The paradox of Skill and RPs

[Vodkafairy]

so why then do FG'ers who try soloing, more often than not get farmed? they are two different play styles, both need there own set of skills to win. knowing what a class has, knowing what works best vs them, when to use RAs/MLs, knowing your oponants playstyle etc. in a fg a mistake made doesnt always effect the fight, if you fuck up in 1v1 you are dead.

err, many people who play in fg's are or have been very good soloers. that comment is just beyond silly really

there are so many more factors in 8v8 that decide a win compared to a 1v1. on my scout, playing perfect means starting with the right style (side asd), or a nice critshot, rest of the fight is just a sequence of using the right styles and abilities at the right time.

after the initial preparation of equipment and having charges up, the actual fights are quite straightforward. the one thing that adds a huge dimension to the fight is using movement. strafing, runthrough and the countering of those are for a large part dependant on how well the other is able to move, use game mechanics and time it. there is no optimal sequence to move around, it varies in every fight and depends on every player.

there is however an optimal sequence of hitting styles and abilities. its easily possible to counter every ability correctly, and use all styles correctly, but still lose. this is due to the large impact of class difference, equipment and various other abilities.

i would say doing the right things in a 1v1 fight is a direct display of the skills of a player, especially if one person controls movement better, but still you are missing the key factors i mentioned earlier:

positioning, communication and ability to think for other people.

in a 8v8 fight you can use all styles the right way, hit all abilities at the right time, but there are still a million things that can go wrong. for example:

- positioning
- communication
- ability to counter or use melee lag

in a 8v8 you can't stick someone and use shit. positioning is extremely important, i could say so much about it but id say its quite obvious. if you're at the wrong spot you die, and where you are standing or moving to is dependant on 15 other players and many other factors. it proves to be VERY hard to be at the right position for most players. > this is not a factor in 1v1 fights, in any way, except to avoid adds.

next to that, you play with 7 other people. you need them, they need you. here's a few factors that are important when playing with those, none of which apply to 1v1's:

- making sure you are in range when you ask for something, cures or buffs for example. wasting their time running all over the fight to help you puts your support and entire group in danger
- making sure to listen and look carefully when your support has time to give you what you need. its their job to prioritise, but if you KNOW they have more important things to do then you have to wait a bit, and then ask.
- making sure what you do is always what the group knows you are doing, if exceptions, mention it. if you are pushing forward on another group and some people get rooted, its a must to stop pushing and wait it out. if your main source of interrupts is disabled, it has to be mentioned so other people take over.
- think for the people who play with you directly. melee MA should call which type of assist he needed: caster (for targets bg'd or otherwise unhittable with melee), melee (if the caster was easily hittable, needed the champ to snare/stun the target, etc). also, if there was no point in assisting (many mages free, banelords down, enemies too spread out, bof active, etc) there was a call to split up train. next to that, against bd's for example, staj would qc a matter debuff and tanks would swap to matter legendary. that can only be done through good communication, that involves 4 people (2 tanks, debuffer + second mage)

casters in a group always need to know what the others are currently doing and what they are capable of. knowing if the other is interrupted, oop, debuffed in some way, their position, etc, is extremely important.

- 'basic' things: saying when a target is buffsheared, saying who is interrupted, saying who needs help with pets, saying which target is cc'd, saying which pet is on which enemy, saying when you are going to need heals, etccccccccccccc

there is so much more, but i think you get the point. ill promise you that if i slap you awake in the middle of the night you can rattle up all the values that decide a win or loss in 1v1, but if you would try do the same for 8v8, you would be at it for hours and still forget stuff.

sorry for the long post - yes, i am quite bored.

 

[Frozodo]

1vs1 take alot of skills and yes i played fg vs fg and i do play mostly 1vs1 now, lets say infy or sb get first hit ( pa ) it is down to ur skill to turn the cards around so u get the upper hand and end up winning same goes for fg vs fg even tho u get mezzed you can still win it isnt bout how we do stuff it is bout how u flip the coin. You can start with the upper hand and lose or u can start with having a shit start and win that goes for 1vs1 and fg vs fg.

 

[noaim]

methinks some people are just confusing knowledge and understanding with skill to be honest.

Anyone can press the correct style back ups as good as the next person, but some people simply know the better specs, templates and what to expect the other class to do. Its knowledge, not skill, skill is being able to play the piano, skill is being able to to score in the world cup, knowing what will give you the best chance to win vs class XXX in daoc is not skill, just experiance. Some people obviously just want to boost their ego's and feel they are good at something

Noone ever considered it to be skilled to stand still, hit 2-3 styles and use warguard or battler when needed, so dont worry about that.

 

[Raven]

to much!

i didnt mean there was more or less skill involved in 8v8 vs 1v1, i said there were 2 completly different play styles and to dismiss one as having no skill involved is kind of silly.
i stand by my comment about a decent proportion (not all) 8v8'ers who try their hand at solo lose badly, likewise most soloers who try 8v8 dont do all that well. ofc part of this is down to equipment, but my equipment probably isnt that different from an 8v8 hero, i probably carry a wider variety of weapons with me but thats probably about it.
RAs will ofc be completly different, but anyone who is having a go at solo would have respecced their RAs first.

not trying to insult peoples e-peens here btw, just adding to the discussion

 

[Vodkafairy]

i stand by my comment about a decent proportion (not all) 8v8'ers who try their hand at solo lose badly, likewise most soloers who try 8v8 dont do all that well. ofc part of this is down to equipment, but my equipment probably isnt that different from an 8v8 hero, i probably carry a wider variety of weapons with me but thats probably about it.

well, i completely disagree. too many examples to even begin mentioning them.

 

[Succi]

good 8v8ers are often good solo'ers , but after being in a FG i feel they get even more so annoyed at being so helpless to stop/deal with adds. At least with 8v8 you have a chance at 10v8 16v8 50v8 etc.


IMO mates

 

[Kagato]

haha how utterly 1v1 biased can you be kagato? you've never played fg vs fg so how can you even comment on it? same goes for censi (or do we count 8 stealthers as a roaming full group now?) yes indeed, everyone can mostly agree that theres hardly any skill in 2 heavy tanks pressing 2 styles on stick for 10 minutes and see who wins. i can easily spot the difference who is more skilled and who is not after playing with people a couple times in fg's, and some stand out as so much better i refuse to even group anyone else in that spot.

oh yeah and rp's have nothing to do with skill

Sorry but seriously, what the fuck are you on about?

I made absolutely no distinction between solo OR fg in any of my posts thus far. I only talked about skill and knowledge in RvR in general, I never mentioned soloing or 8 v 8 or any other specific kind of playing, so what the hell are you on about? Do you actually read the posts before you try and judge them?

Secondly, what the hell do you know about how I play or when I group? Don't pretend that you know me lol, I usually group every other weekend depending on what shifts im working and have done plenty of 8 v 8, I just don't don't make a big deal out of it.

Noone ever considered it to be skilled to stand still, hit 2-3 styles and use warguard or battler when needed, so dont worry about that.

A spiritmaster judging 'skill' ? oh how rich lol. I suppose moc life tapping with 100% intercept pet requires more skill.

 

[pip]

Look at Teamzerg and Pip & Co for ruining the correlation between skill and rps

Lie Im a good boy but if you want to no what skill looks like you are looking at it

 

[Tuthmes]

You should define "skill" in the daoc sense first, before you continue. Skill is not all about how good you are in killing other players or beeing able to keep your group alive, atleast not for some people. The thing is most people tend to forget is daoc is not "just" a fps, its a mmorph.

 

[Eregion]

It is imo the most isolated role in a hib group, I think midgard pac healer is probably quite similar.

To some degree, bad communication between aughealer and pac results in dead grp mostly.

 

[duact]

real skill is measured by how many towers you have taken

 

[noaim]

A spiritmaster judging 'skill' ? oh how rich lol. I suppose moc life tapping with 100% intercept pet requires more skill.

Now you assume that I have moc and 100% intercept pet. Try again mr Anytime.

 

[ebenezer]

Lie Im a good boy but if you want to no what skill looks like you are looking at it

heheh...i can do nothing but laugh bit fondly when i see ur posts pip)

 

[Kagato]

Now you assume that I have moc and 100% intercept pet. Try again mr Anytime.

Thats Mr Reactionary thankyou very much :touch:

 

[Zede]

I duo'd with some guy from Apocalypse Dudes the other day( canna remeber his name !), he was only rr3, but i tell ya id rather have him in my grp than your average rr7 sorc

skill >RAs

 

[Mirt]

"stand by my comment about a decent proportion (not all) 8v8'ers who try their hand at solo lose badly,"

Well for melee that's obvious though. Specs, RAs and templates for 8v8 are usually gimped solo. If you're a light tank on interrupt duty* you don't exactly care about +parry, and IP isn't really needed unless you're intentionally running out of heal range (and lets face it, if you go well out of heal range, you're gonna get pwned regardless). Finally all those points spent on det4-5 don't help at all solo...

* it's sad that light tanks are reduced to interrupt duty. I wonder why people don't run more vamps, they're better than BMs than interrupting, and with the right spec they're not particularly squishy

 

[Puppet]

Now you assume that I have moc and 100% intercept pet. Try again mr Anytime.

The pet intercepts about 70% only

Ofcourse, thats enough to have an almost guaranteed I-win versus non-dualwielders, simply because after 2 successfull intercepts from a non-dualwielder, you should be able to cast atleast 2, possibly 3 lifetaps. With 90% hp return, you need to be particularly unlucky.

Ofcourse there's still a short duration mezz and a long duration root at your disposal, which should make sure you can atleast get some distance between you and your enemy, and most likely enough to give you 3-4 more lifetaps.

And if stuff really goes fubar, u can always kite and let the ML9 pet do the work

Spiritmaster IS easy-mode for soloing, atleast against visible tank-classes.

 

[Sharkith]

there are some really good points here that I certainly had not thought of but let me put it another way.

The game rewards you for time by giving you Rps. As some of you have said you gain experience and get kind of better although this does not mean you are necessarily a skilled player. This I agree with. A paradox is nothing more than an entangled hierarcy where you mix two values together and kind of get weird combinations.

Ok so my point is this. Technically as you progress through the game you are learning your class but the game rewards you by giving you so many overpowered abilities that in fact who is to say you are actually not getting worse?

I could argue that in fact high RR players are nothing more than in semi retirement from the competitive game since at the end of the day the cards are stacked in their favour. Basically once you get so many abilities you have become an easy moder. I am teasing but can you see my point?

 

[Marcus75]

Time put into this game is rewarded in alot more than realmpoints, ML's, Artifacts, Templates (money), Champion abilities and whatnot - they all lead to RPs in the end sure but the best player ingame might be someone who dosnt have the time to get all these things and he would still loose most fights solo vs someone who has the time to do all this....and that applies to FG fights too.

Still....FG vs FG then skill plays a more important role than it ever will in solo fights imo.

 

[raid]

Its true that 1v1 and fg is completely different game, and being good in 1 of them doesnt mean one would do any good in the other... I used to solo a lot back in the days when Talivar still played! Both 1v1 and grp rvr have evolved a lot the last couple of years and think I'd be really terrible soloer now.

However, having always played group rvr too, I'd say without a doubt it always has and always will require way way more than 1v1. Like mentioned earlier theres just so much more factors in a fg fight. Ofc individual play is still pushing the right buttons the right time, but in group fights thats only a minor part of the whole picture.

RR = skill? no, definitely not. Imo how well you perform (as individual) is combination of experience, "skill" and the abilities available. Gaining higher RR brings both experience and abilities, so ofc "rightfully" a well played high RR > well played low RR.

 

[Konah]

like vf said, pick a class, think of the 1-3 players of that class who impressed u the most when u played with or against them and there is your skill. some ppl have good or bad days, some only seem to have good days, there too is your skill.

as for "some low rr's > high rr's" how many new players do u think this game gets these days? how many of those rr3-5's that impressed you in a 1v1 or 8v8 are the 6th toa'd alt of some rr10-11 player who plays all 3 realms or 3-4+ servers?

some ppl are cool under pressure, some react faster, some read situations better, some spend more time tuning thier interface, some spend more time farming items/money for a good suit, some have a better more in-depth knowledge of the game and both the classes they play and play against. these are all manifestations of skill imo. dedication can make someone a decent player or high rr but u cant learn natural talent at something. just like u cant learn to be an artist, you either are or are not.

 

[Samaroon|Terracotta]

Lie Im a good boy but if you want to no what skill looks like you are looking at it

The internet? The monitor?

THE INTAHNET IS THE SKILL!

 

[Elrandhir]

The pet intercepts about 70% only

Ofcourse, thats enough to have an almost guaranteed I-win versus non-dualwielders, simply because after 2 successfull intercepts from a non-dualwielder, you should be able to cast atleast 2, possibly 3 lifetaps. With 90% hp return, you need to be particularly unlucky.

Ofcourse there's still a short duration mezz and a long duration root at your disposal, which should make sure you can atleast get some distance between you and your enemy, and most likely enough to give you 3-4 more lifetaps.

And if stuff really goes fubar, u can always kite and let the ML9 pet do the work

Spiritmaster IS easy-mode for soloing, atleast against visible tank-classes.

Wouldent even be fun playing that class 1 vs 1 tbh, maby for awhile as I guess it's cool winning, but well SM and sorc is just silly and prolly the most skilless classes 1 vs 1 imo.

 

[noaim]

The pet intercepts about 70% only

Ofcourse, thats enough to have an almost guaranteed I-win versus non-dualwielders, simply because after 2 successfull intercepts from a non-dualwielder, you should be able to cast atleast 2, possibly 3 lifetaps. With 90% hp return, you need to be particularly unlucky.

Ofcourse there's still a short duration mezz and a long duration root at your disposal, which should make sure you can atleast get some distance between you and your enemy, and most likely enough to give you 3-4 more lifetaps.

And if stuff really goes fubar, u can always kite and let the ML9 pet do the work

Spiritmaster IS easy-mode for soloing, atleast against visible tank-classes.

But then again I only play in fg´s so I usually dont have 1 2h-user on me, so if your post was directed to me I dont see any point with it. Is it more skillful to face someone and press reactionary+anytime, because another class is just as easy in 1 vs 1? Or where are you going?

Also what you just described still requires alot more than to press 2 styles, so even if sm would have a higher chance of winning than many other classes, I´d still say a heavy tank is easier to play in a 1 on 1.

 

[ebenezer]

But then again I only play in fg´s so I usually dont have 1 2h-user on me, so if your post was directed to me I dont see any point with it. Is it more skillful to face someone and press reactionary+anytime, because another class is just as easy in 1 vs 1? Or where are you going?

Also what you just described still requires alot more than to press 2 styles, so even if sm would have a higher chance of winning than many other classes, I´d still say a heavy tank is easier to play in a 1 on 1.

i have never played an sm. But i would say all casters i played (bainshee, chanter. eld) are easier then tanks. Its a joke at times tbh....at least the eld have some utility so you have to think instead of just face and nuke

 

[Kagato]

Also what you just described still requires alot more than to press 2 styles, so even if sm would have a higher chance of winning than many other classes, I´d still say a heavy tank is easier to play in a 1 on 1.

Thats because all of what he described is the excessive amount of ways in which an SM (not necessarily your spec but a SM in general) can easily win without having to so much as even struggle. Sure there might be more buttons to press, but each of those buttons is an 'I win' button by any definition.

I have just as many buttons to press on my quickbars that I use in fights, but non of them come anywhere near as close to being an 'I win' button, in groups or solo. As for styles I doubt theres many meleers here with less then 5 or 6 styles on their quickbars.

 

[Konah]

but non of them come anywhere near as close to being an 'I win' button.

warguard? ponder

 

[Jeriraa]

Am I skilled?

 

[ebenezer]

warguard? ponder

lol...not really a win button It makes you last a bit longer for a while, but you still have to fight the whole fight out. not like pressing nuke nuke die.

 

[Kagato]

warguard? ponder

hahah, i'd of expected you to say something a little more wiser then that konah, you know as well as I do how limited warguard is, its no where near an iwin button. Its not even as good as OF soldiers barricade.