The dumbing down of MMOs

[Linnet]

I think that back in those days, MMORPG designers tended to assume that class balance wasn't so important up front because you could always just tweak it later.

 

[Ctuchik]

I agree speach is great, but lets face it, no game will be 100% speach quest (least not for a long long time)

EQ2 is. atleast i have never found a quest NPC that havent had voice over quest dialogues...

 

[Raven]

quests you have to figure things out for turn into spoiler websites (warcry quest database for daoc anyone? allakhazam's item db?)

Yes, but there is choice there, you don't have to go to a spoiler site to complete a quest, you can go by the NPC story and directions if you wish. It does spoil the immersion and the experience of exploring new areas when you habe big flashing arrows on the screen telling you where to go.

 

[Dervish]

I agree Raven but we are kinda MMO veterans, consider are noobs we are hoping will be attracted by WAR. These people will need those arrows, at least at first. It was one of the things that made WoW so 'popular'.

As I understand it the 'red arrow' syndrome is obvious at lower tier levels but merely serve to indicate a very large 'area' on the map by tier 4. So as you progress the hand holding becomes less. It's just another thing to balance really - the needs/wants of the oldtimers and the reality of being a noob and needing hand holding. Would it be difficult to put some code in to remove all the obvious hand holding straight off and effectively take you to the tier 4 'you're on your own now big boy' level of 'red arrow help'? Probably not difficult but way down the priority list. An option to remove quest markers must surely be simple to do but where do you stop? Remove markers from quest givers also so we are back at early DAoC and right-clicking every NPC we meet? I think that would lose the immersion feeling, somebody with a quest that needed doing would let you know rather than being quiet about it and the mechanic for that is a flashing beacon over their heads. I guess the map markers are a follow up to that. And don't forget a lot of people will EXPECT the beacons and quest markers.

Personally I would love to play it all in 'least hand holding tier 4 mode' but I doubt I will get the option. Something much nearer to DAoC than WoW but actually I'm hopeful. WAR is taking the line that ranks 1-40 are learning to play your class not a grind and all in preparation for when the real game starts which is endgame RvR. That of course, for all it's glory, is where WoW dies.

 

[Faeldawn]

Yes, but there is choice there, you don't have to go to a spoiler site to complete a quest, you can go by the NPC story and directions if you wish. It does spoil the immersion and the experience of exploring new areas when you habe big flashing arrows on the screen telling you where to go.

I completely agree.

Unfortunately the majority of players nowadays seem to want to be spoon-fed

 

[Faeldawn]

Remove markers from quest givers also so we are back at early DAoC and right-clicking every NPC we meet? I think that would lose the immersion feeling, somebody with a quest that needed doing would let you know rather than being quiet about it and the mechanic for that is a flashing beacon over their heads. I guess the map markers are a follow up to that. And don't forget a lot of people will EXPECT the beacons and quest markers.

Some games have a text speech displayed when you walk near someone with a quest to offer (as in they are trying to catch your attention), so you would actually have to stop and take notice of what the NPC's are doing and saying rather than simply run blindly to the flashy circle (ooooohhhh, glowy!!!)

 

[Inso]

I really hope Mythic try to insert some of their own innovations into this game, rather than copying WOWs quest system and Battleground System (please, dont even fricking think about saying we have 'Scenarios' so we arnt copying.

Questing is still doing Objective A to please Guy B or something to that effect. Did WoW invent this? Though I saw WoW was gonna get achievements and bragging rights. This all sounds very new and fresh, and nothing that's been ripped off WAR/Steam/Xbox...

Basically, if it works, dont fix it.

 

[Ctuchik]

Yes, but there is choice there, you don't have to go to a spoiler site to complete a quest, you can go by the NPC story and directions if you wish. It does spoil the immersion and the experience of exploring new areas when you habe big flashing arrows on the screen telling you where to go.

turn them off?

 

[Jupitus]

Its something im sure people are aware of, especially those of us who have played these games for over a decade.


Why do I have some PR guy in a WAR video (or was it Mr Jacobs himself) telling me that 'in depth systems' where you spend time to become RECOGNISED in your craft is not fun?

Hes telling me that its more fun to have something that can be done by everybody, so in the end is of no consequence in reality.

Something thats easy and little effort and no time = reward?



Same with quests.

I remember a day where you either :

A- didnt have many quests, thats not so good.

B- Had to actually READ some info about what you were doing....and in turn spend more time getting 'INTO' the games lore and appreciating what game makers had provided.

Now, however, we all know what happens, its been dumbed down massively. You grab 4 quests, hell who cares what is wanted, look at the mini map and run there and kill stuff or pick something up if its glowing. Keep doing it until it flashes on sscreen that you are done and run back (using the mini map of course).

WHY THE HELL DO THEY WANT TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO IGNORE THE GAME AND WIZZ THROUGH THE HARD DEV WORK OF AKING THE GAME WORLD.


Cmon, admit it (I do) that you grab quests and run off where mini map is telling you to go and not give a hoot why u are going, you just want to get the '10 badgers arses' and run back as quick as possible for the exp and next quest.

Worst of all, these WOW'esque style quests just lead to 5 min PUG's where nobody cares who you are with, just pile trhough the solo quests then join for 5 mins to kill a 'boss mob' then 'k thanks bye' as you pile off for more solo snoredom. I thought these games were Massvively MULTIPLAYER! Please dont say we will all be soloing our way to max level apart from the odd quest here and there we cant solo so we grab a 5 min team????? Where is the advantage of making sociable groups? (please no mindless babble from a PR person about the advantages of groups which fools nobody who knows anything about anything.....(new exciting innovation of 'secnarios' any1? Copied right from WOW))



Mythic, is this the model you really want? Id hope for a bit more tbh. Instead of following the path of a certain other game which other dev companies take the easy route of copying...because lot of people play the other game....so it MUST be right eh?

Nobody becomes attached with areas in games these days, they run from quest hub to quest hub, grab the quests, follow the mini map radar and then move to next hub. all the hard work of the devs is steamrollered for the most part.


I really hope Mythic try to insert some of their own innovations into this game, rather than copying WOWs quest system and Battleground System (please, dont even fricking think about saying we have 'Scenarios' so we arnt copying.

The one thing that ought to set it aside, is the RVR, MASSED RVR. However, I have a horrible feeling this will be dumbed down too.

If it is, the game will be found out pretty quick imo.

Bloody hell - Jup in agreement with Vayasen Shocker!

In all truth, probably why I don't really like them anymore.

 

[Ctuchik]

WHY THE HELL DO THEY WANT TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO IGNORE THE GAME AND WIZZ THROUGH THE HARD DEV WORK OF AKING THE GAME WORLD.

because no matter how they do it there will always be ppl that does it.

i'm sure the quest markers will be able to be toggled off, so those that WANT to can. but they cant really make these desitions from what the minority wants and leave them out totally. hence you can by 99% certanity toggle quest markers on and off, just like in AoC.

besides, i'm not sure the devs actually care all that much as long as they get paid.

 

[SilverHood]

The problem occurs when the journey to end game is less exciting than end game itself.

Taking wow as an example... Me and the group of 3 others I played with decided to do every single instance on the way to level 60. By the time we hit lvl 30, we were pretty damn good at knowing how each other reacted, and we plowed through instances at lower levels than reccomended, and had a blast doing it.

Second time round, ended up doing it with "randoms". It was at the very least painful. So I whizzed through the content as quickly as I could to get to the end game, which I could then do with my lovely guildies and friendly guilds.

If you missed the boat, and started the game 3-4 months after release, getting groups together could be tricky. So you raced through the content to get to end game. We had people in our guild that had never grouped with anyone until they joined a guild group for some instance run throughs while they were 58-59. They'd just raced through everything in about 10 days so they could play with friends from DAOC.

It's a design flaw more than anything, and it comes down to having a meaningless time between learning how to play and the end game.

 

[Mellon]

Its something im sure people are aware of, especially those of us who have played these games for over a decade.


Why do I have some PR guy in a WAR video (or was it Mr Jacobs himself) telling me that 'in depth systems' where you spend time to become RECOGNISED in your craft is not fun?

Hes telling me that its more fun to have something that can be done by everybody, so in the end is of no consequence in reality.

Something thats easy and little effort and no time = reward?



Same with quests.

I remember a day where you either :

A- didnt have many quests, thats not so good.

B- Had to actually READ some info about what you were doing....and in turn spend more time getting 'INTO' the games lore and appreciating what game makers had provided.

Now, however, we all know what happens, its been dumbed down massively. You grab 4 quests, hell who cares what is wanted, look at the mini map and run there and kill stuff or pick something up if its glowing. Keep doing it until it flashes on sscreen that you are done and run back (using the mini map of course).

WHY THE HELL DO THEY WANT TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO IGNORE THE GAME AND WIZZ THROUGH THE HARD DEV WORK OF AKING THE GAME WORLD.


Cmon, admit it (I do) that you grab quests and run off where mini map is telling you to go and not give a hoot why u are going, you just want to get the '10 badgers arses' and run back as quick as possible for the exp and next quest.

Worst of all, these WOW'esque style quests just lead to 5 min PUG's where nobody cares who you are with, just pile trhough the solo quests then join for 5 mins to kill a 'boss mob' then 'k thanks bye' as you pile off for more solo snoredom. I thought these games were Massvively MULTIPLAYER! Please dont say we will all be soloing our way to max level apart from the odd quest here and there we cant solo so we grab a 5 min team????? Where is the advantage of making sociable groups? (please no mindless babble from a PR person about the advantages of groups which fools nobody who knows anything about anything.....(new exciting innovation of 'secnarios' any1? Copied right from WOW))



Mythic, is this the model you really want? Id hope for a bit more tbh. Instead of following the path of a certain other game which other dev companies take the easy route of copying...because lot of people play the other game....so it MUST be right eh?

Nobody becomes attached with areas in games these days, they run from quest hub to quest hub, grab the quests, follow the mini map radar and then move to next hub. all the hard work of the devs is steamrollered for the most part.


I really hope Mythic try to insert some of their own innovations into this game, rather than copying WOWs quest system and Battleground System (please, dont even fricking think about saying we have 'Scenarios' so we arnt copying.

The one thing that ought to set it aside, is the RVR, MASSED RVR. However, I have a horrible feeling this will be dumbed down too.

If it is, the game will be found out pretty quick imo.

I'd like to go even further back than 10 years with this discussion. in the early 90-s I was playing MUDs, completely presented in text. (I was not connected by the internet, but by direct call to the server of the game) Some of the later and cooler ones had ascii-graphics drawing up dungeons with a D for the dragon, @ for you, g for goblins etc. There were usually two or three quests to do every lvl, and the rest was serious grinding. After about 100-200days playtime, you could have a character that was competitive in PvP.

To be able to do anything tricky in those games you had to have huge skills with your typewritertecnique and you had to code extensively cool macros. The popular ones were played by maybe 2000 people, and hosted on a university server somewhere. Everyone playing these was a _serious_ computer geek, and it was nearly impossible to get anyone to pay any money for playing. So most were run for free.

Since then the concept of what a _good_ online game is has changed quite radically. The idea of killing stuff for rewards is still there. The idea to put an air of adventure and your ability to create an avatar

 

[Mellon]

Bah, posting error. Ignore the post above, here is what it was supposed to look like.

Its something im sure people are aware of, especially those of us who have played these games for over a decade.


[snip]


Now, however, we all know what happens, its been dumbed down massively. You grab 4 quests, hell who cares what is wanted, look at the mini map and run there and kill stuff or pick something up if its glowing. Keep doing it until it flashes on sscreen that you are done and run back (using the mini map of course).

WHY THE HELL DO THEY WANT TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO IGNORE THE GAME AND WIZZ THROUGH THE HARD DEV WORK OF AKING THE GAME WORLD.

[snip]

Mythic, is this the model you really want? Id hope for a bit more tbh. Instead of following the path of a certain other game which other dev companies take the easy route of copying...because lot of people play the other game....so it MUST be right eh?

[snip]

I really hope Mythic try to insert some of their own innovations into this game, rather than copying WOWs quest system and Battleground System (please, dont even fricking think about saying we have 'Scenarios' so we arnt copying.

The one thing that ought to set it aside, is the RVR, MASSED RVR. However, I have a horrible feeling this will be dumbed down too.

If it is, the game will be found out pretty quick imo.

I'd like to go even further back than 10 years with this discussion. in the early 90-s I was playing the MMOs of that age, called MUDs (Multi User Dungeons), completely presented in text. (I was not connected by the internet, but by direct modem-call to the server of the game) Some of the later and cooler ones had ascii-graphics drawing up dungeons with a D for the dragon, @ for you, g for goblins etc. There were somtimes quests but most was serious grinding. After about 100-200days playtime, you could have a character that was competitive in PvP.

To be able to do anything tricky in those games you had to have huge skills with your typewritertecnique and you had to code extensively cool macros. The popular ones were played by as many as 2000 people, and hosted on a university server somewhere. Everyone playing these was a _serious_ computer geek, and it was nearly impossible to get anyone to pay any money for playing. So most were run for free.

Since then the concept of what a _good_ online game is has changed quite radically. The idea of killing stuff for rewards, playing together with others and playing against others is still there. As is the idea to put an air of adventure and your ability to control an avatar. But most everything else is not.

I really like most of the dumb-downs that has been done since then. Not only because it makes it less of a hassle for me to play, but because they enable something much more important. They makes it possible for more people to actually play the games. More people playing => More possibility to make money from the games => more wellproduced games with new features.

Imagine what WAR would look like if it was released with a prediction of 3 000 customers total.

So, textbased MUDs was first. Your character had stats and levels and items. Since then that's standard for MMOs. Then the ones with ascii-graphic added a map (wich honestly dumbed the game down a fair bit). Since then that's standard for MMOs. Then there came cute sprite-animated avatars that was actually customable! (choose girl/boy and a colour scheme) quality like Zelda on the NEZ. Since then, graphic avatars in a graphic world are standard for MMOs. Some later MMO made the avatars into 3d-models. I have heard said that WoW introduced the mini-map to the MMO-world (taken from RTS's and flightsimulators), and since then noone would dream of doing a game without a minimap. So every MMO-developer steal most of the things that has worked before and try to improve them a bit, and add their own flavour to them.

As a side note. I think EVE has an awesome idea in the huge zones that can be controlled by guilds and then used to produce spacebattles. It is also very nice that you can be useful in those battles already after playing the game for only a couple of weeks. Similar effects I hope for in more future MMOs

I think WAR has several features that will live on and become standard for the MMOs in the future. PQs for example, they are great. The big RvR-thing affecting everyone and being affected by everyone is another really good idea for the teamspirit. And the Tome of Knowledge is just awesome fun for us explorators and achievers.


Sorry about the long rant. In conclusion: Dumbing down a game is indeed somewhat annoying to me, I like a challenge for my brain as well as for my triggerfinger. But in the bigger picture I really appreciate the dumbing down of games, because it means a bigger market for the game, so better development for me to enjoy. Because even WoW is way more fun than the MUDs.

Hopefully, in the future, the mmo-market will be so big that companies will dare to start doing more niche-games. So that there can be hard challenges for us who wants those, and there will be simpler more accessible games for those who wants them.

all imho
/M

 

[Faeldawn]

Sorry about the long rant. In conclusion: Dumbing down a game is indeed somewhat annoying to me, I like a challenge for my brain as well as for my triggerfinger. But in the bigger picture I really appreciate the dumbing down of games, because it means a bigger market for the game, so better development for me to enjoy. Because even WoW is way more fun than the MUDs.

Hopefully, in the future, the mmo-market will be so big that companies will dare to start doing more niche-games. So that there can be hard challenges for us who wants those, and there will be simpler more accessible games for those who wants them.

all imho
/M

Completely agree and unfortunately it is looking like this might come to be a reality for the forseeable future.