Politics The General Election 2015

[Talivar]

Dropping bombs isnt working tho, we have seen the tunnels they build and use to negate them and we have seen the consequences of it by the new recruits it creates. If we are going to fight them then it has to be done by soldiers on the ground otherwise it just makes things worse.
Remember there are already 12 countries dropping bombs to little effect.

 

[Raven]

Actually, whilst I largely agree with you there @Raven, in this instance THE most important issue is whether he's right. And people seem to be focussing less on that and more on your correct-but-less-important argument.

*In some people's opinion he is right.

The fact is, he held a shadow cabinet meeting to discuss it and found that as a party they were split, he said they would discuss it further.

Then after the meeting he sent a memo out telling people how to vote.

 

[Talivar]

No he didnt he sent a letter saying how he will vote, they are still discussing things atm with the likely outcome a free vote.
The anger you are seeing is from the media who understand that unless Labour fully agrees with Camerons decision then nothing is going to happen. Cameron has stated already he wont do it unless he has 100% backing from all MPS as he feels it would be a win for ISIS if he went to a vote and lost.

 

[Raven]

That's odd, because that isn't what Labour MPs are being quoted as saying.

Cameron is also not seeking 100% backing, that would be dumb.

 

[Talivar]

He is he stated it on TV yesterday, he wants to make sure there can be no chance of losing if it goes to a vote as he said a loss at a vote is a victory for ISIS.

 

[Talivar]

Hilary Benn told Radio 4's Today programme he would not quit but he insisted that the terror threat to the UK was "very, very clear" and it was right the UK "plays its full part" in targeted military action in Syria.

Mr Corbyn, he said, was "perfectly entitled" to express his view to Labour MPs and every member of the shadow cabinet would be making their own mind up about what to do.

 

[Talivar]

David Cameron spent nearly three hours on Wednesday answering questions from MPs in an attempt to convince them of the case for air strikes.

He has said he will not hold a vote authorising military action until he can be certain of winning it, to avoid handing IS a "publicity coup".

 

[Gwadien]

The thing is, this isn't the same situation as last time we had a vote to bomb Syria - that was for regime change, this time it's to get rid of ISIS, and the UN have suggested that countries use all means necessary to get rid of them.

If there was even the slightest chance you could negotiate with this particular band of snackbars then I would be all for it, but they've shown repeatedly the only thing they understand is violence, so if that's what it takes then that's what we should do.

Dropping bombs is never ideal, but unless anyone has any better ideas, then I suspect that is what is needed. The UK population seems pretty well behind the idea as well.

As I said in the other thread, we need boots on the ground - the recruitment process that other terrorist groups we fought used is nothing in comparison with what IS use. We need to go into these countries with a clear hearts and minds mandate, like we did in Afghanistan, just let the Americans play as air support, because they're way too trigger happy.

It worked in Afghanistan but we didn't invest enough time into it. As I say, we need to stabilise the area and spend atleast 20 years there, get the local nations the spearhead it and we support.

The retaliation bombing from the French was super ironic since they wrote stuff like from Paris with love on the bombs - because they were upset that they attacked innocents, issue is, how many innocents did France kill in response?

Playing this game of exchanging blows is not going to work. They're a guerilla force, and we're retarded for under estimating their capability.

You thought al-qaeda was bad with their AKs and their RPGs the hardware IS have now... Looolll

 

[Raven]

Seems there will be a perfect party for @Scouse then

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...e-last-thing-labour-party-does-20151127104233

 

[Zarjazz]

Whether he is right or not is not the issue.

Ahh, politics. Gotta love it.

 

[Raven]

As I said in the other thread, we need boots on the ground - the recruitment process that other terrorist groups we fought used is nothing in comparison with what IS use. We need to go into these countries with a clear hearts and minds mandate, like we did in Afghanistan, just let the Americans play as air support, because they're way too trigger happy.

It worked in Afghanistan but we didn't invest enough time into it. As I say, we need to stabilise the area and spend atleast 20 years there, get the local nations the spearhead it and we support.

The retaliation bombing from the French was super ironic since they wrote stuff like from Paris with love on the bombs - because they were upset that they attacked innocents, issue is, how many innocents did France kill in response?

Playing this game of exchanging blows is not going to work. They're a guerilla force, and we're retarded for under estimating their capability.

You thought al-qaeda was bad with their AKs and their RPGs the hardware IS have now... Looolll

It didn't work at all in Afganistan, we spent billions fucking about, plus however many hundreds of lives lost. As soon as we leave its pretty much turned into a shit hole again. The only way we can "win" is be eradicating the crazies completely. It's probably best to just leave them to butcher each other.

 

[Gwadien]

It didn't work at all in Afganistan, we spent billions fucking about, plus however many hundreds of lives lost. As soon as we leave its pretty much turned into a shit hole again. The only way we can "win" is be eradicating the crazies completely. It's probably best to just leave them to butcher each other.

We worked in Afghanistan, the Americans didn't, the problem with war is democracy.

We like to go into an area and sort the issue and leave ASAP so parties can get elected on the basis of 'I'll bring your kids home'

We need to INVEST properly into the middle east if we want to sort it out, or as you say, let them kill each other.

 

[Scouse]

Ahh, politics. Gotta love it.

Yeah. And when I pointed that out to raven he completely missed it.

 

[Raven]

You didn't say anything of the sort.

You suggested that a party should blindly follow its leader, regardless of personal opinion or the facts at hand. A tremendously dangerous thing to do.

 

[Scouse]

You didn't say anything of the sort.

You suggested that a party should blindly follow its leader, regardless of personal opinion or the facts at hand. A tremendously dangerous thing to do.

No. I didn't say anything even close to that:

Actually, whilst I largely agree with you there @Raven, in this instance THE most important issue is whether he's right. And people seem to be focussing less on that and more on your correct-but-less-important argument.

and:

[Raven said: ↑

Whether he is right or not is not the issue.]

Ahh, politics. Gotta love it.

Whether he is right or not IS the issue. Whether we should bomb or not bomb is way more important an issue than whether Labour uses the whip. And as I said - I agree it should be a free vote. But I said that people were stupidly focussing on the lesser issue - and you went ahead and kept focussing on it, and in your anti-corbyn rage missed the argument completely.


Like I said just now, before reading this:

Raven, really, you're getting too close to the arguments and are clearly full of rage if that's how you're acting. You're so full of rage that can't follow arguments at all and you're not reading posts...

Why not chill out a bit before you pull a toht-style hissy fit?

 

[Raven]

What are you waffling on about now? What gives you the impression I am angry?

 

[Scouse]

What are you waffling on about now? What gives you the impression I am angry?

'cause you're talking even more shit than usual. Normally you show you can read, if not always comprehend. Care to engage with the factual, evidenced, argument above?

Unlike you I didn't even make any of it up!

 

[Raven]

Just because I think that in a democracy all MPs should be free to vote on any issue, especially whether or not we drop bombs on people. You seem to think that in this case they should all fall in line with their leader, for the single reason that you happen to personally agree with their leader on this issue.

Just because I think you aren't quite as clever as you think you are, and seem to have far too much spare time on your hands to try and get into deep and meaningful debates (on a gaming forum!) and just post and post and post until nobody cares, doesn't mean I am angry, just that I can't be arsed.

Anyway, I don't need to back up my opinion, it is what it is.

 

[Scouse]

Just because I think that in a democracy all MPs should be free to vote on any issue, especially whether or not we drop bombs on people. You seem to think that in this case they should all fall in line with their leader, for the single reason that you happen to personally agree with their leader on this issue..

Are you fucking retarded? Read what has been written, twice now, above.

 

[Raven]

Ok, ok. You are saying the most important thing is that some nutcase is right or wrong (or not actually right or wrong, just agrees with you)

I am saying the most important thing is that a democratic decision is reached.

Ok, got it.

Also, the name calling seems to point to you being the one getting angry... I know your tax dodge is under threat and all but you need to learn to relax a little...take it easy a bit.

 

[Talivar]

Of all the people in both parties at the moment he is by far most likely to let everyone have their say. The ones shouting for his head on a pike and to have him removed are surely the ones you should be annoyed at as they are the ones trying to destroy democracy?

 

[Raven]

Just because a bunch of unions and students voted him in as leader doesn't mean he was democratically elected. He got in because labour broke their system of choosing a leader, ironically after the unions got millibland in. If the MPs had their way labour would currently be in power with David milliband as leader.

 

[Talivar]

But you keep wanting a process where everyone has a fair say, Cameron doesn't like that and that can be seen by how rarely his party speaks in opposition to him. Old labour doesn't like that either and that is why they are attacking the new Corbanites style labour. You say you want Democracy but want rid of the only person who seems to make efforts to achieve it?.

 

[Raven]

How is telling people how to vote in any way shape or form, democratic? (and the same for the Tories actually...but we are not talking about them)

No one single person should dictate party policy, ever, and that counts for all parties, especially when the choice is war or no war.

 

[Talivar]

He has not told anyone how to vote, i dont get why you keep saying that. The general consensus is that there is going to be a free vote. He sent all his MPs a letter detailing his views and how HE was going to vote but hasn't told them they have to do the same.

 

[Raven]

The general consensus now is that there will be a free vote. The general consensus this morning was that there wasn't. Shadow cabinet don't run around moaning about their leader for nothing, especially not one as comic as Corbyn. He seems to have backed down, which is good.

 

[Talivar]

They do when they want him to make a different decision, its all about accountability especially after the IRAQ fiasco. They want it to be the labour party that agrees so whole of the government agrees. This way if it goes wrong again they dont face the backlash of people pointing fingers saying why did you not listen to the rest!

 

[Talivar]

Look at it another way, its not him making threats and spitting out the dummy because they didnt agree with him. This morning UNNAMED sources made threats as a form of blackmail to try and get the decision changed. He himself has spent the time discussing it with them all, and isnt that what you say you want?

 

[Raven]

Well no, the Iraq was is a perfect example of why one person should never make that decision.

 

[Talivar]

Do you have some inside information that none of us are privy to because you seem adamant you know behind the scenes he has secretly forced them all to follow his decision. Surely you are not just going by the unnamed sources the media talked about this morning?