Football The 2011/2012 Season Thread

[Cerb]

they are flawed because... get this right... see if you can follow....


the ranking is purely on overall points......


if paisley had done lets say 36 years for ease compared to fergies 38 then he would have 6660 points compared to fergies 2780, that's over double and in 2 years less.........

your argument is like saying Heskey (151 goals in 17 years) is a better player than Cantona (73 goals in 5 years in prem) over 3 times the time palying in prem for only double the goals........ but time doesn't matter right? its results that count? so Heskey > Cantona yea?

Gohan your argument is completely based on the speculation that Paisley would have continued that form over the course of his career. I think the reason many consider Fergie the best is that they realize that keeping success going over a sustained period is more difficult.

 

[gohan]

no I completely get that, and I'd probably agree Fergie is the best ever. But based on those stats it doesn't give a strong arguement, if this was court and you presented those stats as evidence you'd get torn to pieces

 

[cHodAX]

they are flawed because... get this right... see if you can follow....


the ranking is purely on overall points......


if paisley had done lets say 36 years for ease compared to fergies 38 then he would have 6660 points compared to fergies 2780, that's over double and in 2 years less.........

your argument is like saying Heskey (151 goals in 17 years) is a better player than Cantona (73 goals in 5 years in prem) over 3 times the time palying in prem for only double the goals........ but time doesn't matter right? its results that count? so Heskey > Cantona yea?

Again, you make the assumption that Paisley would have continued to win for another 16 years, your arguement only holds if that happens which it didn't. All ranks always end in an overall points system, deal with it.

 

[gohan]

Again, you make the assumption that Paisley would have continued to win for another 16 years, your arguement only holds if that happens which it didn't. All ranks always end in an overall points system, deal with it.

so heskey is better than cantona? fair dos

 

[cHodAX]

no I completely get that, and I'd probably agree Fergie is the best ever. But based on those stats it doesn't give a strong arguement, if this was court and you presented those stats as evidence you'd get torn to pieces

Again, a matter of perspective and personal opinion. A neutral fan is probably going to see it a bit differently because they don't have an emotional attachment to the whole Paisley issue, they look at the pure numbers but also the incredible longevity.

 

[soze]

The Hesky argument is a great one and if overall numbers are all that matters then he is the better player and that makes me smile see

 

[Cadelin]

Again, I've taken no stance on this, quote me acctaully giving an opinion on this please

Yes you have:

if paisley had done lets say 36 years for ease compared to fergies 38 then he would have 6660 points compared to fergies 2780, that's over double and in 2 years less.........

This is an opinion. Unless you have access to an alternative dimension where Paisley has managed for 36 years then it is not a fact!

Your decision to base the 'best manager' on average points per year is an opinion.

 

[Scouse]

Another little stat, in the 24 years of Shankley/Paisley you won 9 league titles, in 25 years Fergie won 12. If we are playing the numbers game then you have to take that one into account as well.

Oh, I'm sorry cHodAX. I didn't realise we were playing the "shit, the stats about managers don't support my argument so lets make some up by amalgamating two managers into one" game. I didn't know Bob Paisely was actually called BobShanksPaisley. What a load of utter fucking shite.

Go ahead. Hate Liverpool. Knock yourself out. I don't give a fuck. Paisley won 66.6% of the league titles he competed in and 3 European cups - and many other trophies - before his managerial career ended.

He was fucking awesome.


(As was Gerrard tonight - hat trick against Everton. Nice week for me to take him out of my fantasy squad!)

 

[gohan]

Again, a matter of perspective and personal opinion. A neutral fan is probably going to see it a bit differently because they don't have an emotional attachment to the whole Paisley issue, they look at the pure numbers but also the incredible longevity.

which isn't really reflected in those stats, are you honestly hand on heart saying that if Paisley got 1650 in 9 years he woulds get another 1200 points in 29 additional years to top fergie on that chart?

Purely on the stats Paisley has a massive advantage of just going straight in at liverpool. Fergie did 11 years of shit in Scotland which probly only got him about 200 of his 2800 points..... if that...

I don't disagree with your argument, just the weak evidence you're backing it up with

Fergies strenght is that he has built serveral teams and developed plenty of youth to dominate what is widely regarded as the best league in the world, that isn't reflected in the stats, the stats favour Paisley so don't use them in your argument just because fergie is ranked number 1 purely on time served.

 

[gohan]

Yes you have:



This is an opinion. Unless you have access to an alternative dimension where Paisley has managed for 36 years then it is not a fact!

Your decision to base the 'best manager' on average points per year is an opinion.

again quote where I've said I think Paisley is the better manager? All I've said is that the stats DO NOT show Fergie to be better, they just show he's been at it for longer

Also i said IF you take it points per year then paisley WOULD be better, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. Maybe you should learn to define the two before stickign your oar in xx

 

[cHodAX]

Again, I've taken no stance on this, quote me acctaully giving an opinion on this please

I'm just stating tho cho's stats aren't really backing up his argument

That is because you are wearing rose tinted specticles. How anyone can find fault with...

St. Mirren

• Scottish First Division (1): 1976–77

Aberdeen

• Scottish Premier Division (3): 1979–80, 1983–84, 1984–85
• Scottish Cup (4): 1981–82, 1982–83, 1983–84, 1985–86
• Scottish League Cup (1): 1985–86
• UEFA Cup Winners' Cup (1): 1982–83
• UEFA Super Cup (1): 1983

Manchester United[103]

• Premier League (12): 1992–93, 1993–94, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09, 2010–11
• FA Cup (5): 1989–90, 1993–94, 1995–96, 1998–99, 2003–04
• League Cup (4): 1991–92, 2005–06, 2008–09, 2009–10
• FA Charity/Community Shield (10): 1990 (shared), 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011
• UEFA Champions League (2): 1998–99, 2007–08
• UEFA Cup Winners' Cup (1): 1990–91
• UEFA Super Cup (1): 1991
• Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999
• FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

Individual

• LMA Manager of the Decade (1): 1990s
• LMA Manager of the Year (3): 1998–99, 2007–08, 2010–11
• LMA Special Merit Award (2): 2009, 2011
• Premier League Manager of the Season (10): 1993–94, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09, 2010–11
• Premier League Manager of the Month (26): August 1993, October 1994, February 1996, March 1996, February 1997, October 1997, January 1999, April 1999, August 1999, March 2000, April 2000, February 2001, April 2003, December 2003, February 2005, March 2006, August 2006, October 2006, February 2007, January 2008, March 2008, January 2009, April 2009, September 2009, January 2011, August 2011
• UEFA Manager of the Year (1): 1998–99
• UEFA Team of the Year (2): 2007, 2008
• Onze d'Or Coach of the Year (3): 1999, 2007, 2008
• IFFHS World's Best Club Coach of the Year (2): 1999, 2008
• IFFHS World's Best Coach of the 21st Century (1): 2012
• World Soccer Magazine World Manager of the Year (4): 1993, 1999, 2007, 2008
• Laureus World Sports Award for Team of the Year (1): 2000
• BBC Sports Personality of the Year Coach Award (1): 1999
• BBC Sports Personality Team of the Year Award (1): 1999
• BBC Sports Personality of the Year Lifetime Achievement Award (1): 2001
• English Football Hall of Fame (Manager) : 2002
• European Hall of Fame (Manager): 2008
• FIFA Presidential Award: 2011
• Premier League 10 Seasons Awards (1992–93 – 2001–02)
  • Manager of the Decade
  • Most Coaching Appearances (392 games)
• FWA Tribute Award : 1996
• PFA Merit Award: 2007
• Mussabini Medal : 1999

Orders and special awards

• Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE): 1983
• Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE): 1995
• Knight Bachelor (Kt.): 1999

...is beyond me!

 

[gohan]

you never posted that in your argument, so how can I have found fault with it?

The stats you did post in your arguement were weak and didn't back you up. how hard is that to understand? I feel like I posting the same thing over and over because no one is clever enought to understand it....... I've even said that imo Fergie is probably the best manager of all time..... I just don't see whats hard about finding stats that acctaully back you up, or whats hard about understanding when you've used stats that don't

 

[cHodAX]

you never posted that in your argument, so how can I have found fault with it?

The stats you did post in your arguement were weak and didn't back you up. how hard is that to understand? I feel like I posting the same thing over and over because no one is clever enought to understand it....... I've even said that imo Fergie is probably the best manager of all time..... I just don't see whats hard about finding stats that acctaully back you up, or whats hard about understanding when you've used stats that don't

You were just looking for something to argue over, you already know the stats and you weren't going to let that stop you having a trollolol moment.

 

[gohan]

If you read my first post it was completely objective, all I said is the stats you've posted don't really back you up, you're the one that translated that as trolololol paisley R B god. I've not once even stated that I think Paisley is better, the closest I've come is to say it's hard to judge as it was different era's and a different game (in terms of foriegn talent and the money etc)

 

[Raven]

Heskey is the best ever. He should be in the squad, as captain.

If only we could clone him.

 

[cHodAX]

Heskey is the best ever. He should be in the squad, as captain.

If only we could clone him.

What an England XI that would be!

 

[Cadelin]

again quote where I've said I think Paisley is the better manager? All I've said is that the stats DO NOT show Fergie to be better, they just show he's been at it for longer

Also i said IF you take it points per year then paisley WOULD be better, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. Maybe you should learn to define the two before stickign your oar in xx

Lets read what you actually said the first time:

Again, I've taken no stance on this, quote me acctaully giving an opinion on this please

I'm just stating tho cho's stats aren't really backing up his argument

Now there is a big difference between having an opinion on an issue and being of the opinion that Paisley is the better manager. So your first question is completely irrelevant.

With regards to your second point, these figures are not directly mathematically comparable. Therefore any statistical treatment of them will be an opinion. Stating that the stats don't show Fergie to be better is an opinion.

It is true that there are indeed some facts in what you say. For example your comment that they show he's been at it for longer is a fact because those numbers can be directly compared. However just because some of the things you say are fact doesn't mean all of it is. You have expressed numerous opinions on the issue.

 

[Keitanz]

Who cares who is better between Ferguson and Paisley. UTD are still the better team out of the two and over the last 10-20 have UTD have dominated Liverpool. For near enough the same money.

Note from a neutral.

neutral, do me a favour.

And tbh they haven't exactly dominated us recently, in league yeah, but head to head not so much from what I can remember anyway

The thing which has helped them a lot is stability.. put Benitez in charge of Chelsea for 20-25+ years and he won't do much worse than Ferguson tbh.

Changing manager every season fucks up a club, Chelsea are an example of that.

Most managers are treaten like shit, look what happend with McCarthy, did sacking him help Wolves in any way? no.. (incoming Everz hate..?)

Teams should have to pay a far larger fee to sack a manager, so they think twice about it.. it's a real piss take and needs to be sorted.

 

[cHodAX]

Fun time...

Do these numbers mean anything to you Keitanz?

19, 5, 19, 1, 21, 11, 4, 22, 22

That would be the points total between Manchester United and Liverpool for the last 10 seasons. Total difference? 123 points!

Another number for you...

6

That is the number of seasons out of the last 10 that Liverpool have finished outside of the top 5! Soon to become season 7!

One more number, 25.

The current points gap between United and Liverpool. Likely to be a bit bigger in 10 games time!

 

[Calaen]

put Benitez in charge of Chelsea for 20-25+ years and he won't do much worse than Ferguson tbh.

HAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAH

 

[Vladamir]

Oh lawd, is this real life?

 

[DaGaffer]

Comparing Paisley and Ferguson statistically is pointless; different eras, different influences on success. My personal view on why Fergie shades Paisley as the best manager hinges on two things;

1. Paisley took an already legendary team and made it better, Ferguson took a team that had been in the doldrums for two decades and made it the dominant force for the next two; I regard that as the more difficult achievement.
2. Ferguson's record in Scotland. Consistently breaking the dominance of the Old Firm is a hell of an achievement in anyone's book; then taking Aberdeen into success in Europe; I don't really think there's another manager in the world who could have done that.

 

[CorNokZ]

Empty post

edit. @Aoami btw

 

[cHodAX]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17360832

There are probably 5 managers who would disagree and maybe Capello too if he actually had any balls.

 

[Aoami]

Chodax, have i accidently had you on ignore or something, or did you just disappear for ages and seamlessly slide back in to the football thread?

 

[cHodAX]

Chodax, have i accidently had you on ignore or something, or did you just disappear for ages and seamlessly slide back in to the football thread?

I slide in and out with ease, as and when the need takes me. Had a pretty horrific bout of flu and a chest infection during the last week, seemed like a good time to come back and cheer myself up at Keitanz expense. Stopped posting last summer, was pretty fed up of the place and decided it wasn't doing me any good to spend a couple of hours a day reading here, usually ending up annoyed with people. So, no drama queen exits, just vanish and come back when the mood takes me.

Not sure I continue to be around on a regular basis, don't really do forums anymore and when I go back to work I won't get much time. Still, it has been nice to come back to this thread and see that nothing has changed!

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Not sure I continue to be around on a regular basis, don't really do forums anymore and when I go back to work I won't get much time. Still, it has been nice to come back to this thread and see that nothing has changed!

Manc Scum

 

[Gray]

http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/everton-shirts-down-10-from-42-1168242

To celebrate Moyes' 10 years in charge, £10 for the Everton shirts.

Not best time to post it but still an awesome deal.

 

[Vladamir]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/20876/7593295/Mazzarri-ban-temporarily-lifted

Is this not a bit strange?

 

[Raven]

Yes it is. Didn't another manager try and do that a couple of years ago and got told to bugger off?