The Beatings In Iraq (Headline In Todays News Of The World)

[old.Tohtori]

Well the "who deserves what" question doesn't quite cover the intire aspect of what happened. This picture can not be painted in black and white

Actually meant the question about what if the tables were turned.

Like, iraqi army beating UK children.

 

[Amanita]

Actually meant the question about what if the tables were turned.

Like, iraqi army beating UK children.

I'd like to think my reaction would be similar, but I wouldn't find out for sure unless it actually happened
But ofc if the tables really were turned then the iraqis would be occupying Britain and I'd be one of the angry locals anyway ^^

Fact is, I am not out there so I can afford to be taking any stance I want. I am almost certain that if you were one of those soldiers out there you wouldn't be quite so humanitarian either Tohtori.

 

[Bugz]

I couldn't care less tbh.

Soldiers don't beat people up for no reason.

They obviously deserved to be beaten up.

Next issue.

edit - they look liked teenagers to me.

 

[old.Tohtori]

if you were one of those soldiers out there you wouldn't be quite so humanitarian either Tohtori.

Quite right.

I might not be the way i would think out there, but that doesn't make it right.

About "Soldiers don't beat up people for no reason", is a quote that is straight out of the naive boook.

 

[Aoln]

Actually meant the question about what if the tables were turned.

Like, iraqi army beating UK children.

Depends if they're chavs or not

 

[Bugz]

Quite right.

I might not be the way i would think out there, but that doesn't make it right.

About "Soldiers don't beat up people for no reason", is a quote that is straight out of the naive boook.

Soldiers face alot of issues for randomly beating people up:-

- detection through media
- soldiers 'grassing' on them
- revolts by family/iraqis
- chance of being killed

the list goes on...

It is silly and naive to think that a soldier walks into a town and randomly beats up a couple of teenagers - especially after a riot involving destructive objects.

Some may do it - those need to be taken care off.

 

[Doom]

humans are humans, no matter what color, origin etc - same shit. same evil coming from greed/pride/believes/lack of empathy.

 

[DocWolfe]

The thing is Seel, if I had been ruled over by a tyranical dictator for the last 40 or so years I would be glad if they came and helped get rid of him.

 

[Ingafgrinn Macabre]

The thing is Seel, if I had been ruled over by a tyranical dictator for the last 40 or so years I would be glad if they came and helped get rid of him.

Would you? because under that tiran you atleast have structure and knew which people you could and could not trust and what to expect of them.

There is no structure now. There is no way you know who to trust, who does what and how people react on anything. there's only uncertainty now.

 

[DocWolfe]

Would you? because under that tiran you atleast have structure and knew which people you could and could not trust and what to expect of them.

There is no structure now. There is no way you know who to trust, who does what and how people react on anything. there's only uncertainty now.

Uncertainty for the moment... but not in the long run. During Stalins rein in Russia people often grassed up members of their own family, to help ensure that their own loyalty was not come into question, is that not uncertainty as to who you could trust? Under tyranny nothing is certain.

 

[cHodAX]

A job well done, they were trying to hurt others and got hurt themselves, thats called old fashioned justice. We could use some of that on the streets of Britain to sort all these chavs and rogues out.

 

[Outlander]

just nuke everyone then all the probs will be sorted

 

[liloe]

you only get shown what the media/goverments want you to see and the majority of you take the bait every time.

This is actually the sad truth. Sometimes it's not the situation that matters, it's the point of view that does the trick. Don't get me wrong, I don't encourage beating kids like that, but this is just a small slice of a huge bread none of us can hold.

The basic problem here is the attitude of the people in these countries. If we're salt, they're sugar and if we're black, they're white. If we say we help them with bringing democracy, they have their own ideas about it. The question is not simple at all, but can be broken down into different things.

First of all there is the religious aspect. Now there are ofc the two factions with faction 1 spreading the old "oh look what religion does" and faction 2 with the idea of "western countries and religion? We don't have to do anything with it". Both are wrong cause it goes pretty deep. Wether it might be correct or not, some people fear that when we come and stay there, we will bring too much of our culture with us and they're afraid of it, like we are. Yes, a lot of people would never admit that they would be afraid by another culture, but we can see that at decisions our countries make. So it is the same with these people and now look how the US came into the country. They invaded the country within a few days with a major force and while they were at it they spread tons of rumors and false information in our media. So what do you think did the Saddam regime do? Tell the truth? Surely not. The minds of these people are still filled with the propaganda they saw and so it's no surprise that they're partially afraid of what's coming. What they saw till now, was that their people had no more rights in their own country. The government was sure voted, but with so close looking of other people, I can tell you that if I lived there, I wouldn't have been happy either.
So what we have now is a perfect soil for spreading ideas of rebellion and believe me, rebel forces have always been great peasants on this ground. They give people the idea that the old stuff wasn't that bad after all and show ALL the negative things possible. Don't imagine you sit behind your computer in a nice room. Imagine you're over there, your streets are full of soldiers, lots of fightings and now you hear what's going on in US prisons. So what do you do. Thank these people for coming over?
Now wether it will work or not, but people generally see only what's in front of their eyes, not what will be in a year, or five, or even ten.

Secondly the Iraq is a nation spread between different factions. There are the Sunnites and the Shiites (spelling?) who have two very different views about religion. Having those two parties in one country means major hassle, cause both have a different opinion of who should be the leader of the state. I'll try it in a few words. The Shiites believe that only a descendant of Mohammed can be the highest leader (so called Imam), whereas the Sunnites believe that the best suited person should be voted (a Kalif). Now these two groups (the two larger groups of the three in the islamic world) are clashing in the Iraq and most obviously this leads to stress. In Saddams time, he held them calm by force (I don't imply this was a good solution), but now both are set free and of cause we try to please them both, which means in return that the extremist sides of both parties will react with anger at us.

And then there is also another thing, which makes things very complicated for us. Let's say someone slaps you. Now what culture do you live in? Some say that the wise man takes it and doesn't react. Some say an eye for an eye and you slap back etc. I hope you get my point. Western states are trying to keep up a moral standard so sometimes we're making decisions that look ridiculous at first glimpse, but they make sense if you look closer. We say that it's not ok to kill people, it's not ok to make war, it's not ok to torture and that every human being has a value. I believe that it is a very good decision to maintain these values, but on the other hand they're our weakest point. We will not strike back with brutal force most of the time, we will investigate, we will think and talk about what we do. But what if we don't? What if we strike and what if we use brutal force? Of cause it will be used against us and all of sudden the fingers are pointed at us, wether we're right or not. Now comes the sad part. Being right is no question of being in the right position, it is too often a question of who has the least fingers pointed at him and all of sudden it's "ohhh look at the poor victims, such aggressions against them" and it's of really no interest who started the whole thing. I don't say it's like that all the time, but too often it is.


So what is my opinion on the whole thing. Stay away from trouble. If the people there don't want us to meddle in their affairs, why not go home? A lot of democracys have been imposed to countries and when thinking about it, I don't find a lot of countries where it has been successful. The people in the western countries have fought hard for their rights and therefore they knew what they had given to make it work. It wasn't clean or good, but we came to a society that was mostly what it wanted to be itself. Now I ask: If the people over there wanted a change, wouldn't they have done it themselves after some time? The cultural developpement there was totally different from what occured in our past so I think it's not good if we come and try to "make things better".

Now you might say: "Don't you feel sorry for all the people there?" and I will tell you what I quoted and I even add to it. There is so much bad stuff around us, I don't need to look a thousand miles away but it makes us shine so much more if we can claim that we help people all over the world. I can only repear myself, but being shiny > being real in this world if you're representing a country.

 

[Blizard]

Im tired cause im on a 12 hr night shift so ill keep it short!!!!!

Keep the friggin media out of it and let the troops do there job!

How can a soldier do his job and be safe when he has to seize fire because the media have camera's on him/her??

There is a soldier aiming at me!!!! can i fire?? or will i get arrested because the media will edit it to make me look like a gun ho mother....?

Its to political now...

 

[Jeriraa]

I couldn't care less tbh.

Soldiers don't beat people up for no reason.

They obviously deserved to be beaten up.

Next issue.

How naive can you be? In case you get mocked in the streets I hope you'll think the same way.

"Soldiers don't beat people up for no reason." - Yeah, and psychopaths don't kill people for no reason.

Stop thinking binary.

Also, whatever reason there was: there are rules of engagment in war. If they were civilians this treatment was unapropriate no matter what. If they were combatants (actively engaging the soldiers) this treatment was unapropriate aswell. They were unarmed and should have been considered PoW's. (Go read the rights of PoW's.)

 

[old.Tohtori]

Also, whatever reason there was: there are rules of engagment in war. If they were civilians this treatment was unapropriate no matter what. If they were combatants (actively engaging the soldiers) this treatment was unapropriate aswell. They were unarmed and should have been considered PoW's. (Go read the rights of PoW's.)

Hey hey hey! Those bastards were terrorists!They don't have rights! Right?

*tries desperetly to jump on the anti terrorist wagon*

Ah f*ck it.

 

[Tilda]

How naive can you be? In case you get mocked in the streets I hope you'll think the same way.

"Soldiers don't beat people up for no reason." - Yeah, and psychopaths don't kill people for no reason.

Stop thinking binary.

Also, whatever reason there was: there are rules of engagment in war. If they were civilians this treatment was unapropriate no matter what. If they were combatants (actively engaging the soldiers) this treatment was unapropriate aswell. They were unarmed and should have been considered PoW's. (Go read the rights of PoW's.)

They were throwing rocks at the soliders, thats hardly unarmed.
For those of you saying they're only kids. If they're old enough to play in big-boy riots and throw rocks, they're old enough to deal with the consequences imo.

 

[Jeriraa]

They were throwing rocks at the soliders, thats hardly unarmed.
For those of you saying they're only kids. If they're old enough to play in big-boy riots and throw rocks, they're old enough to deal with the consequences imo.

They were throwing rocks, ok. So theoreticaly they were combatants. But, I didnt see any rocks when they got beaten. Combants are to be disarmed by any means necessary and then taken under arrest as prisoners of war. Prisoners of war have to be treated following the human rights.

No matter how you twist it. These soldiers committed a crime! A warcrime even.

They might have had their reasons but that doesnt make it right.

 

[Righthandof]

They were throwing rocks at the soliders, thats hardly unarmed.
For those of you saying they're only kids. If they're old enough to play in big-boy riots and throw rocks, they're old enough to deal with the consequences imo.

there's a thing called "law". thats responsible for dealing with the bad guys - if they throw rocks, policemen arrest them, gets them to court and im sure they wont be happy when they recieve the decision with 3 months in jail or something... theres a word in hungarian for what these soldiers have done, its something like "self-judging", which is highly culpable, simply because they aren't trained enough to make such decision, who deserves what. judges are.

 

[DocWolfe]

The video was recorded 2 years ago when there was no legal system and the country was still at war. The city was in effect under marshal law...

 

[Jeriraa]

Isnt it martial law you mean?

Anyways, if the clip is years old and there was no Iraqi govermental law enforcment system or law present then it was these soldiers job to enforce law. I doubt thou they were meant to continue Husseins terror regiment.

As a soldier of a so called civilized country you have to follow certain laws. These soldiers violated them. I expect them to be punished. I'd expect them to be punished too if they were German soldiers.

Its nice of you to support your country and all but these little shitheads are criminals. Not better than the ock throwing kids.

 

[Thorwyn]

I`ll follow Tohtoris example and refrain from giving any detailed comments on this matter. However, I can´t help but say, that some replies in this thread are so unbelievably naive and cynical that it´s almost crossing the border to disgust. But I guess that´s the "Zeitgeist".

 

[Jeriraa]

I`ll follow Tohtoris example and refrain from giving any detailed comments on this matter. However, I can´t help but say, that some replies in this thread are so unbelievably naive and cynical that it´s almost crossing the border to disgust. But I guess that´s the "Zeitgeist".

Yeah, that "If we do it its right, if they do it its wrong cause we are the good guys." attitude is spreading quite alot lately...
70 years ago it spread in one country and that resultde in the death of 60 million people. Now its spreading all over the world.

 

[spook]

The only winners of this situation is the media, although I wonder why it took so long for the clip to go public. Could be several reasons for that. Media shows us what gives them the most publicity.

Only time it's legal to single people out to beat them is if they're identified as leaders or a critical danger to the soldier, and only then it's done if they need to be pacified.

What seems to be failing in that situation, among other things, is the judgement of the leading person of the situation. Naturally, you can't hide behind: "I followed orders" as was proved some 50 years ago, and there might have been many small things around the whole thing that we have no idea about.


What was said in prior post about the line between civilians and combatants in Iraq is true. I doubt there was ever a time if I actually felt safe when out patrolling. If you're in the towns you can be assaulted with stones/weapons which you will be. If you're out in the open areas you can get hit by a roadside bomb. Hell, even the Police is in question there, we always had a person checking them often when they were near. We often discussed how involved the police were in the attacks against coalition forces.

All this adds to the constant pressure you feel the first week, if you're succesful you can put it in the back of your head so it only pops out at certain times, other people might not be that lucky and then I can only imagine how horrendous a full tour down there can be.

None the less, soldiers are not allowed to run after a demonstration which is fleeing the scene, grab some persons, drag them back into a walled yard and hit them. It'd be interesting if the press were able to talk to one of the soldiers in question, who could then tell the full story preferably adding in the current situation of the province, incidents in the past week and current threat assesment.

You should know that one of the worst feelings I had downthere, was when the Danes were polled for how many supported soldiers being down there, and most comments showed by the press were negative. Support is everything for a soldier, be it from the man next to him or the country which made it possible for him to go. You may be a volunteer, but that doesn't mean you're stripped from feelings.

btw. a fact that was given last night in tv (yeah, I know) was that 80.000 british soldiers have been through Iraq during the campaign, and so far 5 of them have been found guilty of breaking the law. This whole thing isn't something that's going on all the time. Probably more often than we know of, but don't judge the whole on behalf of a few rotten apples.

 

[Jeriraa]

This whole thing isn't something that's going on all the time. Probably more often than we know of, but don't judge the whole on behalf of a few rotten apples.

Not meaning to do that.

 

[Chap]

Soldiers can not and should not up hold the law. They simply arent educated to do that. What we saw was disgusting and inhuman. Acts such as these were the "reason" America invaded Iraq in the first place.
Dont understand how you can justify that, but I guess british soldiers havent the most glorious past. Lets have a look shall we:

The writer Mark Curtis says that in 1971 an official British investigation found that the British army's torture techniques "played an important part in counter-insurgency operations in Palestine, Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus and the British Cameroons (1960-1), Brunei (1963), British Guiana (1964), Aden (1964-7), Borneo/Malaysia (1965-6), the Persian Gulf (1970-1) and in Northern Ireland (1971)".

 

[[SS]Gamblor]

I was thinking about this on the way in on the bus this morning.....

I was reminded of Some Kids from Northern ireland about 15 - 18 years ago.

Sure they where throwing stones at the RUC and the big feck off Land rovers they had, so 3 Soliders get out the rubber bullets fire and kill 3 , brain damamge 2 and simply hurt another 2.


In both instances the soliders went way OTT , and in both soliders where sent to places becasue it's thier job. On the other side of the fence, both sets of kids where going OTT in displaying thier anger at the Imposed "Protection" of a forigen goverment.

All in all ( it was said earlier in the thread) the only winners here are the Media.

Any1 who says blindly that the soliders where provoked needs thier heads looked at , but the same can be said of the other side of the coin.

This is what a trial is for ( something both sets of kids should of got , but didn't), it will sort out all this crap

 

[Herjulf]

Well.

Not really going to say what i WANT to say, but whodeserves to be beaten by three armed soldiers in a backyard?

while lying down, pacified by 2 others holding em down, kicked in the nuts from behind while laying down with reinforced army boots.

ofc.. the brave soldiers did a bangup job, making their country better right there.
Was it some sort of Child Control program we didnt hear about?

 

[spook]

Not meaning to do that.

Sorry, wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just wanted to point it out so no one would get that idea

 

[Kinag]

What those british soldiers do is not right.

I'm angry of what has happened lately as well, but that's just so fucking un-necessary.

You don't beat kids like that, and saying it's the right thing to do without knowing what they did is wrong as well.

And that fucking cameraman is a fucking lunatic!