Turamber
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He is indeed. Does that mean United are skint?
Football The 2011/2012 Season Thread
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He is indeed. Does that mean United are skint?
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Second best.
Bob Paisely was better (although his inconvenient death cut his astonishing run short).
Either way. Cash is still king.
cHodAX
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Nope, we leverage our income off the back of a very large and loyal fanbase. That makes us a viable business, we have never spent more than we earn going all the way back to before we became a PLC. What we have, we made, it wasn't given to us.
cHodAX
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See, when an Arsenal fans says it, then that means something because it is a nuetral perspective. When a Liverpool fan contradicts that and inserts one of thier own legendary managers then it just come across as rose tinted specticles, you will not be taken seriously.
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cHodAX
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And that is your reply is it? Totally overlooking the neutral opinion and trotting out the same old tired figures but overlooking the *inconvienent* ones such it now takes 17 games to win a Champions League, only 7 games in the era where Liverpool won 4 European Cups. Just 7 games against what often turned out to be extremely weak competition from champions playing in countries behind the iron curtain with zero access to the best foreign talent.
Fergie is the only manager in the history of world football to have won 16 league titles afaik, that at a rate of almost 1 league title for every two years managing a top flight club. A manager with 2 Champions Leagues, 2 European Cup Winners Cups, 5 FA Cups and 4 League cups plus a multitude of lesser trophies and accolades. A manager who has built league title winning sides not through just one football generation but FOUR! A man who has won league titles with sides that were consistently written off as being 'too young' or 'not good enough' yet went May comes around he is stood there with yet another league title.
One final point, Fergie is regarded widely around the world as the most decorated manager is the history of football but much more importantly he is regarded as the best because he has done it so many times and over such a prolonged period and against such stiff opposition.
You won't agree but many neutrals will and thier opinions are the ones that matters most because they can look at the the subject dispassionately.
cHodAX
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Stolen from Football Pantheon...
http://footballpantheon.com/2011/07/the-50-greatest-managers-of-all-time/6/
1. Alex Ferguson
Points 2780
Nationality Scottish
To properly put a list of achievements as lengthy as Alex Ferguson’s into context, it’s possibly best to illustrate the other careers that his own encompasses.
First of all, he did a Brian Clough by breaking the Old Firm’s dominance of Scotland with Aberdeen and even winning a Cup Winners Cup with them. The Real Madrid side he beat in the final had reached the same stage of the European Cup just two years before.
Secondly, he emulated Matt Busby and Bill Shankly by transforming Manchester United from a faded giant to a modern super-club. For those that cavil at the resources Ferguson has enjoyed in contrast to those past masters, it’s worth reflecting that he helped create them.
Finally, he has long surpassed the likes of Bob Paisley, Giovanni Trapattoni and Miguel Munoz as a thoroughly relentless trophy winner.
Indeed, there’s an interesting parallel between Ferguson’s time at United and that of Liverpool’s two giants.
Collectively, Shankly and Paisley were at Liverpool for 24 years. In that time, they won three European Cups, nine domestic titles, two Uefa Cups, two FA Cups and three league cups.
By comparison, Ferguson has been at Old Trafford for 25 years. In that time, he’s won two Champions Leagues, 12 domestic titles, a Cup Winners Cup, five FA Cups and four league cups. If anything, it illustrates the astonishing breadth of Ferguson’s career.
Paisley, of course, has that extra European Cup that Ferguson doesn’t. And it’s that continental record that has always been the one major caveat to his CV. But, when pointed out, it’s also usually a caveat devoid of proper context.
After all, Ferguson has still won as many European trophies in total as any other manager. What’s more, the exact length of his career has thrown up an unprecedented number of challenges. Having finally overcome the hangover from the Heysel ban, Ferguson then created his greatest teams during the most competitive period of the Champions League’s history. As barely needs repeating, no club has retained the trophy since Ferguson first entered the competition. They days of racking up rallies are long gone.
And yet, still, Ferguson might have forged the European Cup’s greatest record had it not been for the rise of one its greatest teams. A brilliant Barcelona have now denied him twice. How Ferguson reacts to that challenge is going to be revealing.
Because, so far, his career has been characterised by eventually beating off all-comers: the Old Firm, Kenny Dalglish’s Blackburn, Kevin Keegan’s Newcastle, Arsene Wenger’s Arsenal, Jose Mourinho’s Chelsea, Carlo Ancelotti’s Chelsea. He’s won almost every trophy possible in almost every way possible: with adventure, with caution, by romping home, by just making it over the line, with power, with poise. No other has proved as durable, as adaptable, as dogged or – ultimately – as successful. The fact he’s still competing for the game’s top prizes three decades after winning his first is the ultimate evidence of that. And the caveat that he’s not finished yet makes it all the more formidable.
Career East Sterlingshire 1974; St Mirren 1974-78; Aberdeen 1978-86; Scotland 1985-86; Manchester United 1986-
Trophies 2 Champions Leagues; 2 Cup Winners Cups; 15 domestic titles (12 England, 3 Scotland); 14 domestic cups
6. Bob Paisley
Points 1665
Nationality English
For nine years, Paisley enjoyed a near-perfect managerial career. He remains the Champions League’s most successful coach with three trophies.
And nor was it just a case of continuing another man’s work.
Despite the foundations Bill Shankly had put in place and so much talk of the Boot Room, it is often underestimated just how much Paisley enhanced that culture. He was much more than a soft, safe pair of hands. If the history of Liverpool between 1959 and 1990 was one long period of evolution, Paisley’s appointment marked something of a Cambrian explosion.
As stated elsewhere on this site, he turned a club that were regular winners into relentless winners. And he did so by unveiling an authoritative streak underneath an initially avuncular and occasionally incoherent exterior.
While not a Churchillian motivator, he had an understated understanding of psychology which got the very best out of the vast majority of his players. Likewise, Paisley was often loath to discuss ‘tactics’. “I didn’t talk tactics because I wasn’t taught tactics. I was merely advised on certain things about my game.”
But that couldn’t cover an innate comprehension of the flow of a game. As Liverpool historian Paul Tomkins has argued “a big part of Paisley’s great tactical brilliance was knowing which players were needed and where they would fit into the team.”
This revealed itself in two areas. On a micro scale, there was his advanced acumen on how to use substitutes. David Fairclough’s super-sub reputation was as much down to Paisley’s nuanced knowledge of how a game would flow as the striker’s own qualities.
On a macro level, there were the continental performances. Paisley gave Liverpool a much more patient and poised approach which resulted in Liverpool’s first European Cup and his own record of three separate trophies. That remains his strongest argument to be considered the greatest coach of all time.
But there are two reasons why he isn’t. Firstly, despite the magnificence of that European Cup record, his season-to-season performances were actually quite mixed. In six seasons competing for the trophy, Liverpool went out in the opening round twice.
But, while that may seem like a very minor caveat, there remains the larger one that he never repeated such success in any other job. And, yes, that may well be down to the fact he never had another job. But, despite his notable improvement of Liverpool, it remains impossible to tell how well he would have done in different circumstances. The same applies to Pep Guardiola at present.
And, as such, it’s also impossible to put Paisley on the top of any such list. But then such words could also be used to describe his scarcely believable run of trophies.
Career Liverpool 1974-83
Trophies 3 European Cups; 1 Uefa Cup; 6 English titles; 3 domestic cups
http://footballpantheon.com/2011/07/the-50-greatest-managers-of-all-time/6/
1. Alex Ferguson
Points 2780
Nationality Scottish
To properly put a list of achievements as lengthy as Alex Ferguson’s into context, it’s possibly best to illustrate the other careers that his own encompasses.
First of all, he did a Brian Clough by breaking the Old Firm’s dominance of Scotland with Aberdeen and even winning a Cup Winners Cup with them. The Real Madrid side he beat in the final had reached the same stage of the European Cup just two years before.
Secondly, he emulated Matt Busby and Bill Shankly by transforming Manchester United from a faded giant to a modern super-club. For those that cavil at the resources Ferguson has enjoyed in contrast to those past masters, it’s worth reflecting that he helped create them.
Finally, he has long surpassed the likes of Bob Paisley, Giovanni Trapattoni and Miguel Munoz as a thoroughly relentless trophy winner.
Indeed, there’s an interesting parallel between Ferguson’s time at United and that of Liverpool’s two giants.
Collectively, Shankly and Paisley were at Liverpool for 24 years. In that time, they won three European Cups, nine domestic titles, two Uefa Cups, two FA Cups and three league cups.
By comparison, Ferguson has been at Old Trafford for 25 years. In that time, he’s won two Champions Leagues, 12 domestic titles, a Cup Winners Cup, five FA Cups and four league cups. If anything, it illustrates the astonishing breadth of Ferguson’s career.
Paisley, of course, has that extra European Cup that Ferguson doesn’t. And it’s that continental record that has always been the one major caveat to his CV. But, when pointed out, it’s also usually a caveat devoid of proper context.
After all, Ferguson has still won as many European trophies in total as any other manager. What’s more, the exact length of his career has thrown up an unprecedented number of challenges. Having finally overcome the hangover from the Heysel ban, Ferguson then created his greatest teams during the most competitive period of the Champions League’s history. As barely needs repeating, no club has retained the trophy since Ferguson first entered the competition. They days of racking up rallies are long gone.
And yet, still, Ferguson might have forged the European Cup’s greatest record had it not been for the rise of one its greatest teams. A brilliant Barcelona have now denied him twice. How Ferguson reacts to that challenge is going to be revealing.
Because, so far, his career has been characterised by eventually beating off all-comers: the Old Firm, Kenny Dalglish’s Blackburn, Kevin Keegan’s Newcastle, Arsene Wenger’s Arsenal, Jose Mourinho’s Chelsea, Carlo Ancelotti’s Chelsea. He’s won almost every trophy possible in almost every way possible: with adventure, with caution, by romping home, by just making it over the line, with power, with poise. No other has proved as durable, as adaptable, as dogged or – ultimately – as successful. The fact he’s still competing for the game’s top prizes three decades after winning his first is the ultimate evidence of that. And the caveat that he’s not finished yet makes it all the more formidable.
Career East Sterlingshire 1974; St Mirren 1974-78; Aberdeen 1978-86; Scotland 1985-86; Manchester United 1986-
Trophies 2 Champions Leagues; 2 Cup Winners Cups; 15 domestic titles (12 England, 3 Scotland); 14 domestic cups
6. Bob Paisley
Points 1665
Nationality English
For nine years, Paisley enjoyed a near-perfect managerial career. He remains the Champions League’s most successful coach with three trophies.
And nor was it just a case of continuing another man’s work.
Despite the foundations Bill Shankly had put in place and so much talk of the Boot Room, it is often underestimated just how much Paisley enhanced that culture. He was much more than a soft, safe pair of hands. If the history of Liverpool between 1959 and 1990 was one long period of evolution, Paisley’s appointment marked something of a Cambrian explosion.
As stated elsewhere on this site, he turned a club that were regular winners into relentless winners. And he did so by unveiling an authoritative streak underneath an initially avuncular and occasionally incoherent exterior.
While not a Churchillian motivator, he had an understated understanding of psychology which got the very best out of the vast majority of his players. Likewise, Paisley was often loath to discuss ‘tactics’. “I didn’t talk tactics because I wasn’t taught tactics. I was merely advised on certain things about my game.”
But that couldn’t cover an innate comprehension of the flow of a game. As Liverpool historian Paul Tomkins has argued “a big part of Paisley’s great tactical brilliance was knowing which players were needed and where they would fit into the team.”
This revealed itself in two areas. On a micro scale, there was his advanced acumen on how to use substitutes. David Fairclough’s super-sub reputation was as much down to Paisley’s nuanced knowledge of how a game would flow as the striker’s own qualities.
On a macro level, there were the continental performances. Paisley gave Liverpool a much more patient and poised approach which resulted in Liverpool’s first European Cup and his own record of three separate trophies. That remains his strongest argument to be considered the greatest coach of all time.
But there are two reasons why he isn’t. Firstly, despite the magnificence of that European Cup record, his season-to-season performances were actually quite mixed. In six seasons competing for the trophy, Liverpool went out in the opening round twice.
But, while that may seem like a very minor caveat, there remains the larger one that he never repeated such success in any other job. And, yes, that may well be down to the fact he never had another job. But, despite his notable improvement of Liverpool, it remains impossible to tell how well he would have done in different circumstances. The same applies to Pep Guardiola at present.
And, as such, it’s also impossible to put Paisley on the top of any such list. But then such words could also be used to describe his scarcely believable run of trophies.
Career Liverpool 1974-83
Trophies 3 European Cups; 1 Uefa Cup; 6 English titles; 3 domestic cups
gohan
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to be fair that's just as rose tinted as Scouse...... one is over a 9 year period one is over a 38 year period and although his career is 4 times as long his points are less than double..... of those 38 years 26 are at united.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying paisley IS better, but just that the stats you've posted don't make Fergie look better
cHodAX
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Better than Fergies 6 titles in 8 years?
Bob was 6 in 9 right? Just doing what you are doing, taking the information that I think looks favourable and posting it in the best light.
End of the day I will leave it to the neutral to decide and if you actually go and read Football Pantheon instead of saying it is rose tinted (without actually reading the article! norty norty!
) then you will see it is very much written from a neutral perspective.
gohan
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A. I havn't said a word so I'm doing nothing in terms of statsBetter than Fergies 6 titles in 8 years?
Just doing what you are doing, taking the information that I think looks favourable and posting it in the best light.
End of the day I will leave it to the neutral to decide and if you actually go and read Football Pantheon instead of saying it is rose tinted (without actually reading the article! norty norty!
B. the rankings on that site are done in terms of points, Fergie has 2780 in 38 years compared to paisley who has 1665 in 9 years, so year on year your own stats back paisley.
that's all I'm saying, and it's pure fact that can't be argued, I havn't given an opinion of who's better, it's impossible to say, different eras differnt jobs
cHodAX
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It's a Rafa fact! It denies rational logic in favor of picking the numbers you prefer to see but not putting them into thier proper context. So I stand by what I said on the suject but much more importantly I point to the horde of neutrals who refer to his as the greatest manager of all time.
gohan
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wow I though better of you tbh, you're either completely retarded or just being a prick on purpose. Check what I've said as I'm not gonna repeat it, at not point have I said Fergie isn't the best, only the stats you've put foward for your arguement are flawed
It's really not a difficult concept to follow
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I'm watching the liverpool-everton match so I'll respond to just one thing:
In a knockout competition that you had to win your league to qualify for...
In a knockout competition that you had to win your league to qualify for...
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Because the stats show the truth...
cHodAX
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How are they flawed? Because Fergie didn't die after nine years in the main job? That seems to be the logic of the arguement that comes from many Liverpool fans, if Paisley had lived longer he would have won more than Fergie. Brian Clough would probably have something to say about that if he was still alive. As I have said before it is all a matter of perspective, United fans want to see it from our side and Liverpool fans from thiers, the neutrals get the deciding vote and 9 times of out 10 they come out in favour of Fergie.
cHodAX
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Another little stat, in the 24 years of Shankley/Paisley you won 9 league titles, in 25 years Fergie won 12. If we are playing the numbers game then you have to take that one into account as well.
gohan
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they are flawed because... get this right... see if you can follow....
the ranking is purely on overall points......
if paisley had done lets say 36 years for ease compared to fergies 38 then he would have 6660 points compared to fergies 2780, that's over double and in 2 years less.........
your argument is like saying Heskey (151 goals in 17 years) is a better player than Cantona (73 goals in 5 years in prem) over 3 times the time palying in prem for only double the goals........ but time doesn't matter right? its results that count? so Heskey > Cantona yea?
