, moving with keyboard etc. Usally get a good laugh then.

Above said there are also lots of very nice movies around from high rr povs. Especially springs Septina and VF movies into mind as nomatter what class they play, they play it really well.

 

[censi]

i think we take for granted the "skill" in daoc.

timing positional openers from stealth.
styling well
using timers intelligently and countering timers intelligently (knowledge of opponents timers is essential)
using terrain, for los protection or to gain an advantage from safe fall
reactions
target selection
weapon swapping
intelligent qbinds and config binds
knowledge/understanding of how to maximise your class (knowledge/understanding gained from experience not fotm'isation)

asssasin tbh are "the" skill class to play. Like if u use poisons well u can kite anything, if you land your opening styles u kind of tend to win.

I like ranger in that respect though because like u cant get away with a playing like a muppet, but like for those "cough" rare times u do you have summin to fall back on.

 

[Mirt]

MMO's are about three things:

1) Free time
2) Knowledge
3) Networking skills

Rarely does "skill" come into it. If it did, a very talented new player should be able to kill a long time player of lesser skill. The only MMO that I'm aware of where that is realistically possible is Planetside, but counterstrike it is not... (less cheating in planetside, granted).

 

[Kagato]

There is no real skill in daoc, not what i'd call skill anyway.

All there is, is knowledge off the game, your class and how fast you react and apply that knowledge. Some might say that is skill, but I don't think so, all your doing is pressing a series of numbers. The rest is all knowledge you have gained over the years.

Winning in daoc is just about knowing your enemy, what that class can do and whats availible to you to counter it, its more studying and absorbing infomation. Gaining items, exping your character etc, thats just dedicating time. Its not easy, but its not 'skill' either.

Sure theres many players that deserve a great deal of respect, they have gotten the absolute most out of their class, learnt new ways to counter enemies and have dedicated alot of time and effort into the game, and I /salute them.
But are they 'skilled' ? no. They've just been willing to put the time and effort into their characters and have reaped the RP rewards for it that they deserve.*



*This naturally excludes all warlock players, bridge camping banshee's, shroom spammers and grapple bots.

 

[Phake]

What many ppl are forgetting about here is that there actually are skill in RvR and PvE in DAoC aswell as ALL computergames .. well rather all cases where humans as the main participant there is skill ..

for example in DAoC .. you have skill in doing things quickly responding to the information that coes up on the screen and acting to it accordingly with a rapid speed.

thats just one example of many .. another one would be tactics .. ok .. you can call it knowlage .. but tactics is a skill in DAoC aswll as it is in football or hockey. i KNOW that there are still development in this area .. its not the same tactics used today as 4-5 months ago .. and thats coz the game changes .. and the fact that some ppl think of new strategies and teamplay to help them out in fights... and these ppl are skilled in that matter...

anyways .. skill is an important factor in DAoC ..

though the relationship of skill and RR is an entirely different thing ..

 

[Vodkafairy]

if there'd be no skill in daoc, the majority of players would all be equal in terms of effectiveness. they're not.

its very easy to point out some players who are just so much better then anyone else playing the same class, even if its the same rr and in the same gear as others.

i really cannot comprehend that people say there is no skill in daoc, its really beyond retarded. maybe in 1v1 fights it has minimal impact, but atleast in group rvr the difference is insane.

just think of 10 different people all from the same class and you will be able to say who is best.

the points censi missed are these:

- ability to communicate well on vent
- ability to think for the entire group and play according to that, saying what you need others to do on vent
- positioning positioning positioning

 

[Train]

just think of 10 different people all from the same class and you will be able to say who is best.

Ravenloc, Arumi, Ioulia, Waim, Hiz, Hardnuker, Dubslock, Cainez, Jabba, Wurlock...

Sorry VF, I fail

 

[Raven]

rr and skill have nothing to do with one another, half the RR10+ players are utterly clueless. in the same way some low RR players are very tough fights.

 

[Elrandhir]

rps = time invested, aswell as how efficient the rp gain has been.
time invested = knowledge and skill, but only partly.

there is very skilled low rr players and very clueless high rr ones - but i feel the number of absolute best, most sharp and most skilled players is only a very small number.

Well usually the low rrers that are skilled usually have other chars being higher RR =P

I say that usually when someone has played for a longer time he will get rather good at whatever, depending what he has done when playing, still he will be good at what he has done usually.

Well if someone are cluless at RR10 as I have seen posted, well then they are Ebayed or ororororo I dunno =P because getting to that RR you should have became rather well at what you do tbh.

 

[Vodkafairy]

Ravenloc, Arumi, Ioulia, Waim, Hiz, Hardnuker, Dubslock, Cainez, Jabba, Wurlock...

Sorry VF, I fail

lol

was going to write some comparisons between good and great players but would be boosting ego's too much so i won't!

 

[Kagato]

methinks some people are just confusing knowledge and understanding with skill to be honest.

Anyone can press the correct style back ups as good as the next person, but some people simply know the better specs, templates and what to expect the other class to do. Its knowledge, not skill, skill is being able to play the piano, skill is being able to to score in the world cup, knowing what will give you the best chance to win vs class XXX in daoc is not skill, just experiance. Some people obviously just want to boost their ego's and feel they are good at something

 

[Arid|Disci]

i think we take for granted the "skill" in daoc.


asssasin tbh are "the" skill class to play. Like if u use poisons well u can kite anything, if you land your opening styles u kind of tend to win.

completely disagree

I think 1vs1 is probably easiest thing in this game, you can play perfect and still lose... due to others having more luck / procs / whatever
...so sure there is a difference in skilled stealthers and noobs but
in 8v8 the chance that the grp who played best wins is alot bigger.

 

[Eleasias]

haha how utterly 1v1 biased can you be kagato? you've never played fg vs fg so how can you even comment on it? same goes for censi (or do we count 8 stealthers as a roaming full group now?) yes indeed, everyone can mostly agree that theres hardly any skill in 2 heavy tanks pressing 2 styles on stick for 10 minutes and see who wins. i can easily spot the difference who is more skilled and who is not after playing with people a couple times in fg's, and some stand out as so much better i refuse to even group anyone else in that spot.

oh yeah and rp's have nothing to do with skill

 

[Arid|Disci]

and some stand out as so much better i refuse to even group anyone else in that spot.

such elitist ! :d

 

[Raven]

methinks some people are just confusing knowledge and understanding with skill to be honest.

Anyone can press the correct style back ups as good as the next person, but some people simply know the better specs, templates and what to expect the other class to do. Its knowledge, not skill, skill is being able to play the piano, skill is being able to to score in the world cup, knowing what will give you the best chance to win vs class XXX in daoc is not skill, just experiance. Some people obviously just want to boost their ego's and feel they are good at something

you just defined skill.

skill Show phonetics
noun [C or U]
an ability to do an activity or job well, especially because you have practised it:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=74139&dict=CALD

 

[Slayn]

the points censi missed are these:

- ability to communicate well on vent
- ability to think for the entire group and play according to that, saying what you need others to do on vent
- positioning positioning positioning

The three things listed there are also in my mind the three most important things in fg rvr.

The other stuff, like selecting right styles/spells, having nice gear, reacting quickly to engage, that's all just fluff really. It yields marginal improvements but nothing like the gain you get from getting done the three things that VF lists.

Another thing I notice, is there are lots of very technically good players, who are much less useful because they fail on at least two of those three things. It can often be because a char is very technically proficient that they think they are 'above' having to communicate things on vent because they they think the other players should be perfect and know it without being told.

Examples of this are mages who don't bother calling a target for nukes because they *expect* they support-nuker to assist them every time. People not calling for BG when they need it because they *expect* the BG'er to have seen it no matter where he is in fight/what he's doing. Also you get light tanks that *expect* perfect healing in fights and qq about dying rather than asking for pre-healing on vent when debuffed or simply Charge3'ing out.

All of the above is stuff that skilled players do, but that hurts their group far more than them missing the odd nuke/assist/mez or whatever. This is why I prefer to play with ppl with less ego and also notice a very pleasant improvement in play when I do.

Imo, the golden rule for anyone running a gg and using vent should be: 'never qq about not getting something after a fight, that you could have asked for during the fight'.

 

[Raven]

haha how utterly 1v1 biased can you be kagato? you've never played fg vs fg so how can you even comment on it? same goes for censi (or do we count 8 stealthers as a roaming full group now?) yes indeed, everyone can mostly agree that theres hardly any skill in 2 heavy tanks pressing 2 styles on stick for 10 minutes and see who wins. i can easily spot the difference who is more skilled and who is not after playing with people a couple times in fg's, and some stand out as so much better i refuse to even group anyone else in that spot.

so why then do FG'ers who try soloing, more often than not get farmed? they are two different play styles, both need there own set of skills to win. knowing what a class has, knowing what works best vs them, when to use RAs/MLs, knowing your oponants playstyle etc. in a fg a mistake made doesnt always effect the fight, if you fuck up in 1v1 you are dead.

 

[Eleasias]

so why then do FG'ers who try soloing, more often than not get farmed? they are two different play styles, both need there own set of skills to win. knowing what a class has, knowing what works best vs them, when to use RAs/MLs, knowing your oponants playstyle etc. in a fg a mistake made doesnt always effect the fight, if you fuck up in 1v1 you are dead.

that's probably more to do with specs and templates than anything else

 

[Slayn]

A separate point I'd like to make is that one of the reaaaaally nice things about daoc is that, as you play different classes, you find vastly different things are required of you.

An interesting example is the bard class where your role means that although you are leading group, and do need to give instructions, you're actually quite isolated from group when it comes to the actual fights.

By this I mean that most fights a bard only worries about himself and the enemy, he does mez, gets up end, does his interrupts and the odd demezz. He doesn't need to assist ever, hardly ever calls for BG, doesn't worry about keeping in range for heals like light tanks. There are all these sides of communication and teamwork that bard doesn't actually get involved in once the fights starts. It is imo the most isolated role in a hib group, I think midgard pac healer is probably quite similar.

I can think of examples of people who make great bards because of this, and equally, have real problems playing other classes because of the adjustment required to taking on all this stuff and relying on other people in group. So they play a light-tank or caster and really struggle because they feel things like coordinating damage should 'just happen' and don't want to 'lower' themselves to having to communicate it on vent.

I feel always far more confident playing my hero because I like the thing of relying on people and using them for stuff and them using you in fights. On bard it often gets lonely as well as very frustrating when you see your group failing to do this, but because of your role, there's no way of turning that around.

On the other hand, you play bard you learn a lot about leadership. For example, how it's important to make a decision, uh, decisively and clearly to your group. How you can't dawdle wondering about the 'best choice' because often you try and take 5 seconds to make up your mind and it's already too late. This was sooooo against my nature when first playing bard and you really do need to change yourself as a person to fill the role. The fact that that can happen in a game is quite impressive.

 

[ebenezer]

There is no real skill in daoc, not what i'd call skill anyway.

All there is, is knowledge off the game, your class and how fast you react and apply that knowledge. Some might say that is skill, but I don't think so, all your doing is pressing a series of numbers. The rest is all knowledge you have gained over the years.

Winning in daoc is just about knowing your enemy, what that class can do and whats availible to you to counter it, its more studying and absorbing infomation. Gaining items, exping your character etc, thats just dedicating time. Its not easy, but its not 'skill' either.

Sure theres many players that deserve a great deal of respect, they have gotten the absolute most out of their class, learnt new ways to counter enemies and have dedicated alot of time and effort into the game, and I /salute them.
But are they 'skilled' ? no. They've just been willing to put the time and effort into their characters and have reaped the RP rewards for it that they deserve.*



*This naturally excludes all warlock players, bridge camping banshee's, shroom spammers and grapple bots.

agree with this tbh Its all about dedication and knowledge and speed of reaction. if im tired sometimes(which happends quite often in game) i may loose a fight quite clearly cause im not focused...especially since im solo a lot.
i played my hero a long long time with different equippment etc, But i was never dedicated to read too much in beginning. I always been lasy about that, i rather play and learn the character that way. I still feel like a noob sometimes about some stuff just cause i just cba to study a thing like daoc too much...for me its a hobby not a job/education.
I would say you get certain experience/knowledge that help you play ur character better in some situastions since you seen them before.Skill i have a heard time aplying to a game tbh, sine you only use ur hands i same manner Sure you can say you got computer skills maybe. I trained thaiboxing for 12 years, and in a sport like that/or any sport that is physical you can really see the difference between a skilled boxer and a non skilled one. there its a combination between reactiontime/knowledge(spent hour in gym/speaking with trainers etc)and pure talent which have a big big impact as well. you can see some boxers never get any good or can come to a certain point but never get across that. in daoc you can actually study ur character and also increase ur rr in ways that doesnt give you any skill imo.
thats just what i think
over and out..

 

[Cylian]

Skill while soloing mattered before Style-queueing was in. Now it's more down to how lucky you get with the RNG and if your timered abilities are up when you need them. Not like it's going to help, if you know that Ability #143 would swing the fight around for you, when the game keeps telling you that you have to wait another 15seconds to do so.

The good thing about soloing is, you can play when you want, you can go afk when you want and no one's going to make you wait for something, nor do you make people wait for you.