News The Greeks are playing a dangerous game...

[Wij]

Capitalism only works in growing economies. Therefore everyone hopes for infinite growth. Eg growth forever. Which is impossible. With a finite world and resources. So capitalism is inherently flawed and will fail at some point.

There's not enough resources for everyone in the world to have everything.

That's actually a super-flawed argument. Some resources are practically infinite, such as low-entropy energy from the Sun which is what ultimately powers the whole planet. Got another 5 billion years of that yet. Resources are still used up without growth, just more slowly. The natural state of the world has no equilibrium and could easily tip itself into a chaotic state wiping out species. Also, just because resources are not infinite doesn't mean their running out is something we have to worry about for a very long time. Some may run out but we can adapt to use others instead. In the timescale where we have to worry about running out of all resources we'll have many bigger things to worry about.

Honestly that's a total first year student bullshit argument. I'm not even trying to defend capitalism but a bad argument is a bad argument whatever conclusion it comes to.

 

[Wij]

"From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs". I need a Ferrari...

Actually that quote is one of the most laughable in Marxism. Who decides what 'needs' are ? Leave it to individuals and they will 'need' whatever they damn well feel like and fuck the rest of society. My 3 year old doesn't ever want anything he NEEEEEEEEEEEDS it

So since individuals can't be trusted it falls to some paternalistic overseers to decide on our behalf. Power concentrates to a few and you have Mao in his palaces with concubines whilst his people are forced to starve.

 

[Wij]

A German take on capitalism is what's needed as opposed to an American one, responsable spending and alot less debt

Actually Germany has done rather well up till now being saddled with the same currency as the PIIGS countries as their weakness has kept the Euro low, allowing Germany to export more and run a trade surplus. You could argue that it's a bit rich them benefitting like this and then denying any form of fiscal union which means they share their wealth

 

[DaGaffer]

Actually Germany has done rather well up till now being saddled with the same currency as the PIIGS countries as their weakness has kept the Euro low, allowing Germany to export more and run a trade surplus. You could argue that it's a bit rich them benefitting like this and then denying any form of fiscal union which means they share their wealth

Having things to export in the first place is what really gives the Germans an advantage.

 

[Wij]

Having things to export in the first place is what really gives the Germans an advantage.

Yes but it also means there's no point in Greece even trying since they can't compete on price by running a weaker currency than Germany.

 

[Moriath]

That's actually a super-flawed argument. Some resources are practically infinite, such as low-entropy energy from the Sun which is what ultimately powers the whole planet. Got another 5 billion years of that yet. Resources are still used up without growth, just more slowly. The natural state of the world has no equilibrium and could easily tip itself into a chaotic state wiping out species. Also, just because resources are not infinite doesn't mean their running out is something we have to worry about for a very long time. Some may run out but we can adapt to use others instead. In the timescale where we have to worry about running out of all resources we'll have many bigger things to worry about.

Honestly that's a total first year student bullshit argument. I'm not even trying to defend capitalism but a bad argument is a bad argument whatever conclusion it comes to.

just because the sun is 'somewhat infinite' nothing else is ... oil and helium are predicted to peak around now .. or with helium we are expected to run out by 2035.

Why would the usa want to be at war with iraq and lybia etc if they didnt think oil was worth dying for in those regions.

If oil runs out so does plastic so does a lot of our means to produce power.. so does the a lot of our ability to produce the plants and mechanics to make the things that produce the alternative power.

How can you make a tidal power machine ot a wind turbine if you dont have sufficient power to move the vehicle that moves the resources that takes it to the plant etc etc.

We are on a finite rock in space .. with ( apart from the sun) a finite amount of material to use. and capitalism being successful means growth on growth on growth. Yes there are ways to limit resources like give everyone a pc and download music instead of buying CD's. But in order for the companies that make PC's to become successful they need to remodel every 6 months to year to make more demand to use more resources etc etc

and you cant do that with 7 billion demanding bodies inifintly .. so therefore its flawed

Otherwise go back to your den and fap with yourself wij

 

[Tom]

wat

 

[old.Tohtori]

Actually that quote is one of the most laughable in Marxism.

I do believe that was meant towards basic needs of survival; survival, water, food.

 

[rynnor]

just because the sun is 'somewhat infinite' nothing else is ... oil and helium are predicted to peak around now .. or with helium we are expected to run out by 2035.

Helium? More is released every day by the breakdown of radioactive isotopes that have half lifes in the billions of years like thorium.

The sun will die but those isotopes will still be producing helium...

 

[Wij]

just because the sun is 'somewhat infinite' nothing else is ... oil and helium are predicted to peak around now .. or with helium we are expected to run out by 2035.

Why would the usa want to be at war with iraq and lybia etc if they didnt think oil was worth dying for in those regions.

If oil runs out so does plastic so does a lot of our means to produce power.. so does the a lot of our ability to produce the plants and mechanics to make the things that produce the alternative power.

How can you make a tidal power machine ot a wind turbine if you dont have sufficient power to move the vehicle that moves the resources that takes it to the plant etc etc.

None of that has anything to do with capitalism.

No form of society uses no resources. No society will last infinitely. Nothing in nature lasts infinitely. Capitalism isn't expected to last inifinitely either. Hence the argument is bolox.

 

[Wij]

I do believe that was meant towards basic needs of survival; survival, water, food.

That would make it a pretty fucked up ascetic philosophy. Still leaves the question of who decides what needs are. Is health provision a need or a luxury ? Comfy furniture ? Tasty food rather than basic ? Who decides ?

 

[old.Tohtori]

It doesn't take away that by earning you can spend those earnings to luxuries, better food, better apartment etc. Just that each individual does what they can do and that every individual is cared for when it comes to food/water/living.

 

[Wij]

It doesn't take away that by earning you can spend those earnings to luxuries, better food, better apartment etc. Just that each individual does what they can do and that every individual is cared for when it comes to food/water/living.

You can do that in a capitalist system. Where's the USP ?

 

[old.Tohtori]

You can, but it's not being done. So maybe a bit of both worlds would work

 

[DaGaffer]

You can, but it's not being done. So maybe a bit of both worlds would work

A bit of both worlds does work, for a while; Sweden being an obvious example. But the costs always tend to outrun the revenues such a society can generate over the long run and there's actually a double whammy because those societies also tend to get less competitive over time in comparison to lower public spend economies, so their revenues decline as well. In addition the Scandinavian example doesn't scale well for larger populations. Of course if there was a single world state, the arguments about competetiveness would go away to great extent...

 

[Moriath]

Helium? More is released every day by the breakdown of radioactive isotopes that have half lifes in the billions of years like thorium.

The sun will die but those isotopes will still be producing helium...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/why-the-world-is-running-out-of-helium-2059357.html

The world is running out of helium see above link.

 

[MYstIC G]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/why-the-world-is-running-out-of-helium-2059357.html

The world is running out of helium see above link.

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Ubuntu server is using it all?

 

[Zarjazz]

Ubuntu server is using it all?

Fail. Their own fault for using Ubuntu Server tbh

 

[Zede]

Greece cheated its way into the Euro by producing false financial information then used the greater apparent financial stability this gave them to effectively max out its credit card - Greece was always going to crash in the end because it spends far more than it gets in as taxation = unsustainable.

more like goldman helped prepare this financial information !

If greece didn't pay goldman sachs, bohooo to them, but really who gives a shit a big greedy bank don't get paid ?

 

[DaGaffer]

more like goldman helped prepare this financial information !

If greece didn't pay goldman sachs, bohooo to them, but really who gives a shit a big greedy bank don't get paid ?

FFS, quit with the whining about Goldman Sachs; Greece owes most of its debt to German and French banks. All American exposure put together in Greece only accounts for about 6% of the debt, so this is not a GS issue.

 

[MYstIC G]

more like goldman helped prepare this financial information !

If greece didn't pay goldman sachs, bohooo to them, but really who gives a shit a big greedy bank don't get paid ?

Everyone. Ripple effect ffs.

The bottom line of all this is you need to follow the money. For me, it's not here inside the euro zone.

 

[rynnor]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/why-the-world-is-running-out-of-helium-2059357.html

The world is running out of helium see above link.

Its a pretty factually innacurate piece - helium released to the atmosphere is not lost to the earth - its in the air? Its not yet commercially viable but we could extract it from the atmosphere if needed.

This is where capitslism is your friend - scarce resources get more expensive.

No-one drills for helium currently -its all a byproduct of oil exploration - no doubt we could locate more if we went after it but until it does get scarce none will bother.

 

[Job]

If dumbfounds me that we haven't got a worldwide effort to perfect the Thorium reactor, even if it's only 1% as good as they hope, it would supply everything we need for 100,000 years.
They are trying with the fusion reactor, but it's proving to be a bit of a bugger.

 

[rynnor]

If dumbfounds me that we haven't got a worldwide effort to perfect the Thorium reactor, even if it's only 1% as good as they hope, it would supply everything we need for 100,000 years.
They are trying with the fusion reactor, but it's proving to be a bit of a bugger.

Its because nuclear power is mostly supplied by commercial entities now and they just go for what works. The Fusion work seems to be pretty much on hold currently - they couldnt be much further from making it viable though or even breaking even on the energy needed to initiate fusion so the possibility of making it commercially viable seems remote.

 

[Tuthmes]

Everyone. Ripple effect ffs.

The bottom line of all this is you need to follow the money. For me, it's not here inside the euro zone.

Hah!

 

[rynnor]

more like goldman helped prepare this financial information !
If greece didn't pay goldman sachs, bohooo to them, but really who gives a shit a big greedy bank don't get paid ?

Greece would care because it wont be able to borrow money which will lead to years of slow growth and hardship - all the rich people have left already and the skilled middle classes will follow as it slumps.

 

[Moriath]

rynnor

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2010/01/us-sale-of-helium-criticised.html

new scientist ok

"Helium is nonrenewable and irreplaceable,"

so want to retract what you said before ? or you require an edict from god first ?

 

[Tom]

who gives a shit a big greedy bank don't get paid ?

Everybody who works for a living.

 

[Zarjazz]

That bit about going to the moon to mine for helium-3 isn't a joke, it very very rare on Earth but a lot more common on the Moon due to direct radiation from the Sun. It has a lot of uses including fuel for fusion reactors. My university used to produced most of the helium-3 used by NASA as they had a world class low temperature lab and could extract it from normal helium-4 to a very high purity. One of my professors described it like this:

Liquid nitrogen is cheaper than milk to produce. Liquid helium is the same price as a cheap whisky. A litre bottle of helium-3 would set you back over £20,000.

 

[Moriath]

but liquid helium is only heap as whiskey cause of the artificial low price from the USA market cause they wanna sell it all ortherwise it will be like a lot more