The difference between Quality and Bonus and the importance of both.

[Graknak]

First of all i would like to say that any corrections would be welcome as i'm not 100% sure, but just telling this out of my own experience. Also any backup with calculations owuld be appreciated.

Recently i noticed that ppl don't care about Bon and Qua on drops during a trade.
Someone is selling a nice item and when i ask either Bon or Qua they say: " Why? does it matter?"
After a couple of weeks (now ) i decided to make a thread about it, just to see if i'm right or wrong about this.
Here goes.

Qua and its purpose:
Qua is the rate at which the Condition of an item goes down.
The more Qua the lower its condition goes down by per hit

Bonus and its purpose:
Bonus is the rate at which the Durability goes down when repairing. The higher the Bonus, the less Dur an item will loose during a repair. however it still depends on how much Condition needs to be repaired.

Note that during the writing of this i got doubts if it shouldn't be switched (thus Qua is how much Dur per Condition per repair is lost or that Bonus is the rate at which the Condition goes down).

Plz don't flame if i'm wrong, just correct it or tell out of your own experience. This thread is supposed to be helping everyone (thats why it's posted in the genreal section)

Greetings to all,
Cuthbert MacGregor

 

[Ardrias_Mid]

Quality: Damage variance, number of times you can repair an item before it starts losing durability.

Bonus: Additional bonus on your to-hit rolls.

 

[stafford]

quality represents an items capacity to deal damage protect you from blows etc

a piece of af 102 armour at say merchant quality 85% its max af despite its condtion will be 85% of 102

this factor is then further changed by condition of item
and items over 95% quality range from 105-120% durability
like you cuth this is my own theory so let me know if im wrong


and as for bonus i have no fucking clue


edit: typos

 

[Roalith]

Quality: Proportional to the DPS/AF of the item.
16.5 DPS weapon at 85% quality will only have an affective DPS of 14.
102 AF armour at 85% quality will only have an affective AF of 87, although this is modified proportional to which slot the item goes in - there is a 'weighting factor' that affects the items' AF depending on it's size.
Quality also affects the rate at which item loses condition, and also affects the durability lost when the item is repaired. Higher the quality, the less lost.

Bonus: Proportional to the level of the item.
Maximum bonus is 35%, and as mentioned affects your 'to-hit' rolls. For example, attacking someone wearing 35% armour, with a 25% bonus weapon means you suffer a 10% penalty in your to-hit roll.
Some also believe bonus affects your damage dealt with the weapon, although I've yet to see logs confirm this.

 

[old.Cher]

Bang on Roalith, and its these facts, along with spell crafting that tends to make crafted armour and weapons superior to common drops,

 

[SoulFly Amarok]

to add to stuff allready mentioned:

Shield:

Shield condition affects your chance to block.
Shield quality doesn't affect your chance to block.
Shield Bonus affects your chance to block.

Weapon:

Lets say I hit you with my 100%qual sword, and hit your torso, which's qual of 90%, I get 10% additional damage.

:hat:

 

[SoulFly Amarok]

Originally posted by Roalith


Some also believe bonus affects your damage dealt with the weapon, although I've yet to see logs confirm this.

Nope. It's just a rumour. Nothing else

 

[Edlina]

It's qute simple, Bonus is a to-hit/miss modifier, meaning if you hit with a 25% bonus sword on a 35% bonus armor you get -10% chance to hit. Bonus as such do not effect jewelry as far as I know. (with shield, 25% bonus sword and 35% bonus shield you get 10% chance added to your chance of blocking, ie. say you have 25% chance of blocking under those conditions you would have 25% + 25%/10 (100 divided by the bonus chance to block, in this case 100/10 = 10) chance ie. 27.5% chance to block.

Quality is a measure of the effectiveness of an item, as such swords and armor, it's really quite simple, and explained well if you "dwell" an item, ie shift + i click on it. effects your dmg output with swords and your effective AF with armor, doesn't effect shield or jewel afaik.


edited for better understanding about shield

 

[Solid]

Condition works in much the same way as Quality when determining effective DPS or AF, ie lower the Condition of your item lower the effective DPS and AF of said item, just like Quality.

 

[Roalith]

Originally posted by Edlina
"dwell"

Delve.

 

[Wend]

PLAYER CRAFTED WEAPONS
Before we integrate the above concepts into an optimal set of equipment for the most common situations, we will consider the option of high level player-crafted weapons. Choosing player crafted weapons instead of rare drop or quest weapons affects our stats and therefore affects the best choice for the rest of our gear. Based on my arguments presented in the Technical Guide to Weapons, I will consider 2H weapons for the following analysis, although I suspect the conclusions will also apply for 1H weapons. Around level 45 a quest weapon for most players provides a very good weapon. In the case of 2H hammers, that quest weapon is the Hammer of Black Ice (15.0 dps, 100% qual, +4 hammer, +6 str, +15 hits, 88 DD proc). The two "best" rare drop 2H hammers known in the game are the Great Ice Breaker (drops from the Wretch of Winter, 16.2 dps, 93% qual, +6 hammer, +6 str, 6% cold resist, procs damage shield), and the Brilliant Baln's Mephitic Bludgeoner (drops from the Darkness Falls Prince, +10 str, +9 qui, +3 hammer, +3 parry, procs +56 dex/qui buff). The two best player crafted 2H hammers are the arcanium great hammer (16.2 dps, level 50) and the arcanium great spiked hammer (16.5 dps, level 51). How do these five 2H hammers stack up?

Since I only own the Black Ice hammer, Mugin and Gunnarr generously provided the other four weapons to test (thanks guys!). The arcanium weapons tested were both 97% quality. I tested all five weapons in a very rigorous way. First, to allow the rare drop weapons' stat bonuses to have their full effect, I was careful to leave my str enhancement from items at +65 (10 str below the cap) and my hammer skill enhancement well below the cap. Second, I compared the weapons two at a time on monsters of not only the same type and same, but actually on the SAME MONSTER. I picked a blue con monster, took its health down to 50% with weapon A, then switched to weapon B and finished it off. I recorded the damage of every swing for a very large sample size (typically at least 60 hits for each weapon) and compared the average damage per swing and damage per second for each weapon against each mob. Here are the averaged and normalized results:

Hammer of Black Ice average damage per swing: 266.6
Hammer of Black Ice dps ignoring proc: 50.3
Hammer of Black Ice dps including proc: 52.1
Brilliant Baln's Mephitic Blud average damage per swing: 239.6
Brilliant Baln's Mephitic Blud dps: 47.9
Great Ice Breaker average damage per swing: 262.5
Great Ice Breaker dps: 52.5
Archanium Great Spiked Hammer damage per swing: 239.0
Archanium Great Spiked Hammer dps: 46.0
Archanium Great Hammer damage per swing: 258.3
Archanium Great Hammer dps: 48.73

This was surprising on many levels. First, the Hammer of Black Ice, something most people get at level 44, was superior to, or within statistical noise of, EVERY OTHER HAMMER IN THE GAME. Even if we artificially bump up the quality of the crafted hammers to 100% and add 3% dps to the two crafted hammers, we still don't best the Hammer of Black Ice. In fact both player crafted weapons as tested were near the bottom of the heap in damage per second.

Second, the Archanium Great Hammer did significantly better in these tests than the Archanium Great Spiked Hammer. The difference, about 5.6%, is way beyond the standard deviation of the data and therefore is not simply statistical noise. Although the Great Spiked Hammer is level 51 and therefore one level higher than me, the lore has always been that weapons slightly higher than you simply cap your weapon damage (at 16.2 dps aka "1602" for level 50) but do not penalize you significantly. This is clearly wrong; although both weapons capped my weapon damage at 1602, the level 50 weapon hit 5.6% harder per second than the level 51 weapon.

I did not factor hit/miss ratio into the above tests because I did not bother to enchant the crafted weapons. After all, Mythic has stated clearly that the bonus of a weapon affects only the hit/miss ratio, not the damage per hit of the weapon. Recall the 11-30-01 Herald article which discusses weapon bonus:

"Bonus - This takes into account any bonuses on the armor of the person you're hitting. I'll use the simplest possible example. Let's say your opponent is wearing a shirt with a 10% bonus. You have a sword with a 15% bonus. What you then have is a 5% addition to your "to hit" (which is simply your chance to hit the opponent). It doesn't affect how MUCH you hit for, it increases your chances of landing a hit on him at all."

I decided to enchant the Archanium Great Hammer and the Archanium Great Spiked Hammer to 35% bonus and redo the tests. The results were hard to believe, so I redid the tests again. And again. And I always got the same result. After more than 250 swings comparing the Hammer of Black Ice to the enchanted and unenchanted Archanium hammers, here are the very surprising results:

Hammer of Black Ice, 25% bonus, average damage per swing: 266.6
Hammer of Black Ice, 25% bonus, dps including proc: 52.1
Archanium Great Hammer, 0% bonus, damage per swing: 258.3
Archanium Great Hammer, 0% bonus, dps: 48.73
Shimmering Arch. Great Hammer, 35% bonus, damage per swing: 290.7
Shimmering Arch. Great Hammer, 35% bonus, dps: 54.9
Archanium Great Spiked Hammer damage per swing: 239.0
Archanium Great Spiked Hammer dps: 46.0
Shimmering Arch. Great Spiked Hammer, 35% bonus, damage per swing: 278.2
Shimmering Arch. Great Spiked Hammer, 35% bonus, dps: 53.5

The most surprising finding is that 35% BONUS INCREASES THE DAMAGE PER HIT of the crafted weapons by a huge amount (12.7% and 16.3%)! This contradicts the information in the Herald but is a simple fact (and thank god for crafters that the Herald is wrong or there would not be much reason to buy your high end weapons). Enchanting also, as expected, decreases misses by a large margin (not easily quantified because the sample size of misses is small). Since miss/hit factors directly into dps, we can correct the effective dps of each of the above hammers AGAINST EVEN CON OPPONENTS by the difference between their bonus and the Hammer of Black Ice's bonus of 25%. This gives the shimmering archanium weapons a 10% boost and the Great Ice Breaker a 5% boost against even con opponents. So now the best 2H hammers in Midgard are the following, listed by normalized RELATIVE dps:

Against lower opponents (assuming miss rate is zero):
Shimmering Arch. Great Hammer: 54.9
Shimmering Arch. Great Spiked Hammer: 53.5 (2.5% worse)
Great Ice Breaker: 52.5 (4.4% worse)
Hammer of Black Ice: 52.1 (5.1% worse)
Brilliant Baln's Mephitic Bludgeoner: 47.9 (13% worse)

Against even con opponents (reflecting the bonus to hit differences):
Shimmering Archanium Great Hammer: 60.4
Shimmering Archanium Great Spiked Hammer: 58.9 (2.5% worse)
Great Ice Breaker: 55.1 (9% worse)
unenchanted Archanium Great Hammer: 53.6 (11% worse)
Hammer of Black Ice: 52.1 (14% worse)
Brilliant Baln's Mephitic Bludgeoner: 47.9 (21% worse)

The very large margin of difference between the player crafted, ENCHANTED archanium weapons and the next best rare drop weapon makes me believe that in all realms, across all weapon types, it will be very hard to beat the player crafted, high quality archanium weapons, AFTER they are enchanted. Casters rejoice; your hard work has paid off; I hope you don't mind the deluge of tells that are incoming...

Very old though.

http://www.yeggs.net/underfoot/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=general_rvr;action=display;num=1019337366

 

[Danya]

Con loss and durability loss are fixed and not dependent on item quality or bonus apparently.

 

[Nightchill]

Originally posted by SoulFly Amarok



Nope. It's just a rumour. Nothing else

it's been shown at yeggs.net:

http://www.yeggs.net/underfoot/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=general_rvr;action=display;num=1019337366

 

[Wend]

I already posted that!

Now you're just farming.

 

[Nightchill]

Originally posted by Wend
I already posted that!

Now you're just farming.

oops

i'll start reading whole threads now then

 

[Edlina]

Originally posted by Roalith


Delve.

Thanks, couldn't remember the word

 

[Wend]

Originally posted by Nightchill


oops

i'll start reading whole threads now then

Oww.

 

[Sagba]

Originally posted by SoulFly Amarok

Shield:

Shield condition affects your chance to block.
Shield quality doesn't affect your chance to block.
Shield Bonus affects your chance to block.

You sure? I seems to block a lot more with 100qua shield than with 97qua shield even if my 100qua shield's condition is 97%(100% condition in 97qua shield). Also thought bonus is just for hitting, not for blocking