The dumbing down of MMOs

[vayasen]

Its something im sure people are aware of, especially those of us who have played these games for over a decade.


Why do I have some PR guy in a WAR video (or was it Mr Jacobs himself) telling me that 'in depth systems' where you spend time to become RECOGNISED in your craft is not fun?

Hes telling me that its more fun to have something that can be done by everybody, so in the end is of no consequence in reality.

Something thats easy and little effort and no time = reward?



Same with quests.

I remember a day where you either :

A- didnt have many quests, thats not so good.

B- Had to actually READ some info about what you were doing....and in turn spend more time getting 'INTO' the games lore and appreciating what game makers had provided.

Now, however, we all know what happens, its been dumbed down massively. You grab 4 quests, hell who cares what is wanted, look at the mini map and run there and kill stuff or pick something up if its glowing. Keep doing it until it flashes on sscreen that you are done and run back (using the mini map of course).

WHY THE HELL DO THEY WANT TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO IGNORE THE GAME AND WIZZ THROUGH THE HARD DEV WORK OF AKING THE GAME WORLD.


Cmon, admit it (I do) that you grab quests and run off where mini map is telling you to go and not give a hoot why u are going, you just want to get the '10 badgers arses' and run back as quick as possible for the exp and next quest.

Worst of all, these WOW'esque style quests just lead to 5 min PUG's where nobody cares who you are with, just pile trhough the solo quests then join for 5 mins to kill a 'boss mob' then 'k thanks bye' as you pile off for more solo snoredom. I thought these games were Massvively MULTIPLAYER! Please dont say we will all be soloing our way to max level apart from the odd quest here and there we cant solo so we grab a 5 min team????? Where is the advantage of making sociable groups? (please no mindless babble from a PR person about the advantages of groups which fools nobody who knows anything about anything.....(new exciting innovation of 'secnarios' any1? Copied right from WOW))



Mythic, is this the model you really want? Id hope for a bit more tbh. Instead of following the path of a certain other game which other dev companies take the easy route of copying...because lot of people play the other game....so it MUST be right eh?

Nobody becomes attached with areas in games these days, they run from quest hub to quest hub, grab the quests, follow the mini map radar and then move to next hub. all the hard work of the devs is steamrollered for the most part.


I really hope Mythic try to insert some of their own innovations into this game, rather than copying WOWs quest system and Battleground System (please, dont even fricking think about saying we have 'Scenarios' so we arnt copying.

The one thing that ought to set it aside, is the RVR, MASSED RVR. However, I have a horrible feeling this will be dumbed down too.

If it is, the game will be found out pretty quick imo.

 

[Raven]

As far as I can tell some of the quests will be different from the usual collect 10 fish testicals, kill 20 bats etc. The zone wide quests interest me a lot where you can jump in at any time and get rewarded on your contribution.

The crafting system should be usable by all but to do really do well in it, it should provide a challenge, be it rare materials, recipes or even some sort of skill element be it timing or some sort of mini game? If everyone can make everything it gets a little pointless and to be honest they may aswell not bother with crafting at all.

As for the exping, I prefer to solo in MMOs except grouping up for raids. I like the community aspect of the games sure but I like to go at my own pace do what I like without worring about AFKers, idiots or time contraints. I think a decent MMO should cater for all types.

 

[Dervish]

Its something im sure people are aware of, especially those of us who have played these games for over a decade.

There you go mate you answered your own question straight off. We've been playing MMO's for 10 years. BUT: these new MMO's aren't written for us anymore. The cat is out of the bag and now accompanied by 10 million couldn't care less subscribers with multinational currency to burn.

Let's think of ourselves as pioneers who had a part to play in the shaping of the genre which has now shaped itself beyond us and out of all recognition.

Or we can be less prissy and PR-like and just admit the genre has moved on and get dowwn to enjoying what it has become and let old dogs lie....?

 

[Aurelius LH]

Part of what we see is just a reflection of the fact that way back ten years ago, the designers of the game went for it with their personal visions of how it should work out, because there wasn't anything else around to model the game on. Now though, with the supposed 'maturity' of the genre, we tend to see a lot of repetition because it's both easier to adopt existing ideas (not always consciously- there's a whole bunch of players out there who think they 'know' what a mmorpg should be like because they have played a couple and thus formed an image of what they expect to see in the new one), and the financial guys pointing out that 'that model made millions, maverick designs nowadays tend to sink without trace, guess which we'll finance'. Ironic, although hardware and bandwidth costs are proportionately lower then they were 'back in the day', investment required to get a serious mmorpg off the ground is so crazily high you need a big player to fund it, and those tend to be more 'risk averse'.

Some unusual ideas make it into production, the latest I can think of is Pirates of the Burning Sea, but they aim for a smaller, more niche, market with the correspondingly lower profit levels. EA/Mythic are not a company who think small in that way (unfortunately, from my perspective, but they are a 'big investment/huge return' modelled group and stick to what they know). Sure Mythic started with a slightly offbeat design in DAoC compared to their competitors, but there wasn't much earth-shatteringly unique about it on release - interesting to see how many things that DAoC did are now becoming part of the template for other newer games though.

 

[Bahumat]

I get the impression Warhammer want you to get to the max level fairly easily. Then they can let you all enjoy rvr.

WoW almost punishes you for re-rolling. Takes ages to xp

 

[arknor]

As for the exping, I prefer to solo in MMOs except grouping up for raids. I like the community aspect of the games sure but I like to go at my own pace do what I like without worring about AFKers, idiots or time contraints. I think a decent MMO should cater for all types.

me to it was alright when i was younger but now i have a family of my own i dont have time to try to find groups all the time just to get some experience , for dungeons i dont mind as i can do them when its convenient but what if i only want to play for 30-60minutes it can take that long to get a group in alot of mmos.

i like to jump in and solo exp, maybe team up with some friends if there online but i dont want to be forced to group for exp ive had enough of that in other mmos.

 

[Aurelius LH]

I get the impression Warhammer want you to get to the max level fairly easily. Then they can let you all enjoy rvr.

WoW almost punishes you for re-rolling. Takes ages to xp

I agree about the WoW approach, but hope you are wrong about the real plan in WAR - those of us who don't particularly want to be involved in PvP/RvR will end up at a loose end, as happens with so many other games.

Giving a more immersive game, with more depth, means more people (especially those who don't PvP and thus are looking for other games than the general run out there, as well as those with limited or erratic playing times) who will play and stay in the game. If folks want to XP quickly, there's nothing wrong with that and best of luck to them. For those who want a more immersive setting though, there's precious little out there in the current mmorpg universe, and I hope the WAR folks note that and take advantage of it.

For some, there's depth to be had in a good RP setting, and since both EA/Mythic and GOA seem adamant they will have properly policed and supported RP servers, that's where I'll be playing.

A RvR/PvP game with depth in other areas is not impossible, just unusual... hopefully WAR will cover all the bases rather than settle for the usual (and doubtless easier to maintain and develop, and so relatively cheaper) path.

 

[Fefner]

Im just gonna rvr my way to level 40

yes ppl will want to wizz to level 40 to enjoy end game and others will want explore and enjoy the whole game, the game is being made to suit everyone.
As long its all fun i dont care.

 

[Faeldawn]

I get the impression Warhammer want you to get to the max level fairly easily. Then they can let you all enjoy rvr.

WoW almost punishes you for re-rolling. Takes ages to xp

Ahh, now heres what your missing...the idea is that you can pvp from level 1 and it has a bearing on the overall state of the rvr (i guess you can kinda call it rvr) conflict

The idea, as im led to believe, is that you don't actually need to ever pve if you don't want too. Conversely, you don't ever have to pvp if pve is your bag

 

[arknor]

whos going to play war solely for pve content though? 80% of the end game zones are pvp

 

[Dervish]

For those who need their PvE fix there are supposedly 12,000 Tome unlocks....

 

[Faeldawn]

whos going to play war solely for pve content though? 80% of the end game zones are pvp

If there was no significant pve, EA would lose many of their potential customers, not just those who like to solely pve. The vast majority of players like a good balance of pvp and pve in their gaming

 

[Fester Addams]

In reality I think the problem is that people want it easy, sure, you me and a few others want to have to read the quest log, figure out where and what to get and then complete the quests but we are the minority by far.

Most players, whatever they say, want their spoilers, walkthroughs and 'cheats'.

As an example I can tell about a few friends who were really into Oblivion (think that was the game), they stated they loved the game but at the same time thay said they hated that alchemy destroyed it, aparently there was a bug that allowed you to become all but imortal thanx to alchemy at a very low level.
Each time the discussion came upp I simply asked them why they simply did not play the game without abusing the alchemy "bug"...
It was amazing to see the expressions on their faces and hear their replies, to them it was inconcievable to not abuse it if it was abusable even to the extent that it ruined their game experience.

Its the same here, there will be no secrets, there will be nothing hidden all will be documented and searchable on webpages.

The developers talk of mystical doors that it is all but impossible to find the lever that opens it, that one player accidently stumbles on a lever and pulls it and thus allowed another player or group of players to access a mystical area.

Poppycock!
What they forget is that there are people out there who consider it a challenge to connect such dots and among thise people you have individuals that will get access to the code if need be to get at the info, to go that far is usually not needed but they will manage it.

Thus secrets, joy of exploration, diving head first into the game and enjoying it, yes you can do it but only if you choose to.

I hope the game will be preset to not show minimap hints but allow you to switch this on if you wish to.
Conan is a perfect example of how it should not work, minimap hints is on per default and it is very exact (and like you say, stuff shimmer).

The proposed crafting system however in warhammer does not seem like a dumbed down version, true as its not a recipe based system you wont have to grind mobs for that recipe drop but then again where is the inteligence in repeat killing a mob to get that 0.01% drop chance to kick in?

With a trial by error system as proposed by the WAR team you can actually experiment to see what you get.

Additionally to encourage experimentation you have the "somthing amazing happened" case wich does not have to be static.

I would however hope that they mess with the recipes, adding and removing recipes from time to time or even have it so that not everyone gets the same stuff by combining the same components.

 

[Flimgoblin]

quests you have to figure things out for turn into spoiler websites (warcry quest database for daoc anyone? allakhazam's item db?)

The few "wow, didn't know that" things are there only for a couple of people who find it at first - then it's all over the boards and no longer mysterious (ML10 in daoc? One person got to have the "fun" of trying to figure out how to get into it..)

There's a reason games are dumbed down with things like quest helpers, minimaps, not having perma death

If you're worried about battlegrounds/scenarios - have you looked into the open world RvR stuff?

 

[Aurelius LH]

quests you have to figure things out for turn into spoiler websites (warcry quest database for daoc anyone? allakhazam's item db?)

True, but as I read it, Vayasen's suggestion is 'have the info you need to do the quest in the text, not be led around the minimap by a pointy arrow' lets you get more involved in the storyline of the game and the 'world' you are playing in. In real life you can travel the country perfectly well by using your GPS software to direct you along the road, turn left or right, and get out at your destination. That's 'efficient', but rather misses out on watching the scenery and seeing places you might want to visit later, or talking to the people, or trying out the local food or music...

It's common to run into a 'quest' where a totally pointless NPC wants you to gather completely useless items which he wants for no sensible reason, and gives you money and XP for carrying (frequently at low level, from somewhere within a few yards of him...) back to him. Replace those with properly plotted NPCs asking for things that make sense, with an explanation of what they are, what they do, and how it might make any inpact on the world no matter how minor, and you give the player a choice to change what they do from 'mindless arrow following and button pressing' to 'learning a bit about a society the character is in'. Your choice if you take time reading the text, seeing how it all interlocks, and picking up 'lore' about the world. You just want the XP - fine, turn on the minimap arrows and go for it! You want something with a bit more depth, it's there for you.

There was a fair amount of 'cultural backstory' in DAoC if you took notice of it, whether you did or not was entirely up to you though. Hopefully that base has been built on for WAR, and ways found for some of it to matter more than just being 'nice to know' as it usually is in mmorpgs.

The few "wow, didn't know that" things are there only for a couple of people who find it at first - then it's all over the boards and no longer mysterious (ML10 in daoc? One person got to have the "fun" of trying to figure out how to get into it..)

Not quite - everyone who enjoyed puzzles got the 'fun' of trying to work it out, only one person was first to actually do it. If some people got fun from the thinking and puzzle solving (as long as the 'puzzle' is logical and reasonable, certainly there are some in games that are just so random, disconnected or plain silly they detract from involvement in the scenario instead of adding to it), that's a definite plus for the game. The only people who get annoyed at thing like that are the 'completist' types who wanted the stuff from the new area NOW, and they only 'lost out' until others opened it up.... hardly a devastating loss, and not a view I have a lot of time for in a multiplayer game since it really revolves around an "I demand all stuff be available to ME whenever I want it" approach.

Incidentally, try the example of UO - there's a HUGE amount of backstory and history about places, items, magic in there that's developed over the years (often in a damn silly, inconsistent and haphazard way, sadly) that has been on boards and forums whenever it was found - but the size of the playerbase, the age of the game, and the turnover of players means very few folks actually still know a lot of it, and you can watch the 'wow' factor regularly when you see someone explain to other players just why something is there, or named that, or does some particular thing. I'd love to see a game where that sort of depth had been developed with more sense, consideration, and consistency.

There's a reason games are dumbed down with things like quest helpers, minimaps, not having perma death

Absolutely true - but there's also no reason why those should not be open to turning off if people don't want to use them, or (as I'd prefer), need a conscious decision to turn them ON. If the idea is to appeal to as many playstyles as possible, adding options like those are good, even if only a few thousand players use them, since it's not a huge coding issue if you set it up properly and needs very little support afterwards.

 

[Aurelius LH]

whos going to play war solely for pve content though? 80% of the end game zones are pvp

I'll probably be entirely PvE when it comes to fighting, but I'll be teaming up with others for some of it, and talking to folks in-game, looking at the graphics of the world, learning the backstory. That will keep me busy enough thanks!

And quite possibly never see the 'end game', because that's not the objective I'm playing for.....

 

[vayasen]

I dont agree that a 'on/off' button is what is required for mini map pointers.


Lets face it, many people, regardless of their outlook, if given a choice betwen faster EXP or slower EXP will take the quicker option ;p



Having a mini map dumbing the game down so you not only can ignore whatever the npc says but dont even have to look what you are heading to go do in most cases.

I cannot fathom why Devs want this????

Seriously they might as well just have NPCs with ZERO text and question info......but just click the npc and the mini map pointer appears without the pointless chat. The u just run to the point hes told u to go and come back. Job done.


thats more or less where the dumbing down is heading at the moment and people that DO want a bit more suffer greatly if they are reading the quests as the dumbed down folk pile through at doulbe the speed and start capturing keeps.

 

[Faeldawn]

thats more or less where the dumbing down is heading at the moment and people that DO want a bit more suffer greatly if they are reading the quests as the dumbed down folk pile through at doulbe the speed and start capturing keeps.

Thats a matter of opinion, for some players half the fun is in the storyline and the lore. By taking the time to get into the game, rather then racing over all the content to get to max level, their rewards are aguably far more tangible. In all actuality, it's the powergamers who suffer in all these games, they powergame their way to the top, then QQ about lack of content when they have simply skipped over it all in the process.

Hare and tortoise

 

[arknor]

Seriously they might as well just have NPCs with ZERO text and question info......but just click the npc and the mini map pointer appears without the pointless chat. The u just run to the point hes told u to go and come back. Job done.


thats more or less where the dumbing down is heading at the moment and people that DO want a bit more suffer greatly if they are reading the quests as the dumbed down folk pile through at doulbe the speed and start capturing keeps. __________________

i tend to skip heavy text because reading it all annoys me , EQ2 was great how everything was spoken and all the voices were pretty much uniqe it made all the dialog intresting for me i wish some others mmos would have followed there lead.

theres much more immersion when you dont have to read text all the time

 

[vayasen]

I agree speach is great, but lets face it, no game will be 100% speach quest (least not for a long long time)

So instead they make the 'ignore the text and follow this homing radar' system.

 

[Rayko]

I very much liked the idea of "Epic" quests in daoc... Specific to your class, each one of them being a long story starting at an early level and ofcourse ending at your maximum level...

Yeah, that's the type of "Quests" I liked the most

 

[Uliea]

I don't mind the map information on the radar. After spending many hours in DAoC and WoW looking for something or someone for ages and getting annoyed i used to go and find coordinates from websites.
Then again if the directions from the quest log are good enough there shouldn't be a need for an X on the map. One way would be to highlight the key words in the quest log, so people who don't want to read can scan quickly and see "in the Swamp of Horrors near the Dead Tree" and know that by looking on the main map they can see the swamp area and head in that direction and find that tree.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Absolutely true - but there's also no reason why those should not be open to turning off if people don't want to use them, or (as I'd prefer), need a conscious decision to turn them ON. If the idea is to appeal to as many playstyles as possible, adding options like those are good, even if only a few thousand players use them, since it's not a huge coding issue if you set it up properly and needs very little support afterwards.

Didn't say they shouldn't be heck even make it the default, but those red arrows need to be available if you want to avoid it being Warhammer: Age of Alt-Tab

That said, I don't think anyone would ask for a perma-death tickbox in their preferences when creating a new character - some things people have realised are a lot less fun than they sound in theory

 

[Flimgoblin]

I agree speach is great, but lets face it, no game will be 100% speach quest (least not for a long long time)

So instead they make the 'ignore the text and follow this homing radar' system.

After playing Gothic 3 recently (where they have speech for all the dialogue - single player game, not an MMO) I find I put on subtitles and skip through the text as fast as I can read it, rather than waiting for the speech

So even when games become 100% speech it's not going to stop people from just rushing through the quests.
(that said I still read the dialogue, because otherwise I'd be playing progressquest )

 

[Aqe]

I plan to solo a whopping 1-2 hours until i reach max level.

 

[Aurelius LH]

Didn't say they shouldn't be heck even make it the default, but those red arrows need to be available if you want to avoid it being Warhammer: Age of Alt-Tab

Wasn't meaning to imply there was a 'right or wrong' there - but I reckon based on that comment, we should campaign to have the Empire capital renamed AltTabdorf in your honour

 

[Flimgoblin]

Wasn't meaning to imply there was a 'right or wrong' there - but I reckon based on that comment, we should campaign to have the Empire capital renamed AltTabdorf in your honour

That's brilliant, Alt-tabdorf. Superb.

 

[Mastade]

Its evolution baby!

Personally i have always played some sort of multiplayer game. I simply just love competing against other people. In the first MMOs you either couldn't fight eachother or it simply just sucked to do so. When DAoC was launched it had what no other MMOs ever had: A real competative side, that in some way was similiar to what games as CS and starcraft/warcraft had. You had groups fighting eachother in a big universe. Just AWSOME..

Mythic knows where their strength lies. They know what people expect of their upcoming game. Its in what made DAoC unique compared to other MMOs. Its in the RvR part of the game. I'd rather they focus on that part than on how truthful their quests storyline is to the warhammer universe or what not.

I have this idea that Mythic didnt expect the RvR part to be as popular as it got in DAoC. Thats why i think(when i think positive) the RvR part was so imbalanced at the release of DAoC. Its why i hope they use most of their precious time making sure the game is perfectly balanced before EA forces them to release the game..

 

[Enli]

masta, WAR or AoC ? where will we squash stuff?

 

[Faeldawn]

I have this idea that Mythic didnt expect the RvR part to be as popular as it got in DAoC. Thats why i think(when i think positive) the RvR part was so imbalanced at the release of DAoC. Its why i hope they use most of their precious time making sure the game is perfectly balanced before EA forces them to release the game..

In 6 years of DAoC Mythic never got it perfect, it's simply not possile unless you have very basic generic classes (Healer, Warrior, Mage, Rogue) that every race can use. When you have unique, complicated career lines balance is a lot more difficult.

They could beta it for 10 years and it still wouldn't be perfectly balanced, and to be honest, it's probably more fun if there is some imbalance. Where would mmo's be without players having something to whine about