The nerfbat swings... and hits.... the theurgists

[Gibbo]

I think they have just made a Theurg who specs full Earth better than they were. Theurgs are going to have to be a bit more careful with their pets and they won't be able to spam them on keep doors or in pve encounters but apart from that the 2 new nukes are very nice additions.

Only on patch B though, remains to be seen what else they do.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

They needed a bit of a nerf, this isnt it. End of story for me. You could make seperate arguments for other classes being overpowered but that isnt justification for the theurg also being overpowered.

No, it is an indication that most of it is whine. If everybody is whining about this or that being OP it's whine.

You say the range is so high, I said amensia and nearsight, that is two people in a group at least that have higher range. Then the pets have a travel time and they don't travel invisible. Some argument are like there are no choices but to die when a Theurg is in an Alb group.

Kiting doesn't work as it used to do back in the day with the strong speed warps. There is one brittle guard now, an extended melee range and melee classes which can use instas while running after you.

Every BG'ed caster can be a pain in the ass.

Every uninterrupted damage caster or interrupter can be a pain in the ass.

Locking a group down with a Theurg or two and then synchronizing the other group members to push to take a benefit from it isn't that easy as it sounds, it's not like one Theurg can take a group out on his own, but yes, he can be a major decisive factor, like any other class.

Most of the whine comes prolly from guys with low spirit resists who got nuked by Air Theurgs too much.

For me the nerf is reasonable as maybe some of the lag that is coming from Ice pets in RvR will be gone now, in PvE they should left things as they were.

When they fix Sorc's matter line you will see Matter over Mind Sorcs with Matter debuff and Earth Wizards and Earth Theurgs - with high level earth pets and matter based snare nukes and high delve dots.

Sometimes all the tweaking and nerfing is just useless as it simply creates new unbalanced things.

 

[noaim]

It really is incredibly amazing that someone who knows so little can think that he knows so much. And when the rest of the world tells him that he is wrong, he isnt, they are. Amazing.

 

[Golena]

If we could get away from throwing random insults around for just the 2 seconds (probably not I guess) then you lot of idiots might be able to agree that against good FG's the chance to 16 pets makes zero difference because you won't get over 16 out.

The 2 new nukes while (cool) really also add very little to the theurg. Last theurg spec post was filled with the same "I'm so fooking leet" guys saying if you don't spec 45 air, 21, 21 for 8v8 your an IRL retard. Is a low damage nuke and aoe nuke going to change this? I somehow doubt it so it's actually a lack of nerf or love just staying the same.

I've played against theurgs a fair bit and well played ones can cause utter havok. That's true of most classes however if you don't counter them correctly tho. It's no different to how a good nearsighter can destroy a group if you don't bother curing it.
Where theurgs are properly overpowered is against noobs that don't clear the pets. I'm sure everyone that's posted in this thread would rather blow their own brains out than post "i'm a noob and can't clear pets" however so that's not an issue is it!
I'd actually agree that pets should be limited to lower range tho (probably over 1500, maybe 1700?) because they are overpowered. Why, not for any reason you've posted so far, but because 90% of the people actually playing arn't competing in good set groups in the situation where theurgs destroy the enemy. Animists had their pets reduced to nothingness because they could be dumped in keeps with the animist completely safe. Remove that from theurgs completely by reducing pets to 1700ish and it's not an issue anymore.

Lets not even bother whining about PvE. There's no PvE that "required" petspam left worth doing anymore. About all it's going to effect is the ability to petspam to Apoc in 30 minutes, but since no sidi raid has got more than 12 people actually attending it in the last year, who gives a crap!

 

[preacherboy]

Glad to see they will soon stop em from bashing keep gates and will be nice if they make there pets smaller so you can target em? tbh as a caster thats well played normally the first 1 to get the jump should win end of

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

It really is incredibly amazing that someone who knows so little can think that he knows so much. And when the rest of the world tells him that he is wrong, he isnt, they are. Amazing.

Sadly you are not rest of the world. Maybe want to look in the mirror for once.

(Glad I helped you out with some knowledge about basic stuff like CL AoE spells in the general section.)

 

[Septima]

@manisch
I don't know how after so many patches and "nerfs", "adjustments" and "love" to certain classes you can still be surprised that mythic hears the whine of VNboards. They've been doing this since day one: it's called "players feedback" ^^
I can admit they are most of the times VERY slow to awnser it...

And someone change this thread title it's, like 90% of the players already said, love, earth theurgh love, but still theurgh love!

 

[noaim]

Sadly you are not rest of the world. Maybe want to look in the mirror for once.

(Glad I helped you out with some knowledge about basic stuff like CL AoE spells in the general section.)

Yeah, too bad you didnt realise that an ae nuke on a theurg is way better than any of those. And did I imagine where everyone else, including people who play theurgists, agrees that they need a nerf, and this wasnt a nerf?

So that means that chimps are even more OP now? Or is Champ RR5 AF based?

Speaking of basic stuff

 

[Muylaetrix]

anyone thought about the fact that that last AE nuke is the same delve as the fire ae nuke, but matter instead of heat damage, making it albions most damaging ranged AE spell there is ?

defo theurg and albion loving when it comes to AE damage... i can not imagine the will keep that delve...

also, i am not sure if the rr5 and the pets and the brittle guard all count towards the 16 pet limit.

i asume there will further adjustments before this patch goes live.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Speaking of basic stuff

A question. Just like your "No expert on the CL lines but I though casters couldnt get CL nukes." You just missed the question mark.

Casters can get CL nukes, Cabbies and Sorcs can get elemental CL line. A Theurg an AoE dot from mage line (not sure if it affects Zorkat pets though).

"An ae nuke for albs to kill zo´arkat pets will be very useful in fg rvr."

Basicly you say you didn't play against a proper group at all in the last time or you would have seen some Clerics and co clearing out Zorkat pets with CL PBAoE/AoE nukes if needed.

So full of yourself it hurts. But yeah, you're the rest of the knowing world .

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

anyone thought about the fact that that last AE nuke is the same delve as the fire ae nuke, but matter instead of heat damage, making it albions most damaging ranged AE spell there is ?

defo theurg and albion loving when it comes to AE damage... i can not imagine the will keep that delve...

also, i am not sure if the rr5 and the pets and the brittle guard all count towards the 16 pet limit.

i asume there will further adjustments before this patch goes live.

Check the Heretic's bonuses and some Pendragon tests. Being nuked for over 2k seems like they are on top of the food chain in regards of AoE damage .

Your argument is a bit flawed - it's based on people who choose to gimp their resists.

 

[Carss]

It aint worth argueing with this idiot, for reasons already said.

But seriously if you have even watched videos against albion groups, you think its fair that one class can be the cause of so many problems..... so much time spent dealing with pets, and if you let them get out of control for just a second it can be even worse. The fact only albion can really kite because if you try to extend vs an albion group you get completely fucked by range. Its ok because we got nearsight yeh? every realm gets nearsight, and it gets cured unless your support is afk.

Turn the mentalist and bonedancer class into a thuergist equivalent and see how much you cry is all i can say.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

It aint worth argueing with this idiot, for reasons already said.

But seriously if you have even watched videos against albion groups, you think its fair that one class can be the cause of so many problems..... so much time spent dealing with pets, and if you let them get out of control for just a second it can be even worse. The fact only albion can really kite because if you try to extent vs an albion group you get completely fucked by range. Its ok because we got nearsight yeh? every realm gets nearsight.

Turn the mentalist and bonedancer class into a thuergist equivalent and see how much you cry is all i can say.

You are right, there were no fights where very strong Albion groups have been beaten who had an suberb Theurgist who didn't fuck up.

Also, no other realms ever kited and Theurgs can also cast pets while kiting now.

Same for the bad dreams about all the Theurgs who turned around fights on their own in just 1 second.

I pray for forgiveness, your "arguing" and "reasons" truly made me change my mind.

 

[Cromcruaich]

No, it is an indication that most of it is whine. If everybody is whining about this or that being OP it's whine.

You say the range is so high, I said amensia and nearsight, that is two people in a group at least that have higher range. Then the pets have a travel time and they don't travel invisible. Some argument are like there are no choices but to die when a Theurg is in an Alb group.

Kiting doesn't work as it used to do back in the day with the strong speed warps. There is one brittle guard now, an extended melee range and melee classes which can use instas while running after you.

Every BG'ed caster can be a pain in the ass.

Every uninterrupted damage caster or interrupter can be a pain in the ass.

Locking a group down with a Theurg or two and then synchronizing the other group members to push to take a benefit from it isn't that easy as it sounds, it's not like one Theurg can take a group out on his own, but yes, he can be a major decisive factor, like any other class.

Most of the whine comes prolly from guys with low spirit resists who got nuked by Air Theurgs too much.

For me the nerf is reasonable as maybe some of the lag that is coming from Ice pets in RvR will be gone now, in PvE they should left things as they were.

When they fix Sorc's matter line you will see Matter over Mind Sorcs with Matter debuff and Earth Wizards and Earth Theurgs - with high level earth pets and matter based snare nukes and high delve dots.

Sometimes all the tweaking and nerfing is just useless as it simply creates new unbalanced things.

Unfortunately amnesia isnt a true interupt and it isnt spammable. It just cancels the current cast, even if resisted (contrary to the rumour mill). That stops them getting pets out for about 3 seconds while they recast im afraid. There are only 2 controls that work at the same range, ns and bainshee taunt.

They really are overpowered, just because they can be controlled by a good group who knows what they are doing doesnt make them any less overpowered. But I know we aint gonna get anywhere on this, could moan about the stuns with no immunity etc, but whats the point. Oh, maeloch was out killing solo l50s when he was l30 on his rog theurg. In fg rvr, they are one of the most powerful casters in the game, next to, oh - the sorc. Please tell me what casters you rate as equal or more over powered from an enemy realm and explain why.

 

[Cromcruaich]

If we could get away from throwing random insults around for just the 2 seconds (probably not I guess) then you lot of idiots might be able to agree

Oh m8, thats signature material. rofl.

 

[Coldbeard]

yay, in your face 2 theurg moc on inc german grps!

 

[Carss]

You dont actually have an arguement to why thuergs should be allowed to have somthing that is extremely powerful that no other realm has. But as you said yourself its oh so easy to deal with although you have never done it yourself? maybe you can trade you account AGAIN to experience this one for the first time?

Like you said before, along comes another albion joke class in the form of the heretic, just incase the thuerg does get nerfed later on this patch, gj mythicon

 

[Carss]

Please tell me what casters you rate as equal or more over powered from an enemy realm and explain why.

Refer back to VN board whine which has probabaly for the first time ever worked AGAINST an albion class this patch. OH MY GOD HOW CAN THEY DO THIS ?!?!?!??! they cannot listen to whine on VN! Sure nps, lets go unnerf the animist, bainshee, rangers, bd, savage, zerk, sb, healers and all the other nerfs...... fair trade imo!

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

They really are overpowered, just because they can be controlled by a good group who knows what they are doing doesnt make them any less overpowered. But I know we aint gonna get anywhere on this, could moan about the stuns with no immunity etc, but whats the point. Oh, maeloch was out killing solo l50s when he was l30 on his rog theurg. In fg rvr, they are one of the most powerful casters in the game, next to, oh - the sorc. Please tell me what casters you rate as equal or more over powered from an enemy realm and explain why.

I am not sure one should bring it down to the point where one compares casters just among them self and has a proper discussion which reflects what happens when two groups fight. Sorc is an ace caster, but Mids and Hibs seem to have better support classes.

Still there is no one holy way to play and spec your class.

You speak about chain stunning, I think that is a big issue. As well as that RR5 or ST resetting stun immunity or Healers having access to mezz, root and stun or fixed length melee stun durations that are I-win.

I _don't_ think that the changes are _not_ justified, the Theurg really is a nice class and can take some nerfing. I don't consider the Earth line love a major boost, it's a need or you render the Earth line completly useless to most of the players out there unlest you are one of those few purists playing a fully specced Earth Theurg in RvR.

What I don't like are guys like Brite with their trash-talk aka "only been a good Theurg and it's Pbuck, all others are shit RR5 bots" and so on. Specially not when he played a BD in groups where it was as hard to shut one down as a Theurg.

So yeah, now we have hard to shut down Theurgs, BDs, evil BG'ed bainshee, utility master healers, Champs two-shotting Clerics and so on. "OMG, the overpowerdness, lal?" - no, it's the way it is and what follows after changes is adaption. All the classes can be overcome in their strength and are not overpowered.

Overpowered was a Warlock pre nerf.

If you nerf enough you have to keep the guys who got nerfed happy by nerfing the rest - I couldn't care less, it's just funny somehow and we have a free choice what class to play and where but following the reasons for all of this there is only one final solution:

One race, one sex, one size, one class, one spec, one level and just 1 versus 1 fights.

That is the only way I see balanced versus overpowered (as most here use overpowered for not fully balanced/unbalanced) answered to.

You always will see people trying to whine in epic threads that something has more power than it needs and the ones holding the power defending it. So it's a subjective matter.

If you don't want to be subjective and if you want to take it to a scientific level instead of some bullshit from noaim and his friends where you are a moron when you don't agree with them you need to look at the word: overpower, a power that overcomes you that is above you that you can't challenge.

We know that Theurgs are beatable. Harder than a Mentalist? Yes. Does Maeloch worry me more on a Mentalist than most of the Theurgs out there? Yes. Would he worry me more on a Theurg? No. Would he worry me also on other classes than Mentalist? Yes. Would he worry me playing something else against cloned Maeloch on a Theurg? Yes. Would he me worry on the Theurg the most? No.

You see? It's the player/group behind a class that can be beaten.

Thanks for the civil discussion btw, even if you have the feeling it's going nowhere. Forums are pretty much like never ending chit chat anyway. Think it's their nature.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

You dont actually have an arguement to why thuergs should be allowed to have somthing that is extremely powerful that no other realm has. But as you said yourself its oh so easy to deal with although you have never done it yourself? maybe you can trade you account AGAIN to experience this one for the first time?

Like you said before, along comes another albion joke class in the form of the heretic, just incase the thuerg does get nerfed later on this patch, gj mythicon

Never said it was easy, troll more or provide me with a quote?

You played BD, Warlock (deleted), now Hunter. Member of a guild who ran 3 Healers in a set group for long time, in a realm that had access to LA and some balanced Savages/Zerkers. Now Thanes and Valks who outperform all other hybrids. Just some facts - other realms had similarly severe issues but you speak about developer bias in favor for Albion.

Troll failing to see the bigger picture you are, being like you are you can whine at anything anytime claiming it's overpowered (see, I just did it). It's pointless. The no other realm thing was for a long time Mythic's strategy, to make the realms somehow different. The final solution to your whines I pointed out in a response to Crom, make it all equal or delete two realms or so.

 

[noaim]

The problem is you speak of things you know nothing about. The reason I dont comment on 1 on 1 stuff etc is that I dont play like that, so I dont know how big impact x and y has on 1 on 1 fights. Thats the exact same reason you shouldnt comment on fg rvr stuff, at least not competetive fg rvr stuff, since you have no idea what its like. What is true in your world can be false in someone elses world, because its like different games, depending on what level you play on. To me armsmen arent overpowered, they got no charge, no banelords etc, yet most people who plays for 1 on 1 seem to agree that armsmen are overpowered. A good theurg in a good fullgrp that keeps pressure on you, is overpowered. Its not pre-nerf warlock 1 on 1 overpowered, but its overpowered.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

The problem is you speak of things you know nothing about. The reason I dont comment on 1 on 1 stuff etc is that I dont play like that, so I dont know how big impact x and y has on 1 on 1 fights. Thats the exact same reason you shouldnt comment on fg rvr stuff, at least not competetive fg rvr stuff, since you have no idea what its like. What is true in your world can be false in someone elses world, because its like different games, depending on what level you play on. To me armsmen arent overpowered, they got no charge, no banelords etc, yet most people who plays for 1 on 1 seem to agree that armsmen are overpowered. A good theurg in a good fullgrp that keeps pressure on you, is overpowered. Its not pre-nerf warlock 1 on 1 overpowered, but its overpowered.

"The reason you are wrong is you suck." *g*

Sherlock, at least I know how to write "competitive" (by now) while trying to say someone else isn't, once you get to there, come back.

A highly competitive player like you can surely deal with other highly competitive players, even if they're playing Theurgs (FG), or?

You can scream "in my FG world Theurgs are overpowered" as much as you want, but that doesn't make it the universal truth or your FG world the ultimate way of playing. The matter is only worth discussing if you try to bring some objectivity into it.

I spare you with my personal insults, Crom is doing such a fine job here.

 

[Eleasias]

The problem is you speak of things you know nothing about. The reason I dont comment on 1 on 1 stuff etc is that I dont play like that, so I dont know how big impact x and y has on 1 on 1 fights. Thats the exact same reason you shouldnt comment on fg rvr stuff, at least not competetive fg rvr stuff, since you have no idea what its like. What is true in your world can be false in someone elses world, because its like different games, depending on what level you play on. To me armsmen arent overpowered, they got no charge, no banelords etc, yet most people who plays for 1 on 1 seem to agree that armsmen are overpowered. A good theurg in a good fullgrp that keeps pressure on you, is overpowered. Its not pre-nerf warlock 1 on 1 overpowered, but its overpowered.

Armsmen are overpowered as fuck in fg vs fg, you just havent ever met a group worth shit that had one Well very very very good atleast.

And Manisch, you still dont know shit

 

[Carss]

Never said it was easy, troll more or provide me with a quote?

You played BD, Warlock (deleted), now Hunter. Member of a guild who ran 3 Healers in a set group for long time, in a realm that had access to LA and some balanced Savages/Zerkers. Now Thanes and Valks who outperform all other hybrids. Just some facts - other realms had similarly severe issues but you speak about developer bias in favor for Albion.

Troll failing to see the bigger picture you are, being like you are you can whine at anything anytime claiming it's overpowered (see, I just did it). It's pointless. The no other realm thing was for a long time Mythic's strategy, to make the realms somehow different. The final solution to your whines I pointed out in a response to Crom, make it all equal or delete two realms or so.

Funny you seem to know everything ive played and just had to get the warlock in there that i played for all of 2 days?. Funny how it was all down the savages and zerkers yeh, ignore the fact that maelstrom still ran a tank group during the grapple era when groups like PE ran 2 grapplebots, was running bonedancers in groups when nobody else even considered using them. But yeh manisch keep talking absolute shit, im sure somebody belives it, god i dont know why i bother to reply..... get more sense out of pip

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Armsmen are overpowered as fuck in fg vs fg, you just havent ever met a group worth shit that had one Well very very very good atleast.

And Manisch, you still dont know shit

Seems that you're a bit ahead of him in your world .

A truly leet circle so to say. A few of their own aka the rest of the world.

Muahahaha.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Funny you seem to know everything ive played and just had to get the warlock in there that i played for all of 2 days?. Funny how it was all down the savages and zerkers yeh, ignore the fact that maelstrom still ran a tank group during the grapple era when groups like PE ran 2 grapplebots, was running bonedancers in groups when nobody else even considered using them. But yeh manisch keep talking absolute shit, im sure somebody belives it, god i dont know why i bother to reply..... get more sense out of pip

You're fighting the person (or people) not the arguments because you have none. That's why I called you clueless in the first place (check the thread).

You're talking about sense and you are totally unable to participate in some not-perma-insult-headed-discussion.

All down to Savages and Zerkers? I said other realms had same issues. You said the devs are biased towards Albion, how can this be when there are other as sever issues elsewhere?

Can you respond to at least a single point made in a civilized manner or shall I yell *shush troll* again?

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

yay, in your face 2 theurg moc on inc german grps!

MoC in the face on inc is always a pain in the ass. Theurg or not.

 

[noaim]

"The reason you are wrong is you suck." *g*

Sherlock, at least I know how to write "competitive" (by now) while trying to say someone else isn't, once you get to there, come back.

A highly competitive player like you can surely deal with other highly competitive players, even if they're playing Theurgs (FG), or?

You can scream "in my FG world Theurgs are overpowered" as much as you want, but that doesn't make it the universal truth or your FG world the ultimate way of playing. The matter is only worth discussing if you try to bring some objectivity into it.

I spare you with my personal insults, Crom is doing such a fine job here.

You can read it however you like. And yeah, I can deal with theurgs, but put them in a good grp that keep good pressure on, and you sometimes _need_ moc to deal with them, which imo is wrong. And I am not sure if you noticed it, but I did bring in objectivity, when I said that whats true for someone can be false for someone else. You however completely fail to do so. An ae nuke in earth line isnt great love for theurgist as a class, but its pretty good love for albion as a realm, usually lacking ae damage in siege situations, and in fg´s for as discussed in the other thread, clearing zo-pets etc. Whats the casttime of cl-nukes anyways? If its anything like the cl resists, I am sure you see why getting a "real" ae nuke that you can get down towards 1 sec casttime, is alot better.

Anyways, the range should have been nerfed rather than the petcap, 16 as cap makes noone happy (except maybe the active rvr theurgs, since they got off so easy and even got love), and it makes people that use their theurgs for PvE-stuff that require petspam pissed off. If you dont see how being able to spam out pets, from 2200 range, that lasts for 1 minute and runs fast and can only be stunned for cc, or pets that lasts for 30 secs and chainsnares you, or pets that last for 20 secs and chainstuns you and dont even die in 1 mom5 lifetap, is overpowered, then thats because you dont have enough experience of it, neither on the receiving or the giving end. Just like bd´s were overpowered because they could permainterrupt 2 people, a theurg is overpowered because he can easily do the same, and even more.

 

[Golena]

Are theurgs overpowered: Yes
Should they be nerfed: No

Albs are all zerging idiots with no clue how to play their class. Just look at your other posts mids and hibs. Your the ones that said so. Clueless people need these overpowered classes to help compete.


There an answer we can all be happy with. Argument over!

 

[swords]

Having played against and in groups with theurgists, including a 2 theurg group which could easily wipe the floor with most enemy groups without breaking a sweat, I can quite easily say that theurgists are overpowered. Thankfully most theurgs suck donkey penis.

Armsmen are overpowered as fuck in fg vs fg, you just havent ever met a group worth shit that had one Well very very very good atleast.

And Manisch, you still dont know shit

All true, anytime snare style cripples tanks, plus the util they get considering they are a main tank makes them nice.

yay, in your face 2 theurg moc on inc german grps!

Never met one on Limors