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Alkoran
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- #271
If you will not accept that something might start to be on it's own and you will not accept that something has always been... how are we here now?
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boni_ofdavoid
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- #272
Be carefull, the turin shroud is generaly thought to be a fake. Carbon dating put most of the fibers at around 12-16C.
Ofc, you cant have any proof.
If theres was proof, there would be no need for faith.
If there was no need for faith, then belief and religion would mean nothing
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boni_ofdavoid
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- #273
Originally posted by tris-
bah i wish some religious type would just answer my Q
why is possible god can just exist, without being created. something that is supposed to be perfect and have all this power, yet its totaly unreasonable to think a human could just be here with no creation. surely a mere human has more of a chance to just be here than an almighty god? why do we have to be created and god doesnt when the bible teaches all about creation aswell?
There is no scientific, proovable answer. When you ask if something is 'possible' you are looking for a scientific probabalistic answer, which you cannot get from a religious belief.
You either believe or you dont.
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Brynn
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- #274
Originally posted by tris-
brynn, please answer my Q i am interested to know what u have to say, or i will be forced to pm you
What Q - i have read over the past 3 pages up to my last responce and havent found a question
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tris-
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- #275
ok u dont understand me, im not looking for explanations for anything ok, what im asking is -
1. god just existed right?
2. also believed to create the world.
3. created humans they say
4. if god can just exist why cant humans?
5. if god is more perfect than us then it would be harder for him to juse exist than it would for a mere human right?
6. if god can just exist, anything can just exist and there is no need for the god in the first place, yes?
7."If you will not accept that something might start to be on it's own and you will not accept that something has always been... how are we here now?" yes, so why dont christians accept humans can just exist without being made, if they can believe an all seeing all powerful entity can exist which is much more complex than us?!
hope that is easier.
1. god just existed right?
2. also believed to create the world.
3. created humans they say
4. if god can just exist why cant humans?
5. if god is more perfect than us then it would be harder for him to juse exist than it would for a mere human right?
6. if god can just exist, anything can just exist and there is no need for the god in the first place, yes?
7."If you will not accept that something might start to be on it's own and you will not accept that something has always been... how are we here now?" yes, so why dont christians accept humans can just exist without being made, if they can believe an all seeing all powerful entity can exist which is much more complex than us?!
hope that is easier.
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tris-
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- #276
well i pmed so look there
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Damini
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- #277
Dogs evolved from wolves.
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Alkoran
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- #278
You're not looking for explanations?.... you're looking for an answer?
That makes f'all sense
You just want someone to say "oh I see, you're right"
Your arguement is flawed anyway, you have no grounding for the theory that perfection would be less likely to occur in a spontanious creation.
You really haven't thought about this enough before challenging people's beliefs.. you don't even comprehend what "belief" is.
Ask for explanations first, then challenge with the knowledge gained.
Many are the reasons that drive people to belive. To dispel belief you must challenge every reason. You must fill every need. You must answer every question. You cannot do this? Then do not try to dispel belief. Challenge the actions of belivers when you think them wrong for there is merit in this but never expect them to stop beliving.
That makes f'all sense
You just want someone to say "oh I see, you're right"
Your arguement is flawed anyway, you have no grounding for the theory that perfection would be less likely to occur in a spontanious creation.
You really haven't thought about this enough before challenging people's beliefs.. you don't even comprehend what "belief" is.
Ask for explanations first, then challenge with the knowledge gained.
Many are the reasons that drive people to belive. To dispel belief you must challenge every reason. You must fill every need. You must answer every question. You cannot do this? Then do not try to dispel belief. Challenge the actions of belivers when you think them wrong for there is merit in this but never expect them to stop beliving.
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Ravenbourne
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- #279
At the end of the day you should lead your own life, not follow what is told to you by the much edited bible, the bible and religion was great in the past, priests could use it to demand money from people saying if they didn't give it they would burn in hell. imo religion and belief in God are two very different things.
Has anyone seen Bruce almighty? crap film I know, but it got me thinking, if there was a god would he be happy with people constantly begging him for things or would he want you to lead your own life? why should I pledge myself to something that may or may not be real. Why is your god (Christians) the real god? On most Christians arguments god may as well be the fairy at the bottom of the garden for all the proof available.
The church is going through a hard time at the moment, this has many causes amongst others our knowledge of science, and the west's continual social demise.
Religion in the past has held back many aspects of civilisation including the arts and science with many people that would today be heralded as genius being past off as a heretic and either banished or murdered.
Today's bible can not be taken as anything like fact as it has been translated and edited to suit the view of its preachers so many times it would be un reliable in a true investigation.
Don't get me wrong I think everyone has the right to choose if they want to believe in something like that, personally I would rather make my own choices based on my own way of life, treat others as you wish to be treated, if someone's a twat, treat them as such.
Has anyone seen Bruce almighty? crap film I know, but it got me thinking, if there was a god would he be happy with people constantly begging him for things or would he want you to lead your own life? why should I pledge myself to something that may or may not be real. Why is your god (Christians) the real god? On most Christians arguments god may as well be the fairy at the bottom of the garden for all the proof available.
The church is going through a hard time at the moment, this has many causes amongst others our knowledge of science, and the west's continual social demise.
Religion in the past has held back many aspects of civilisation including the arts and science with many people that would today be heralded as genius being past off as a heretic and either banished or murdered.
Today's bible can not be taken as anything like fact as it has been translated and edited to suit the view of its preachers so many times it would be un reliable in a true investigation.
Don't get me wrong I think everyone has the right to choose if they want to believe in something like that, personally I would rather make my own choices based on my own way of life, treat others as you wish to be treated, if someone's a twat, treat them as such.
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tris-
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- #280
tsk i wish youd read my Q propley ffs and stop making assumptions. im not asking for someone to say oh your right of for people to stop believing (where did u get that shit from btw). i do know what beliefe is, i dont remember asking "someone tell WHAT IS BELIEF?!". isnt the idea of a god reasonable, because it was hard to believe that evrything that exists now is so perfect it couldnt of just come together from no where? i thought that was one argument that there must be a god, because of the design of the universe and everything is to complex to say "it just happend!"
are you trying to say that its harder to achieve a shit result (humans) than it is to achieve a perfect result (god) spontaniously? or am i talking shit and making assumptions like you?
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Sibanac
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- #281
Originally posted by tris-
tsk i wish youd read my Q propley ffs and stop making assumptions. im not asking for someone to say oh your right of for people to stop believing (where did u get that shit from btw). i do know what beliefe is, i dont remember asking "someone tell WHAT IS BELIEF?!". isnt the idea of a god reasonable, because it was hard to believe that evrything that exists now is so perfect it couldnt of just come together from no where? i thought that was one argument that there must be a god, because of the design of the universe and everything is to complex to say "it just happend!"
are you trying to say that its harder to achieve a shit result (humans) than it is to achieve a perfect result (god) spontaniously? or am i talking shit and making assumptions like you?
This is called 'anthropomorphic principal' its to complex to explain it all here and the diffrence between the weak and strong version but it comes down to this :
If a million universes are created and only 1 is so perfect that inteligent live could evolve, then that will be the only universe ever seen by inteligent life.
So the reason our universe is so perfect is that if it wasnt so perfect we wouldnt be here to observe it.
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tris-
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- #282
sibanac thats all well and good, but im not asking that shit i dunno how to make it anymore clear so im gonna stop trying
shit i dunno how to make it anymore clear so im gonna stop trying
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Sibanac
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- #283
just repost your original Q, cause i cba to read thru the whole thread again
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Ceap
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- #284
There is a theory that Jesus is the latest incarnation of the sun god, ie Apollo.
If you examine the choice of Xmas as occuring in midwinter, then the birth of the son (of god) can be seen as the coming of spring (or a foreshadowing of it), the winter solstice etc.
For more details read Jesus Christ, Sun of God (which i havent as yet so don't flame the messenger)
If you examine the choice of Xmas as occuring in midwinter, then the birth of the son (of god) can be seen as the coming of spring (or a foreshadowing of it), the winter solstice etc.
For more details read Jesus Christ, Sun of God (which i havent as yet so don't flame the messenger)
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Cush
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- #285
I just find it hard to understand that people actualy belive what stands in the bible and take it for something that realy happend. I mean have you ever tried to sit in a circle and wisper something in the guy/girl to to right only to have it return to you saying something completly different?
How do you think these stories got know back at that time? by stories that people told and they got distorted as they went along.
I think the monthy python movie is more accurat in what happen then whats said in the bible.
Other then that the bible is a great book with lots of great stories in it. But thats what it is no less and no more then a story book thats made up(sure some passages have happend but maybe just not as it says in the book).
How do you think these stories got know back at that time? by stories that people told and they got distorted as they went along.
I think the monthy python movie is more accurat in what happen then whats said in the bible.
Other then that the bible is a great book with lots of great stories in it. But thats what it is no less and no more then a story book thats made up(sure some passages have happend but maybe just not as it says in the book).
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Sibanac
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- #286
Actualy the romans moved xmas to coincide with the birth of their sun god
http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm
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Alkoran
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- #287
I think this speaks for itself
Not asking is rarly a sign of knowledge and you have demonstrated ignorance by your ill phrased questions.
You have no experience of spontanious creation yet you assume if follows the same rules as contructing something from component parts. You are attempting to apply one set of rules to something we know nothing about. Something that may have very different rules or no rules at all. You then attempt to base an arguement on this. This makes the whole question pointless. You ask "why can't people just accept that spontanious creation is more likely to occur for mortal creatures than for a god?" people will not accept this because you provide neither supporting evidence (as required by science) or reputable wisdom (as required by religion).
I do not follow any organised religion BTW and feel that the actions of many people in the name of their religion are flawed. However, I see no harm in beleiving in a creator. In the eyes of science, the beleif that there is no creator is equal to the beleif that there has to be one.