News The Greeks are playing a dangerous game...

[Moriath]

Capitalism only works in growing economies. Therefore everyone hopes for infinite growth. Eg growth forever. Which is impossible. With a finite world and resources. So capitalism is inherently flawed and will fail at some point.

There's not enough resources for everyone in the world to have everything.

 

[Gwadien]

Capitalism only works in growing economies. Therefore everyone hopes for infinite growth. Eg growth forever. Which is impossible. With a finite world and resources. So capitalism is inherently flawed and will fail at some point.

There's not enough resources for everyone in the world to have everything.

The cyber-world is infinite though

 

[Gumbo]

Not everyone is in the position to make money. If the market is poor like it is now, businesses determine who will work for them. Which in short will always be the one that accepts the lowest pay. Also not everyone is able todo every job. We are not all gifted with a genius brain, or the skills of a plumber, or a painter, etc, etc.

Also you can have a shitty job that pays very well, but you don't last for a year. Or you can get a job that pays poor, but one you are content with for years.

leader>people = slavery.
rich>poor = LoL?

I respect people for what and how they are, not how much money they make/have.

You have a very narrow minded view of people Himse.

You badly badly need to read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.

Where does your Utopia put me?

I run a small business, we have 5 employees. It's up to me what they do each day, I am paid more than they are, therefore I suppose I'm the leader, they are the slaves. But wait a minute, it's me that has to take the risks. It's me who signs the personal guarantee to the bank to say that if the business folds they can come and take my car and my telly. It's up to me to get the business, from the people that will pay me, so I can pay my guys and they can put food on the table for their families.

Should I be ashamed that I earn perhaps 15% more than the next highest paid person in my company?

 

[DaGaffer]

Meanwhile, Ireland finds €3.6bn down the back of the sofa

 

[Punishment]

A German take on capitalism is what's needed as opposed to an American one, responsable spending and alot less debt

 

[Punishment]

Meanwhile, Ireland finds €3.6bn down the back of the sofa

They are going to use some of it to Freeze Micheal D so they can knock a full presidency out of him and wheel him out for special occasions

 

[Embattle]

A German take on capitalism is what's needed as opposed to an American one, responsable spending and alot less debt

Strong exports help as well.

 

[noblok]

You badly badly need to read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.

If you want to read a badly written story which hasn't got much to do with reality.

It's not a shame that some people earn more than others, if they contribute more. The current system is pretty far removed from a meritocracy though and the main reason isn't because those who don't contribute earn too much through state benefits (in the traditional sense - as tax breaks for the rich can be seen as state benefits as well).

You're better of reading something with substance, such as this: http://www.neweconomics.org/publications/bit-rich .

 

[Tuthmes]

You badly badly need to read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.

Where does your Utopia put me?

I run a small business, we have 5 employees. It's up to me what they do each day, I am paid more than they are, therefore I suppose I'm the leader, they are the slaves. But wait a minute, it's me that has to take the risks. It's me who signs the personal guarantee to the bank to say that if the business folds they can come and take my car and my telly. It's up to me to get the business, from the people that will pay me, so I can pay my guys and they can put food on the table for their families.

Should I be ashamed that I earn perhaps 15% more than the next highest paid person in my company?

No you should not nor am I saying that. I'm not saying socialism is better then capitalism. Nor that all the people should get equal wages.We should be able to take care of eachother and the people that are in need of it or deserved it, without having to have to share everything equally.

The people are so blind they only see black and white or ie. socialism or capitalism. That's the choice. Perhaps it has something todo with "only" having a 2 party system.

On a side note i'm pretty sure there are small businesses that have 5 minors working for them for €3,00 an hour. Take it or leave it, while the boss is having a laugh.

Your Utopia doesnt work either.

 

[Mey]

I hope my employer makes me redudant so I can disappear to some random Island.

 

[rynnor]

You will always end up with capitalism and its a nonsense that it requires growth - it works even in a zero sum game.

It just recognises the fact that some people have skills/acumen/drive etc.

Even in the USSR they couldnt stsmp it out completely.

If you divided everything equally today by the evening youd have rich and poor again.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Just convert everyone to Seelism, where you are free to express your mind, punished accordingly to crime, get free beers every week and are paid accordingly to your contribution to the society, not by level of power.

 

[DaGaffer]

Just convert everyone to Seelism, where you are free to express your mind, punished accordingly to crime, get free beers every week and are paid accordingly to your contribution to the society, not by level of power.

"From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs". I need a Ferrari...

 

[Genedril]

I hate to get drawn in but....

Socialism has never been proved to be a failure - Communism != Socialism. A Marxist social revolution has not yet taken place on this planet (no matter what the people that lead the odd revolution may claim).

Also Capitalism is not a political theory it's a financial one. If you want capitalism then you need a robust political model to keep it in it's place and doing what it is (supposedly) good at which is promoting economic growth.

 

[Zede]

goldman sachs lent greece a load of cash, financial crisis hits, greece cannnot pay the illlegallly loaned cash back. Fuck goldman sachs, fuck the fucking bankers.

 

[Scouse]

Ok, just a very short message, I agree with Raven. Why do EVERYONE make the fundamental error of instantly start talking with socialism as the only other possible solution other than capitalism? There is probably a million other ways of doing it, we just need to start from scratch, w/o our Fathers theories...

I keep banging my head hard against this particular nugget too.

Don't worry Zen, it's a failure of intellect and imagination, probably coupled with a good dose of fear of the unknown, that restricts people's thinking.

It's surely got to be better than this current antidemocratic shite:

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou is expected to offer his resignation within the next half-hour...He is expected to offer a coalition government, with former Greek central banker Lucas Papademos at the helm.

Direct central bank control. I guess that's what happens when a president wants his people to have a referendum that asks them what they want.

In or out of the Euro? In, you fuckers, you're in. And the rest of Europe thinks you're a bunch of tax-dodging arseholes rather than people who have been subjected to a series of serious financial crimes, like the rest of us.

 

[Gumbo]

How about throwing a military coup into this mix? It's not entirely impossible as the sacking of the heads of the Army, Airforce and Navy yesterday showed.

Amongst all this it's pretty much accepted that allowing Greece to fold entirely means that Italy and then France will go too, with the sideshows of Spain, Portugal and Ireland imploding at the same time.

I'm struggling to get my head around what this means for me, as a businessman, and for my family. You follow trains of thought and come to an end where it won't make too much difference, or to another end where it's the end of the world. I haven't managed to have anyone explain to me, or to read anywhere what it would mean. I'm uneasy though.

 

[Scouse]

Why throw a military coup "into the mix" when the central bank will take over? Job done. Greece has a ruler.

Capitalism - the system that keeps the rich rich, with central bankers running the system.

Democracy - the system that allows the 2nd-tier government (or "the government", as we call it) to manage our day-to-day shit in an economic framework provided by the central banks. We can vote - but not on anything important...

 

[Gumbo]

It's not me throwing it in, it's mutterings within the military that the politicians are screwing the country, and they think they might do better.

Greece has a pretty huge standing armed force, relatively speaking, some of which, especially the officer class is going to suffer badly under the austerity measures.

I'm just saying that the climate is getting increasingly ripe for some ambitious Generals to get their heads together and let the idea gather pace. The chaos is not abating, it's getting worse by the hour.

 

[ECA]

A German take on capitalism is what's needed as opposed to an American one, responsable spending and alot less debt

???

I suggest you go look at the german debt per capita

 

[ECA]

A German take on capitalism is what's needed as opposed to an American one, responsable spending and alot less debt

???

I suggest you go look at the german debt per capita

 

[DaGaffer]

I keep banging my head hard against this particular nugget too.

Don't worry Zen, it's a failure of intellect and imagination, probably coupled with a good dose of fear of the unknown, that restricts people's thinking.

Enlighten us. Believe it or not, an awful lot of economic and political models have been tested (to destruction usually) down the centuries. Capitalism is by no means perfect, but its the only economic model that has managed to work at all well. And in the political sphere, Socialism doesn't equal communism, and there's a degree of socialism shouldn't be dismissed just because Americans don't like it, and once again, we don't have a right/left political spectrum for shits and giggles; other methods were found wanting first. Knee-jerk "captialism is evil! Socialism has failed!" comments are as innacurate as they are useless

It's surely got to be better than this current antidemocratic shite:

Direct central bank control. I guess that's what happens when a president wants his people to have a referendum that asks them what they want.

In or out of the Euro? In, you fuckers, you're in. And the rest of Europe thinks you're a bunch of tax-dodging arseholes rather than people who have been subjected to a series of serious financial crimes, like the rest of us.

To be fair, Papademos isn't a banker any more, and there have been plenty of British governments with unelected heads or members; at least this guy looks like he might actually be qualified for the job, unlike say, Peter Mandelson. As for the "financial crimes" the Greek people have been subjected to, the people who need to carry the can for that are principally the Greek government, who lied repeatedly about passing the economic tests to be allowed into the Euro in the first place!

As for the referendum; its a bit of a joke tbh; if the Greek people said no, then what? The only way for that referendum to have made any sense was for it to have been a straight "in or out of the Euro?" question (because the only way Greece could survive without German money is to have a currency they can devalue), but of course Papandreou was never going to ask his people that, because he would have got an answer that he and no-one else in the "European Project" wants to hear.

 

[DaGaffer]

???

I suggest you go look at the german debt per capita

Meaningless. Levels of debt don't really matter, its the ability to service said debts. Germans can (because they have a real economy with real tax revenues), Greeks and Italians can't. I actually feel a bit sorry for the Italian people because as individuals they are actually financially prudent with low levels of personal debt; the problem is at the government level and a nasty mix of demographics and lack of economic growth; Greece has high personal and government debt, and never had the economic base to pay its way in the first place.

 

[Scouse]

Stuff

So, you're saying that you agree with me that it's undemocratic ("of course papendreou was never going to ask..."), you're labouring under the illusion that if you run a central bank you suddenly become a paragon of justice and virtue, rather than an ex-central bank head and part of the system you actively support, you state there's "plenty of British governments with unelected heads or members" - like that makes it OK rather than it being additional evidence of a corrupt system and dismiss the "capitalism = bad, socialism = fail" as knee-jerk reaction from thousands of people rather than their considered opinions based on a lifetime of living in a world run by both systems.

OK then

 

[Tom]

Scouse, what would you do to solve these problems?

 

[DaGaffer]

So, you're saying that you agree with me that it's undemocratic ("of course papendreou was never going to ask..."), you're labouring under the illusion that if you run a central bank you suddenly become a paragon of justice and virtue, rather than an ex-central bank head and part of the system you actively support, you state there's "plenty of British governments with unelected heads or members" - like it make's it OK rather than it being additional evidence of a corrupt system and dismiss the "capitalism = bad, socialism = fail" as knee-jerk reaction from thousands of people rather than considered opinion based on a lifetime of living in a world run by both systems.

OK then

Its not "corrupt" to have government members who aren't elected; its sometimes prudent. You're not taking away the democratic right of voters to throw that government out; you're simply availing of a skillset when you need it, and sorry, yes, I'd rather have a trained economist in a government, even if unelected and a former central bank head, that what we get, which is usually a former QC or PR flack.

As for the referendum, your line was; "I guess that's what happens when a president wants his people to have a referendum that asks them what they want." Lovely sentiment, but "what they want" isn't the issue anymore, because what the Greek people want according to all the opinion polls, is not to have austerity measures but not to leave the Euro either! Unfortunately that's the one option that isn't open to them, so if Papandreou had the interests of his people at heart, rather than being the usual shitweazle that all politicians are, then the only honest question to ask the Greeks is "in, or out?" (with all that that implies).

 

[ECA]

Meaningless. Levels of debt don't really matter, its the ability to service said debts. Germans can (because they have a real economy with real tax revenues), Greeks and Italians can't. I actually feel a bit sorry for the Italian people because as individuals they are actually financially prudent with low levels of personal debt; the problem is at the government level and a nasty mix of demographics and lack of economic growth; Greece has high personal and government debt, and never had the economic base to pay its way in the first place.

Punishment specifically said the germans should be more like the americans, when german debt per capita is higher than the US.

 

[DaGaffer]

Punishment specifically said the germans should be more like the americans, when german debt per capita is higher than the US.

Its a bit more complicated than that. You're looking at a comparison of all debt, not public debt. If you look at the public debt, Germany is still borrowing a higher % of GDP than the US, but in terms of per capita there's very little in it ($29,158 for the US v. $30,024 for the Germans), and the Germans seem to do rather a lot more for the public good with their spending than the US seems to be able to manage. So it shows that the German government is pretty prudent. As for the rest of the debt, the US is a much larger internal market so their external debt levels are always going to be lower than Germany's. I bet if you discounted German debt from within the Eurozone, it would be a different picture.

 

[rynnor]

goldman sachs lent greece a load of cash, financial crisis hits, greece cannnot pay the illlegallly loaned cash back. Fuck goldman sachs, fuck the fucking bankers.

Greece cheated its way into the Euro by producing false financial information then used the greater apparent financial stability this gave them to effectively max out its credit card - Greece was always going to crash in the end because it spends far more than it gets in as taxation = unsustainable.

 

[Uncle Sick]

The German leader mentioned war, not sure who would declare on who.

No one.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-unpopular-unity/story-e6frg6ux-1226178789885

 

[Punishment]

???

I suggest you go look at the german debt per capita

They had to pay for 2 world war's and the pumped alot more than most countries into infrastructure